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Posted: 11/20/2003 8:52:23 AM EDT
[#1]
They don't really compare.
I don't know how you would compare them. The LMT product is deffinitely a sturdier settup, there's no play when the upper and RAS are one piece. They probably cool similarly, the MRP has an edge (as it is a huge heat sink) but the SIR has a polymer handguard that doesn't transmit heat as easilly if you are testing "felt heat" and not barrel temperature. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 9:25:21 AM EDT
[#2]
The MRP is sturdy by being one piece but isn't very modular and is very expensive.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 9:39:50 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: The MRP is sturdy by being one piece but isn't very modular and is very expensive. Ha ha.. AR owners are getting pretty demanding.. It used to be enough to make the rifle modular by adding a rail system..Now we demand that the rail system itself be modular?[}:)] |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 10:39:09 AM EDT
[#4]
Definitely comparing apples and oranges between these two setups.
Pointless Info ARMS are bi-level rail (except for the #45 and #46) systems which uses a std. barrel nut and barrel. Some require the removal of the delta ring assembly (M versions). The MRP is a continuous rail system that uses a proprietary barrel and locking system for the purpose of quick change barrel systems. End of Pointless Info Good luck |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 1:14:13 PM EDT
[#5]
The MRP is obviously most rigid system put there and allows quick change of barrels/cal. The problem is that any alum. rail is going to atract heat and it is no longer a heat sink when you cover the alum. rail with a non heat transfering panel. The SIR will cool faster, and keep from getting hot to the hand a lot longer, simply because there is no alum attached to and under the SIR's lower handguard.
The SIR is also made to allow intergrated wiring that no other set up has. Those threaded holes along each side of the SIR is where the plug in sockets go. The SIR is made for the future war fighting intergrated electronic's, I havn't yet seen another that is. The MRP is the most advanced of the non intergrated electronic ability type, and still from the old school of thought where eletro optics must all have thier own individual battery supply. That is a problem if one devices batteries die, it can effect another device that is supposed to work with it, such as laser and a N.V. device. Automobiles have one battery and generating power supply. can you imagine how it would be if cars were set up like current rifles are? A battery for the head light, one for the horn, another for the wipers, back up lights, dome light, etc. Cars have wiring harnesses and outlets. The SIRS are set up for those abilities. An auxilery power supply goes on that very small dovetail on the left hand side of the recever that is also the clamping bar. Those of us that already have SIR's will be able to get some neet things in the future. With all the wt. in the current devices that must include batteries, we will have very light wt. weapons, since we won't need so many batteries. The electronic devices will then be able to be smaller, because the wiring harness will feed the electrinics. This is not wishfull thinking and ARMS would not have gone to all the effort if these things were not comming. Good shooti, Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 1:25:30 PM EDT
[#6]
How hard would it be to make KAC style Pannel with a wireing harness and a plug? Where there is a will there is a way.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 1:34:13 PM EDT
[#7]
VERY difficult and impractical since the alum gets so hot that the panels are attached to, that the panels get so hot ya can't hold them either. Where would the power supply be, can't be were the barrel and handguards are, unless a huge hand guard was used, and then that would no go.
Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 1:45:41 PM EDT
[#8]
All I'm saying is that if and when the need arises the boys at KAC will step up to the plate like they always have.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 2:01:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Maybe so, but so far only the people at ARMS have developed anything that is that far advanced for electronic's. Maybe, would of, should of, could of, isn't what we are talking about, just what has been done between the two systems that are in advance of anything out here in the two dif catagories. LMT's great MRP and ARMS great SIR, both with completly dif. methods, and obviously from what I have seen, the leaders in the engineering effort race., and dif. abilities.
Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:13:26 PM EDT
[#10]
The flip side is:
ONE bad/dead battery pack also disables all available devices! A central shorted wire (power) bus will render all devices inoperable even with a good/charged battery pack! Be careful what you wish for. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#11]
IT's not a battery pack, they show a mini Dynamo that recharges the batteries via enertia and a mechanical back up lever.. And I do wish it was available to me right now for sure.
Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:37:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Sounds interesting, built in redundancy?
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:48:42 PM EDT
[#13]
This is a little off topic but since when does that stop anybody? Have any of you guys read about the new mini rotory engines/generators that are predictide to someday replace batteries. They run off of propane or butane and they already have prototypes that are the size of "a small stack of pennies". I also heard that in the next year there is supposed to be a lap top computer that runs off of propane. I think the article was in popular science or popular mechanic. Anybody else heard of this.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:52:39 PM EDT
[#14]
YEP, just like our aircraft, just like the bolt foward assist. Nice to have when/if ya need it. These new computor chips are in all our other military equipment and now it's time for the weapon/devices.. About time.
Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 4:56:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Orrigianly Posted by 3rdtk
"The problem is that any alum. rail is going to atract heat and it is no longer a heat sink when you cover the alum. rail with a non heat transfering panel" AND "the alum gets so hot that the panels are attached to, that the panels get so hot ya can't hold them either." So which is it? Are the KAC pannels supper isulators that trap heat and cook the barrel or are they supper heat conductors that transmit all heat dirrectly too your hand? Can't have it both ways. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:10:34 PM EDT
[#16]
There is not two ways, just one fact. Obviously you haven't fired enough FA, so I will explain what others here have also explained. There is a point that the alum rail(contacting) the panels, get so hot because the heat has no place to go but into the panel. The panels cannot stay cool very long before they can no longer be held due to the heat coming thru. That's when the pistol grip came into vogue as a necessity.
Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:25:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Back to the LMT and ARMS products quetion. I like both for dif. reasons like others do. I'd like to see a high bred with the LMT using a SIR lower hand guard and selective rails. I'd like to see a SIR having a QD barrel set up available:)
Just tryin to make trouble:) Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:30:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: That's when the pistol grip came into vogue as a necessity. Good shootin, Jack Well I dont think we should go that far, as unaesthical as they are they solve many issues other than heat transfer. As a side note - I left two SIR carbines and 4 other MWS rail equipped handguards in the sun this summer - after a few minutes all of them were too hot to hold comfortablely - plastic or alum parts... We wear gloves for reasons. -Kevin |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:31:10 PM EDT
[#19]
No, the forward pistol grip "came into vogue" by being the best way to increase first hit probability.
The reason no one has jumped on the RAS-integrated-electronics issue has to do with the fact that there are no commonly available accessories available for this type of system yet. That is a much larger bite to chew. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:35:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: There is not two ways, just one fact. Obviously you haven't fired enough FA, so I will explain what others here have also explained. as a necessity. Good shootin, Jack Lighten up. I was just pushing your buttons, you little A.R.M.S. nazi. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:45:50 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm waiting to see who wins the military SOPMOD II contract. Should be interesting.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 5:57:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I'm waiting to see who wins the military SOPMOD II contract. Should be interesting. ARMS lost and it's their pissing and moaning that is holding up the show -- or so I hear. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 6:30:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: ...I'd like to see a high bred with the LMT using a SIR lower hand guard and selective rails. I'd like to see a SIR having a QD barrel set up available:) Just tryin to make trouble:) Jack You must have read my mind. :) |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 7:26:04 PM EDT
[#24]
If someone wants to believe propaganda to why the pistol grips became needed, other than the truth about the heat, that's fine. But explain why they don't use them if they can get rid of the the heat, and go to free float to boot. I was there and know what the heat proplem solution was, and the gloves were not thick enough to help on full auto heat transfer protection once the panels got too hot to hold.
I don't hear anyone pissing and moaning on hear except certain folk and it isn't who you accuse. Jack |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 8:04:03 PM EDT
[#25]
So Jack, it has NOTHING to do with losing the ability to use the handguard on an M4 when a flashlight and a PEQ are mounted?
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Posted: 11/21/2003 4:56:55 AM EDT
[#26]
I always thought it was to offset the weight of all those forend mounted techno-gadgets (PEQ, Flashlight, ect.) [;D]
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Posted: 11/21/2003 7:44:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: If someone wants to believe propaganda to why the pistol grips became needed, other than the truth about the heat, that's fine. But explain why they don't use them if they can get rid of the the heat, and go to free float to boot. I was there and know what the heat proplem solution was, and the gloves were not thick enough to help on full auto heat transfer protection once the panels got too hot to hold. You're a lost cause, you know that? If you really know as much as you claim, you'd know that what I stated has nothing to do with propaganda. It was a finding in an actual government funded-study. It also pre-dated the effort from Benning that eventually led to the SIR and RAS II. Just because the .gov selected the RAS instead of your Rigid Frame concept "way back when" you still have a beef, apparently. And I understand... Alot of money was at stake. Funny, too that you of all people have the balls to bitch about propoganda... Not a day goes by that you aren't on here cheerleading your own company. I don't hear anyone pissing and moaning on hear except certain folk and it isn't who you accuse. Jack Of the two languages I speak, whatever you said doesn't fit into either one... Besides, the only one who ever seems to piss and moan under these kinds of topics is YOU, you hack. Learn to read: then you won't have to file action when your submission to the RIS II requirement is thrown out. Learn to write: so when you do file said action people take you more seriously. High Bred is hybrid, and hear is here. Clint sends... |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 5:29:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Lumpy
Nope, if you look back there was no real flash light consideration at that time. The Flashlights started to come a couple years later led by Surefire for new requirements being developed for limited purpose, most militaty units do not need or want flashlights on the weapon. The PEQ2 used a pressure switch that could be placed anywhere the soldier wanted it, and is still the predominant method. ON A DIFFERENT NOTE: I find it humorous, yet pathetic how a certain very few from a certain company start throwing personal attacks at someone they prob. don't even know, and sure don't know me, just because I provide verifiable facts about equipment, not attacks on personalities or people. I guess they can't refute engineering factual history, so attack the messenger due to their frustrations in providing futuristic engineering such as found at LMT and ARMS, sad. Back in the early ninties, the RIS was not selected against anything else, it was the only thing being submitted, since ARMS did not continue in that program by their choice. By the way, why don't you talk about the rigid frame being a FREE FLOAT SYSTEM WAY BACK THEN. Also having a built-in wiring harnesses, battery compartments, a laser built into it's nose, no, it didn't loose out to rails attached to the barrel, ARMS withdrew it even though the infantry school said they wanted it, picatinny funded it until ARMS withdrew, etc. Dealing in some of these programs is very costly for any company and the majority of companies that make rails today do not even submit to gov't programs. I'm glad that ARMS, LMT, and Daniel Defense did decide to go thru all the gov't hurdles. If certain people from a certain other company that can't stand competition from real innovators, then they should do some real innovation themselves, and not make false personal attacks and accusations, instead of discussing hardware attributes. By the way, since my spellin rot, if I choose to use spell check, will it mean that my info. is going to be better undertstood? Good Shootin anyway, Jack. |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 5:55:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: most militaty units do not need or want flashlights on the weapon. Now Jack, Im going to have to disagree with you on that. Surefires appear to be in HEAVY use with most of the Army units in Iraq. There is certainly ample evidence of that, even in regular units. |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 6:09:29 PM EDT
[#30]
LUMY,
The units you see in the city mostly doing building searches are the ones that would have them more often, and that is where the press is. The cave guys and spec ops will also have them, but the reg. infantry doesn't. You will see a lot of M16A2's out there that don't even have rails for attaching anything. The infantry go prone a heck of a lot more than the city guys with a wall to use for cover, plus closer in fighting. Flashlights way out in the field are not pactical as a rule, but the enemy sure would like us to have them intermittingly turned on during action and patroling. Jack |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 6:10:16 PM EDT
[#31]
LUMPY,< SORRY
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Posted: 11/21/2003 6:11:08 PM EDT
[#32]
ERRRR>PATROLLING, damn beer!
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Posted: 11/21/2003 6:14:57 PM EDT
[#33]
A flashlight is an essential item with any weapon. I have done searches with a maglight guntaped - 100mph tape to y'all :) to my handguard. Any of the current MWS rails from KAC, ARMS, PRI or now it looks like LMT will be a 100% increase in the low light capability of the user.
Unfortunately as soldiers we dont always have the luxury of picking our AOR's. So sometimes we bring items that we currently do not need for contingency planning. We bring NV and PEQ2's even when we dont think we will be out after dark. Not wanting to this be a total pick on Jack day, but dont you crow about the SIR for having the ability to remove the rail when not needed? - the same goes for any MWS accessory. -KEvin |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 6:42:49 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm not talking about anything except to the question reguarding flashlights on weapons, regardless of the rail. Most US toops do not have a flashlight attached to thier weapon.
Jack |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 7:37:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Maybe if ARMS had concentrated more on making the SIR's top rail a same plane continuous rail instead of a raised one, they wouldn't have lost out on the SOPMOD II. They spent too much time on figuring out how to fit a single source power source into the SIR system when such a power source is still a few years off from production much less being fielded. By the time such a power source would be ready for issuing and then approved to be fielded, a "SOPMOD III" and "RIS III" programs would probably have already been initiated. I would be willing to bet it would be easier for KAC to integrate a power source into the URX than it would be to adapt the existing SIR design to a same plane top rail.
As far as infantry soldiers and flashlights. Just because they don't have them, doesn't mean they don't want them. The problem is most likely with the higher ups not wanting to issue them. Jack must really be in R&D because he is not in touch with what troops really want and what they really need and need now. Instead of asking what others want, he tells them what he thinks they need. |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 8:13:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Seriously, the same units the marched across the deserts of Iraq for the most part were the same ones that were in and around Baghdad. There are NUMEROUS pictures of units like the 3rd ID, with the at least 1/2 of the soldiers having Surefires on their M4's and M16A4s.
I doubt seriously the military issues or allows flashlights based on what units MIGHT be doing MOUT. I think its a little too fluid for that. |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 8:45:44 PM EDT
[#37]
WHAT SOLDIERS WANT IS NOT THE ISSUE, WHAT THEY HAVE WAS/IS THE SUBJECT!!!!
SINCE THE ABOVE ANSWER IS AN ACCURATE ONE TO A NON ACCURATE STATEMENT, I CONTINUE TO WRITE IN LARGE LETTERING TO HELP WITH THE ACCURATE INFO/OBSERVATIONS TO FOLLOW SO ANYONE CAN SEE WHAT IT SAYS. IT IS AMAZING THAT SOMEONE IS ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE AS TO WHERE ALL ADVANCED PROPRIETARY TECHNOLOGY CURRENTLY STANDS, AND HOW THEY CAN PREDICT WHEN THE HIGH TECH ELECTRO/OPTEC COMPANIES WILL HAVE SOMETHING AVAILABLE FOR THE SOLDIERS. CRYSTAL BALL I GUESS. HOW CAN ANYONE HAVE LOST SOMETHING IF A WINNER HASN'T BEEN ANNOUNCED? I ASSUME THAT IF SOMEONE ELSE HAD A WAY TO PROVIDE A POWER SOURCE AND WIRING HARNES ABILITY, THEY WOULD HAVE SUBMITTED IT NOW, NOT YEARS LATTER. THE SIRS HAVE CERTAIN VERY GREAT ATTRIBUTES, THAT OTHERS DON'T, TO INCLUDE STRAIT PLANE RAILS THAT ARE VERY MUCH LOWER THAN WHERE THE CARRY HANDLE USED TO PLACE THINGS, I WOULDN'T COUNT ANYONE OUT, AS ALL CONTENDERS HAVE PLUSS'S AND MINUSES. SINCE I ALSO DON'T HAVE INSIDE INFO, "THAT OTHERS MAY CLAIM", OR A CRYSTAL BALL SAYING WHO IS GOING TO WIN, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT WOULD BE WISE FOR ONE CERTAIN CONTENDER TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT FINELY HAPPENS. IT ALSO AMMUSES ME HOW THE MOST HIGH TECH CAPABLE SYSTEM FOR THE FUTURE IS ATTACKED FROM THE ONE THAT ISN'T, YET THE M16 HAD THE SAME THING FROM THE OLD WOOD STOCK RIFLE GOUPIES DIDN"T THEY:) GOOD SHOOTIN, JACK |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 9:10:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Jack,
I think you are the one that split the thread - as you went on to promote the ARMS AMPS. I have several concerns about a single source power supply for all my weapon accessory needs, but it would simplify things. Until I see the ARMS M203 adaptor and the LMT EGLM - I am still sold on the URXII and KAC's EGLM. -KEvin |
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Posted: 11/21/2003 10:18:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: most militaty units do not need or want flashlights on the weapon. Jack, when you made the above statement, you made it about what the soldiers want and (apparently) about what you think they need. Quoted: IT IS AMAZING THAT SOMEONE IS ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE AS TO WHERE ALL ADVANCED PROPRIETARY TECHNOLOGY CURRENTLY STANDS, AND HOW THEY CAN PREDICT WHEN THE HIGH TECH ELECTRO/OPTEC COMPANIES WILL HAVE SOMETHING AVAILABLE FOR THE SOLDIERS. CRYSTAL BALL I GUESS. Not a crystal ball. Just an educated guess based upon what O know of the state of such technologies and the bureaucray usually involved in getting such a device adopted as well as the intensive and extensive T&E by the end users (not the lab techs) before they would take such a device into action. Quoted: HOW CAN ANYONE HAVE LOST SOMETHING IF A WINNER HASN'T BEEN ANNOUNCED? Well, I would have to assume (yes, Jack, I know what happens when one assumes)ARMS would not have made such a big commotion about things if they weren't told the SIR didn't meet requirements (the aforementioned same plane continuous rail). I believe the SOPMOD II (specifcally RIS II) specs called for a continuous rail on the same plane as the upper receiver rail. None of the SIR units meets this specification. Quoted: I ASSUME THAT IF SOMEONE ELSE HAD A WAY TO PROVIDE A POWER SOURCE AND WIRING HARNES ABILITY, THEY WOULD HAVE SUBMITTED IT NOW, NOT YEARS LATTER. I don't know if anyone has a way or not. However, it is not specified by any current program (at least not one concerning the SOPMOD II), so such an ability is a nonfactor. Regardless of whether or not anyone currently has a method of integrating a power source to their system, when the time such a feature is specified, they most likely will include it. Quoted: THE SIRS HAVE CERTAIN VERY GREAT ATTRIBUTES, THAT OTHERS DON'T, TO INCLUDE STRAIT PLANE RAILS THAT ARE VERY MUCH LOWER THAN WHERE THE CARRY HANDLE USED TO PLACE THINGS, I WOULDN'T COUNT ANYONE OUT, AS ALL CONTENDERS HAVE PLUSS'S AND MINUSES. I never said the SIR doesn't have great attributes, it does. Quoted: SINCE I ALSO DON'T HAVE INSIDE INFO, "THAT OTHERS MAY CLAIM", OR A CRYSTAL BALL SAYING WHO IS GOING TO WIN, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT WOULD BE WISE FOR ONE CERTAIN CONTENDER TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT FINELY HAPPENS. I never claimed anything. I am merely making educated guesses from everything I have observed. You're right, we don't know who is going to win. We'll have to wait and see if crying and pouting like a child gets Dick Swan and his associates the SOPMOD II contract. Quoted: IT ALSO AMMUSES ME HOW THE MOST HIGH TECH CAPABLE SYSTEM FOR THE FUTURE IS ATTACKED FROM THE ONE THAT ISN'T, YET THE M16 HAD THE SAME THING FROM THE OLD WOOD STOCK RIFLE GOUPIES DIDN"T THEY:) It also amuses me that someone who claims to test and evaluate equipment in order to find the best gear for this country's fighting men and women can let his/her/their clear bias stand in the way of procuring what our troopers and operators want and need (made to the specs set forth by actual operator input) in order to do the best job possible and get them home alive. |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 6:25:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Maybe so, but so far only the people at ARMS have developed anything that is that far advanced for electronic's. Maybe, would of, should of, could of, isn't what we are talking about, just what has been done between the two systems that are in advance of anything out here in the two dif catagories...yada...yada...yada...yada...and ARMS great SIR, both with completly dif. methods, and obviously from what I have seen, the leaders in the engineering effort race., and dif. abilities. Good shootin, Dick Don't be so sure Jack. We (KAC) have done everything you dream of several times over. Problem is with the single power source thing and wiring "hot shoe" plug ins, or whatever, is that all the accessory guys would need to be in one boat. And you would need "electrical equipment repairmen" along with your armorers. Sort of what happened when we replaced a "mechanical" 90mm recoiless rifle with a "Dragon Missle". Another issue is that currently, these combat enhancing modules like those in the SOPMOD Kit, are comming out of the commercial market place/individual "nitch" companies, without any USGov R&D investment. This is called NDI or none developmental item. And this is the primary equipment acquisition method in use today, and even SOCOM's new 5.56 & 7.62 machine guns were procured this way, even though machineguns have a lot less commercial applicability than flashlights and lasers. So with a universally approved, functioning, and now internation rail design in place, user's can pick & choose the newest or the bestest as these modules come along. And in addition, inventive "module" guys know what to mate their stuff to. That is how to keep your modular weapon up to date, and how to maintain your Soldier's current "tactical dominance" on the battlefield. Granted, this NDI method will continue to "fragmment" accessory develpoment so-to-speak, but it also lets the User pick & choose what he needs and when he needs it. That's called flexibility, and right now, I see that as a better solution. For example, the AA Battery or the 123 Lith. are now the common power sources for all this stuff and these are readily available almost anywhere, so maybe lets wait, and not Dick it up yet. Better wait to see if it breaks before we KAC it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 11:19:27 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: The MRP is sturdy by being one piece but isn't very modular and is very expensive. By being capapable of countless current and future bbl. configurations as well as the ability of being able to mount anything anywhere on the reciever and forearm I would suggest this is at the apex of modularity as it stands now. As far as a lack of lower rail removal? KAC and LMT have this covered apparently as it only seems to concern the GL issue. |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 1:20:52 PM EDT
[#42]
A single power source also means single point failture. A powerpack that becomes defective renders all devices that rely on it unusable. I can only draw parallel from my IT profession, most mission critical (I'd think a soldier/Marine/airman's personal weapon as mission critical) devices such as enterprise level routers, switches and servers all have some built-in redundancy, or fail-over, so a single component that's prone to fail (like power supply, disk drives) cannot effectively kill that device.
And so in solving a problem that seems to be a non-issue, it creates setbacks of its own. |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 1:52:04 PM EDT
[#43]
I agree with that. If I am to use a single power source, I would insist upon a secondary backup powersource in case the first one fails. I would rather have one component fail than all at once unless I had an instant backup. To me, it's worth the extra weight. As devices are coming to standards in powercells, one could even swap power cells within devices and keep what's critical working. It's heavier, but safer. But I suppose it's all up to mission requirements and personal opinions.
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Posted: 11/22/2003 4:54:27 PM EDT
[#44]
The Rigid frame from ARMS demo'd back in about 1990, had a redundant power supply, much like an aircraft. Their brochure showed two dif built in battery compartments, plus a small power supply on the left hand side of the receiver. It did work the laser in salt fog tests, etc. Back a few years at a Shot show they showed another neat working tiny concept laser, it had no batteries in the laser housing, instead it was powered by attaching it via a throw lever to a powered dovetail rail that looked like a #38S-ex. It was in a large fish tank with fish swimming all around it. It was obviously very water proof, and fun to watch the fish going crazy trying to bite the lasers red dot. I don't see anyone even close to being as advanced as ARMS in the high tech inovation/intergation arena.
I'm always ammazed and happy to see that some companies go ahead and get the advanced abilities accomplished, and don't make excuses. The SIR system is obviously set up for those high tech items when they are released, reguardless of nay sayers. Good Shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 5:12:37 PM EDT
[#45]
(I hate doing the whole "my friend thing, but here goes) A logistics/acquisition/purchasing friend of mine in Germany told me some interesting stuff. Essentially what she explained to me is that the .gov has only purchased something like 115 SIRs from ARMS. And the funnier part is that theyre all in Guam or some other non combat area. Also, it seems any ARMS product that is seen in a soldiers hand was a personally purchased unit at a highly discounted price.
Enough about that, time to hang a bunch of crap off my RAS II. |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 5:42:45 PM EDT
[#46]
LOL, Germany is at the heart of lodgistic's of supply. Obviously he isn't aware of what is out there, Guam is mostly AIRFORCE, and maybe he ran a credit card for them. He must have missed the pic posted with lots of troops trained by US spec ops in the Philipines, marching in some kind of parade there. The fact is there are all kinds of ways the gov't buy various products from all dif. companies, and some guy in Germany sure isn't in a position to know much, other than what comes across his desk one desk.
Jack |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 9:28:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Maybe Dicky Boy only sold a handful of SIRS to the Germans, offered them at a discount price to get rid of his overstock, that's not selling.
For those wondering here's, Jack's early attempts of designing the bulkiest handguard ever made. LS [img]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/18991swan.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 9:39:47 PM EDT
[#48]
OUCH, I'd seen pics but nothing that made it look that godawful before.
Personally I think the ARMS APMS system has some promise - it would be easier to carry two or three of these than several AA's and 123 lithiums BUT in my mind as far as a intergrated wiring system goes you end up sacrifising the modularity that the M16 system thrives on. |
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Posted: 11/23/2003 5:55:21 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Also, it seems any ARMS product that is seen in a soldiers hand was a personally purchased unit at a highly discounted price. ARMS gives a 10% discount to active duty military .... I wouldn't say "highly", but a good discount that I appreciate and didn't pass up! [;)] BTW, if the SIR isn't officially adopted, does that mean there's something wrong with it? Chris |
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Posted: 11/23/2003 11:16:14 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Quoted: Also, it seems any ARMS product that is seen in a soldiers hand was a personally purchased unit at a highly discounted price. ARMS gives a 10% discount to active duty military .... I wouldn't say "highly", but a good discount that I appreciate and didn't pass up! [;)] BTW, if the SIR isn't officially adopted, does that mean there's something wrong with it? Chris Althought I must admit not being a 100% fan of the SIR, I do agree with Chris above. 1) Good on ARMS for discounting item to active military 2) So what if it was a personal item - if the soldier thinks enough about a piece of kit to take it in harms way - then that should enough. Especially for the crowd he goes in harms way for. |
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