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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/27/2005 10:44:36 PM EDT
To recap (so new readers are up to snuff) I finally got a chance to take my new BM A2M4gery of a 16" Patrolmans Carbine to it's first cherry popp'in range session and it went as follows...

The first 6 shots went just dandy...as it fed, fired, extracted and ejected just fine as I grinned thinking I had a great runner here but then?...

Shots 7-10: extracted but failed to EJECT... feeding the following live round up under the bottom of the spent and extracted but not ejected and now jammed casing then?...

Shots 11-13: Failed to Extract all together...with the bolt running the following live round straight into the rear of the still chambered but already fired spent brass...however...clearing these three jams was no problem by simply dropping the mag, clearing the fed live round and then manually retracting the charging handle and letting it slam home and then upon manual retraction of the charging handle the extractor would successfully extract the spent casing...however....things deteriorated from there...whereby...

Shots 14-20: using two other mags (3rds in each one) all failed to EXTRACT....even when employing the secondary process of letting the bolt slam home manually and all 6 wound up getting easily pushed out (with nearly no pressure) via a rod down the barrel...and that's when I wrapped it up and went home.

Now...I've gotten a wide variety of many great suggestions and have been racking my brain employing the process of elimination and doing some heavy research while trying to stay focused on what I now believe is the primary issue here...the issue that after 6 good shots constantly and consistantly degraded to the point of sending me and my new befiddled M4gery home after firing just 20 shots...and that issue is "Failure To Extract".

I ruled out "Gas Tube Problems" as the gas tube would have nothing to do with fact that at one point I could manully extract by letting the bolt slam home yet a few rounds later?...I couldn't even achieve that...and the gas tube would have nothing to do with such folley.

Next I ruled out any "Headspace Issues" as there were no failures to feed, chamber, lock and fire and the primers of the spent brass appeared appeared as though the firing pin was doing a fine and appropriate job of puching the primers....well centered...not too shallow and not too deep...all seemed just fine there.

So the process of elimination led me right back to the primary and in-my-face problem..."Failure To Extract".

Meanwhile I'm getting some great info and feedback regarding the M4'ish Carbines and "Extractor Springs"....and of course the "Black VS Blue Insert" thread that's been trudging on with a plethora of great 411....and apparently the newer black inserts are of a stronger durometer/compression rate....and many claiming great results with wolf XP extractor springs...with and/or without the inserts...and then I turn to a man's website who's smithing knowledge I have a profound respect for....Les Baer...to review his thoughts and methodology and parts quality (extractor related) in the building of what hew calles his "Ultimate AR .223" series of rifles and low and behold?...Les uses what he's labeled as a "XXP Extractor Spring" in the build of his bolt assys.....and his extractors aren't "forged"...they are machined from solid billet stock and the appropriately heat treated...hmmm....interesting.

Then as an after-thought?...I get to thinking....damn....I wonder if after a few shots my extractor spring sorta "Took A Seat" (so to speak) and then the ejector pin spring simply began to help "OVER-RIDE" my now seated Extractor Spring...as it's glarringly apparent in the "Balck VS Blue Insert" thread that by necessity...over a cumulative amount of years...especially in the M4 type carbines....Numerous AR manufacturers have found it necessary to make their extractor springs and associated inserts.....stronger...and stronger....and stronger yet to the rocky edge of risking extractor failure...where my man Les Baer said damn the weak spring torpedos and screw the forgings...lets go with XXP extractor springs and we'll just fully machine the extractors out of billet to make them stronger as well.

Anybody seeing a trend here besides me?....cause as of this moment?...I'm 99% certain that I THINK I know whats ailing my bushy...and 50% certain of how I'm gonna fix it....might even call off the "Return For Warranty Repair"....so...feel free to express your thoughts here to me gents...am I on track or not?

T.I.A. & L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 11:07:09 PM EDT
Bill, if you'd like to try an experiment please IM or e-mail me with your mailing address. I'll send you a new Colt HD M4 extractor spring and black insert to evaluate.

If it doesn't fix the problem, all I ask is that you mail it back. If it does solve your problem then consider it a free gift from one black rifle lover to another

Deal?

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 11:15:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 11:17:06 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
I'm still thinking you might want to give a 9mm steel buffer a try.

I'm not really sure about the whole spring insert buffer stuff. Especially since some people don't run them at all.

Just my opinion, though.

WIZZO

EDIT: Holy Crap. CJan the Man is coming through again. . This place is great
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 11:15:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Bill, if you'd like to try an experiment please IM or e-mail me with your mailing address. I'll send you a new Colt HD M4 extractor spring and black insert to evaluate.

If it doesn't fix the problem, all I ask is that you mail it back. If it does solve your problem then consider it a free gift from one black rifle lover to another

Deal?




Wow, what a guy!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:21:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Bill, if you'd like to try an experiment please IM or e-mail me with your mailing address. I'll send you a new Colt HD M4 extractor spring and black insert to evaluate.

If it doesn't fix the problem, all I ask is that you mail it back. If it does solve your problem then consider it a free gift from one black rifle lover to another

Deal?




IM Sent and man...thanks brother...ain't got the words so...I'll send cash if it works or not....at least enough for a premium 6-pack.

Thanks again and L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:28:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
I'm still thinking you might want to give a 9mm steel buffer a try.

I'm not really sure about the whole spring insert buffer stuff. Especially since some people don't run them at all.

Just my opinion, though.

WIZZO

EDIT: Holy Crap. CJan the Man is coming through again. . This place is great



Wizzo...I haven't discounted you thoughts on the as it does make perfect sense for increased reliability...but I just haven't gotten the chance to research or hunt down this 9mm Buffer you're talking about.....however...in keeping with your theory?...I did take notice that bushy offers up a "heavy buffer" which they claim is for "Machine Gun Use" and/or?....would the David Tubbs "bolt carrier weight" assy be applicable and/or achieve the same affect?....slowing the inertia/unlock time?....or am I better off to just go hunt down and buy the 9mm buffer?

T.I.A. Bill.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:05:59 AM EDT
What kind of ammo were you using? Wolf, or SA?
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:24:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
What kind of ammo were you using? Wolf, or SA?



Neither...I was using a fresh case of Blackhills Blue Box 55gr FMJ's Remanufactured using once fired, reconditioned, military brass....and again...the FTEx brass wasn't "Stuck"...he11....as soon as the rod so much as "touched it"?....the spent brass would come tumbling out on sheer gravity alone...as in...I probably could've just lightly rapped the butt-stock on the wood bench a time or two and the brass would have fallen out via shock & gravity.

I wish it was "ammo related"....but it ain't.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 1:06:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Wizzo...I haven't discounted you thoughts on the as it does make perfect sense for increased reliability...but I just haven't gotten the chance to research or hunt down this 9mm Buffer you're talking about.....however...in keeping with your theory?...I did take notice that bushy offers up a "heavy buffer" which they claim is for "Machine Gun Use" and/or?....would the David Tubbs "bolt carrier weight" assy be applicable and/or achieve the same affect?....slowing the inertia/unlock time?....or am I better off to just go hunt down and buy the 9mm buffer?

T.I.A. Bill.



The bolt carrier weight would probably result in the same end product as the 9mm buffer. Either way, you're adding more mass to the operating (and moving) parts thus slowing them down and decreasing cycling speed allowing the pressure in the chamber time to drop. If this is the problem, wolf might function in your rifle without any problems because the steel case flexes less and expands less than brass. Therefore the steel case wouldn't be sealed as tight to the chamber as a brass-cased round and should funtion correctly.

Course, I'm just thinking out loud here, so bear with me.

WIZZO

BTW, I have another RRA 9mm buffer on the way from ADCO for $27 or $28 shipped. The other one I have, I bought at a gunshow for $25, so ADCO was a deal.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 3:02:25 PM EDT
How's your gas seal at your FSB? My new Busjy barrel lekaed pretty bad for the first 100 rounds, then sealed up nicely.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:39:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 10:41:11 AM EDT by FUZ1ON]
UPDATE:

ISSUE #1: My FFL Bud got word back this morning from BM's Armorer regarding the first 16" Patrolmans Carbine which suffered the same symptomatic malfuction (from the lot of (3) he purchased together) as mine and the final word/official diagnosis on his was...

A. "A Loose Gas Key"

and...

B. "A Deficient Extractor Spring"

Corrective Action Taken (According to BM's Armorer): Tightened Gas Key And Installed New, More Powerful, Extractor Spring.

And my FFL Bud was all excited to call me with this good news this morning as thanks to the help and suggestions of many fine and knowledgable members here at AFCOM who have been walking me through the trouble-shooting process here?...My FFL Bud was impressed that I had already "Made The Call" on it being an "extractor spring issue" and was happy to inform me that it was now confirmed via "the first sent out carbine" and BM's armory dept. leaving me the open option of repairing it myself or?...sending it back or?....attempting to repair it myself and if things still didn't work out that he'd still send it back for me....and here's the jag...I know for a fact that my gas key is NOT LOOSE....and the gas key bolts are very well staked and so tight that it's like it's welded on there...so that leaves only two possible situations in my mind..and ones "A Definite"...which is "The Extractor Spring"...the other is just a possible and that's a little gas tube leakage at the FSB (like one members already pointed out here) which like the meber who suggested such it's nothing that cycling a 100-200rds wouldn't clear/seal up rendering it a problem which should pretty much resolve itself with 200rds break-in.

Final Decision?: I'll be picking up my Patrolmans Carbine this afternoon from my FFL bud as...I'm NOT sending it back to BM...leastways "not yet" and not for such a petty issue...no reason to be shipping my carbine up and down the eastern seaboard for two weeks over a "weak extractor spring". Annnnd...BM will be shipping my FFL bud a new "replacement extractor spring" to my FFL bud for my carbine....it'll be interesting to see exactly what sort of "replacement" they send....meanwhile I'm praying my man CJan got that badazz offer of a colt HD M4 Ex-Spring w/ Black Insert in the mail today as...I'm gonna have one hell of a "Extractor/Extractor Spring/Bolt Assy" review coming up here within the next week or so as follows...

ISSUE #2: In that upcoming review (I intend to share with you all as a form of thanks for all the help I've recieved here from arfcom) I should have some very interesting "test results" (in the form of both "opinionated text" & "pics") comparing (4) diffent extractor springs (1.BM Stock (which already failed), 2. BM Replacement, 3. CJans Colt HD M4 w/ Black Insert and.....4. LBC "Les Baer Custom" XP extractor springs/spec'ed by Les but supplied by wolff)....annnnd...Two different "Extractors" (1. BM OEM Supplied Stock and 2. LBC Billet Machined Extractor) annnnnnd...(2) different "Complete Bolt Assembles" (1. BM OEM Stock VS 2. LBC)...as today I contacted Les Baer Customs and ordered...

(1) LBC Complete Bolt Assy




A complete precision bolt - the same one used in our Ultimate AR .223 rifles. Includes LBC bolt, Mcfarland single gas ring, extractor, ejector, XXP extractor spring, pins and springs. Available chromed or blued.


(1) LBC Extractor




LBC AR .223 Extractors
These superior extractors are precision machined to exacting tolerances from bar stock, then properly heat treated and shot peened. LBC extractors are available either chrome plated or blued.



(2) LBC/Mcfarland Single Piece Gas Ring

(1) LBC Firing Pin(1) LBC Cam Pin

(1) LBC Cam Retaining Pin

(3) LBC XP Extractor Springs (as they no longer use the XXP claiming they were "Too Strong")

As my devious plan is this....test everything and then in the end?...drop in the LBC Complete Upgraded Bolt Assy w/ Cjans Colt HD M4 Extractor Spring w/ Black Insert and LBC Firing pin and Cam Pin(to be used as "My Primary Bolt Assy") and then?...Upgrade my Stock OEM BM bolt with the LBC Extractor, XP Extractor Spring and Macfarland Single Piece Gas Ring (to be fired, tested and then STOWED as my "Back-Up Bolt Assy".

Sound cool?

So...thanks again and L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:42:35 AM EDT

....meanwhile I'm praying my man CJan got that badazz offer of a colt HD M4 Ex-Spring w/ Black Insert in the mail today as...

As of 9:07AM this morning it's on the way my friend
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:46:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

....meanwhile I'm praying my man CJan got that badazz offer of a colt HD M4 Ex-Spring w/ Black Insert in the mail today as...

As of 9:07AM this morning it's on the way my friend



Cjan...You are "THE MAN"...Thanks Brother!!!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:49:57 AM EDT
I just hope it helps. I don't like seeing someone with a broken rifle-particularly a brand new one

If it fixes the problem I'll hoist a beer (or three) to celebrate our "victory"
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:01:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

....meanwhile I'm praying my man CJan got that badazz offer of a colt HD M4 Ex-Spring w/ Black Insert in the mail today as...

As of 9:07AM this morning it's on the way my friend



Cjan...You are "THE MAN"...Thanks Brother!!!



Yep he definitely is. Chris hooked me up with the right vendor I needed to get the rifle I wanted.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:12:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 12:14:42 PM EDT by mb3]
Check your extractor spring. I had the same issue with a new bolt, after only 40 rounds. I pulled the bolt apart and found my extractor spring compressed to 2/3 its origial size. It had a blue insert which I re-used, and have had no problems sence.
MB
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:50:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:


Cjan...You are "THE MAN"...Thanks Brother!!!




Yes he is, and I have no doubt that he could call in favors from quite the list of people if he desired. I, for one, would only be more than happy to return the favor(s).
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:50:50 PM EDT
On a different note, what happened to the stock?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:56:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
I just hope it helps. I don't like seeing someone with a broken rifle-particularly a brand new one

If it fixes the problem I'll hoist a beer (or three) to celebrate our "victory"



And I hope you'll promise to aqquire those "Victory Libations" with the contents of my intended and immediate rsvp.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:58:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mb3:
Check your extractor spring. I had the same issue with a new bolt, after only 40 rounds. I pulled the bolt apart and found my extractor spring compressed to 2/3 its origial size. It had a blue insert which I re-used, and have had no problems sence.
MB



Yep...it's becoming quite apparent that deficent oem extractor springs/issues AREN'T exactly a "Rare Occurance".
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:00:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
On a different note, what happened to the stock?



stock what?...are you refering to the stock as in "buffer springs/weights"?...or stock extractor spring?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:03:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

....meanwhile I'm praying my man CJan got that badazz offer of a colt HD M4 Ex-Spring w/ Black Insert in the mail today as...

As of 9:07AM this morning it's on the way my friend



Cjan...You are "THE MAN"...Thanks Brother!!!


+1..CJan sent me a bolt catch a while ago for free since mine wasn't working...fixed it right up. One of the nicest guys on the board.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:10:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
On a different note, what happened to the stock?



stock what?...are you refering to the stock as in "buffer springs/weights"?...or stock extractor spring?




Disregard, when I read your thread, I thought somethign had gone wrong with your stock, but you meant the stock spring. One of these days I'll learn to read s l o w l y.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 3:32:38 PM EDT
I had one outing months ago with your same setup. All of a sudden it was as if the rifle was possessed. I couldn't get through a mag without several FTFs, FTEx. I checked the key, the rings, and all of that seemed good. That day i didn't lube it when going out to the range -- I has lubed it from it's previous outing, but that was several weeks prior and I'd dry fired a bunch inbetween outing. The only real difference I've done on subsequent outings is that I lube it up really good with CLP the day I shoot it. Since doing that it runs great.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:05:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 5:08:54 PM EDT by _DR]
I put mine away lubed with so much CLP I have to wipe down the action before I shoot it or I would get a CLP shower. Always runs like a sewing machine though.



Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:47:38 PM EDT
UPDATE II: Picked my carbine up at my FFL buds house earlier this evening and just hadta open'er up for a closer look...I thought I got lucky finding a sliver of brass between the extractor and bolt but...the brass sliver was in the milled recess area and NOT causing the extractor to be jammed outward as there was no contact/witness marks...as such...



On the other hand?...(when assembled)...I could easily push the back side of the extractor to home with thumb pressure and the spring felt sorta mushy...and I'm almost certain that the blue insert was making contact on both sides..."all the time"...when assembled and only had 1 coil past the insert in free state/free length like so....



So it's official...I'm "Waiting Parts".

And since I can't shoot I figured I'd bug you guys with some pix...hey...it beats going crazy alone!!! LOL!!!

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:45:04 AM EDT by slowryde45]

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By mb3:
Check your extractor spring. I had the same issue with a new bolt, after only 40 rounds. I pulled the bolt apart and found my extractor spring compressed to 2/3 its origial size. It had a blue insert which I re-used, and have had no problems sence.
MB



Yep...it's becoming quite apparent that deficent oem extractor springs/issues AREN'T exactly a "Rare Occurance".hinking.gif



+1 for the extractor spring issues.

The Mrs put a Bushy A2 in my Xmas stocking this past year. And No...she's not for sale either nor will I be giving up on her anytime soon. (the Mrs I mean...the Bushy...well....)

But the first time I got to take the Bushy out, I tore it down the night before and lubed it all up with CLP making sure to hit all the right spots.

The next day it was as if FUZ10N was capturing my experiences play by play. Using Black Hills blue box 55gr FMJ, I think I went through the first 10 rounds with no problems. Then just as he described it, I had a spent shell in the chamber and the next round was trying to feed. Dropping the mag, both casings fell right out. So I checked the mag, reinserted and started firing again. Again, about 5 rounds then the FTE. Thinking it might be a mag issue, I switched mags (all brand new Bushy 30rd). After 6 rounds, the same thing. So I thought maybe it was a break-in thing, but when it got down to becoming a 1 to 3 round shot and stop machine, I got frustrated and packed it up.

I called Bushmaster on it, speaking to Jim Eden in Tech Support. He thought it might be an extractor spring issue and offered to send a replacement spring and insert (blue) to try, or for me to call BM for a RMA number to send the upper back to them.

Well, I got the spring and insert in a couple days, but haven't had the chance to tear it down and put the new spring in yet. I'll be taking it over to a local smith this week to have him take a look at it too before I decide whether or not to send it back to BM.

Just thought it was interesting that someone else was experiencing the same exact issue with their carbine.

FUZ10N, hang in there Bro, you aren't going crazy alone.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 6:57:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 10:01:53 AM EDT by _DR]
Component QC is Critical!
Too many makers out there have sloppy QC, if there is any at all.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:41:56 AM EDT
Had the same issue with my old AK braked 14.5 Bushy carbine. Back in 2003, I picked up a few Oly-Arms x-rings and after throwing one around the spring the problem disappeared.

Always frustrating when you have to tweak a new rifle. Luckily it was an easy/cheap fix
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:37:27 AM EDT
Hey guys, been lurking on the forum for a while before I made my purchase, and needed to chime in here.....

By the way....I am the ultra AR NOOB, so please be gentle.

Heh....this must not be a rare occurance. I picked up a new Bushmaster M4 Patrolman's Carbine last month. I fired approx. 150-200 rounds through it before I had the EXACT SAME issues as described above. The rifle wouldn't fully extract the spent casing and it would then try to "double feed" the spent case as it picked up a new one. This happened every 6-8th shot or so. As described above, clearing was as easy as dropping the mag resulting in the two shells falling free once I pulled the charging handle.

Confused and rather dissapointed, I packed her up and called Bushmaster. They offered a loose gas key as a possible solution, so I checked that...it was rock solid and staked rock hard. I tried the "blow test" with the bolt in an rearward.....no leaks. I also checked my gas ring spacing and all was OK.

I then decided to take off the ejector for the 1st time. Nothing too exciting there....cleaned some gunk off the shell grabbing end with a dental pick to clean out the corners. I noticed some buildup of carbon on the rear of the bolt behind the gas rings.....I decided to investigate things further and shined a light into the bolt carrier.....with a dental pickI probed into the back "shelf" and found to my disgust something I had missed in my "thorough" cleanings. I didn't realize this stuff was building up! The carbon was pretty thickand I picked away at it and kept dousing it with CLP. After a time, things were all clean.

I put it all back together and need to shoot it yet. I did notice that my bolt rotates super smooth now when engaging the teeth when it locks and unlocks. Can that carbon build-up in the bolt carrier be causing my FTEX??

The other thing I am now thinking having read these other posts is.....could this be an ammo related problem??? I too experienced the problems when I started shooting the Black Hills 55 gr. blue box remanufactures. The first 150 or so rounds were Remington UMC. This prob. started creeping up when I shot the Black Hills. The other guys here were shooting the same things from what I read. In comparing the the two shells sidexside it looks to me as if the BH remanuf. are a little "rounded" and not as crisp an edge on the shellcasing lip where the extractor grabs. Just a thought.

I will try to get out tonight and shoot a few of both rounds and see how things go. I'm hoping my cleaning would have done the trick. I guess I now know why they make those bolt carrier carbon scrapers. Any input would be appreciated!
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 10:15:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By slowryde45:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By mb3:
Check your extractor spring. I had the same issue with a new bolt, after only 40 rounds. I pulled the bolt apart and found my extractor spring compressed to 2/3 its origial size. It had a blue insert which I re-used, and have had no problems sence.
MB



Yep...it's becoming quite apparent that deficent oem extractor springs/issues AREN'T exactly a "Rare Occurance".



+1 for the extractor spring issues.

The Mrs put a Bushy A2 in my Xmas stocking this past year. And No...she's not for sale either nor will I be giving up on her anytime soon. (the Mrs I mean...the Bushy...well....)

But the first time I got to take the Bushy out, I tore it down the night before and lubed it all up with CLP making sure to hit all the right spots.

The next day it was as if FUZ10N was capturing my experiences play by play. Using Black Hills blue box 55gr FMJ, I think I went through the first 10 rounds with no problems. Then just as he described it, I had a spent shell in the chamber and the next round was trying to feed. Dropping the mag, both casings fell right out. So I checked the mag, reinserted and started firing again. Again, about 5 rounds then the FTE. Thinking it might be a mag issue, I switched mags (all brand new Bushy 30rd). After 6 rounds, the same thing. So I thought maybe it was a break-in thing, but when it got down to becoming a 1 to 3 round shot and stop machine, I got frustrated and packed it up.

I called Bushmaster on it, speaking to Jim Eden in Tech Support. He thought it might be an extractor spring issue and offered to send a replacement spring and insert (blue) to try, or for me to call BM for a RMA number to send the upper back to them.

Well, I got the spring and insert in a couple days, but haven't had the chance to tear it down and put the new spring in yet. I'll be taking it over to a local smith this week to have him take a look at it too before I decide whether or not to send it back to BM.

Just thought it was interesting that someone else was experiencing the same exact issue with their carbine.

FUZ10N, hang in there Bro, you aren't going crazy alone.



Yep....it does appear that I'm "Not Alone" and sumpt'in tells me that bushy needs to "RE-REVIEW" their batch/selection/choice of extractor springs...especially in the Patrolmans Carbines as it seems to be prolificating in that particular model....and my guess is they're already well aware of this via customer service and warranty returns....and if I were ceo of bm I'd be sending out upgraded extractor springs to all recent purchasers...as I'd be damned that I risk my entire companys reputation and the reliability of my products over deficient .99 cents ea. extractor springs.

Another thing is this....I'm a former US Marine who qualified Rifle Expert and "High Shooter Of My Platoon"....now I'm a 47 year old precision tool&die Machinist/fabricator who has been heavily involved in IPSC tactical competitions, white-tail hunting and general shooting sports for the entirety of my adult life...and while I do not claim to be an AR Guru?....I have worked on many of my own arms including numerous auto's..several AK's, Serveral AR's and even building my own IPSC 1911 Based /Para P-14 race pistol and if there's one thing I learned about auto anythings?....it's this....in the end?...after all the basic geometrical specs are met and in tolerance?...

"The selection of power and quailty of the springs chosen and installed will either make or break that particular auto when it comes to matters of funtion and reliability."

at least that's been my experience with auto action anythings...and a while back I used to be sought after by fellow ipsc folks who wanted me to tune and trick out their 1911's, Beretta 9mms and Glocks...hell...I used to make mag wells and guide rods for glocks....especially after I explained to a few folks that the flat wound springs that glock used would chaff the polymer guide rod...and how going to one of my lathe turned S.S. guid rods and using a wolff "Round" wound spring slicked up their action and could decrease their group sizes by as much as 50%...and that was MANY years ago...or how important it was to install a lower power recoil spring in their 1911's when rolling your own slightly downloaded ammo for ipsc competition...as once again...with the purchase of my new bushmaster years later...my memories of just what sort of gremlins springs can be are resparked....springs....that can and often times do grossly affect the operation of any auto.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 11:18:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
Component QC is Critical!
Too many makers out there have sloppy QC, if there is any at all.



I'm sorry _DR but I just hafta take issue with that extremely broad, if not ignorant statement..and while there is no debating that QC is always critical?...it's absolutely foolhardy to suggest that ANY prime manufacturers of potentially "HIGH LIABILITY RISK FIREARMS" would support "sloppy QC" and it's INCREDIBLY IRRESPONSIBLE to suggest that any such manufacturers might not have "any at all"....as to post a remark like that is just BEYOND ABSURD.....not to mention very much unappreciated.

I spent almost all of my adult life working in manufacturing industries. At first as a Precision Sheet Metal Fabricator (for about a decade) and then more than a decade working my way up to become a precision tool & die machinst....and the bulk of that time was spent working for Pratt & Whitneys Large Military Jet Engine R&D Facility creating and developing such products as the first S.T.O.L. Nozzle for the F15 Strike Eagle...and more recently The J.S.F.119 (joint strike fighter engine) and the vectoring nozle systems for the F-22 Raptor...with vast "Production Shop" manufacturing experience before, inbetween and after...I know something about QC inspection methods....and when it comes to high count small details such as pins, screws, springs and various other commonplace hardware?..most manufacturers don't pi$$ away their valuable manufacturing time on such petty hardware as they need to stay focued on the primary components...so VENDORS & SUPPLIERS supply the springs (from spring houses) and the fasteners and pins from "Screw Machine Houses" and incoming inspections of such "Vendor Supplied Materials" are almost always..."Sample Lot Inspections"...as they do not inspect 100% of ever box of pins, screws and springs recieved...consequently?....it is these very items that more often than not involve a "Heat Treat Cycle" in their processing....and THE ONLY PEOPLE I'VE EVER KNOW OF to preform a 100% inspection of ALL such incoming vendor supplied hardware items is N.A.S.A. (as I've worked on many of their projects as well)....and I don't even wanna think about how much a NASA Produced AR might cost!!! LOL!!!

But the bottom line is this...in most manufacturing facilities (if not all except nasa)...QC is by no means a GARENTEE that all is and will be well forever....it's just any given companys best shot at keeping an eye on things...to make certain that "Pre-Established Quality Standards" are being upheld...and even nasa had their "Columbia"...."Proof" that despite mans best effort...$hit happens.

Now...if you wanna be commited and dedicated to being a Colt Zealot?...that's entirely up to you and fine by me...but please don't attempt to infer that any of the other premier AR manufactures out there have "NO QC AT ALL"....it's ludicrist and absurd, if not downright ignorant and inflammatory to even suggest such...and now let me give you a prime example of what a purely rational statement reads like....

"COLTS BREAK TOO!!!"

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 11:35:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 11:44:55 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Component QC is Critical!
Too many makers out there have sloppy QC, if there is any at all.



I'm sorry _DR but I just hafta take issue with that extremely broad, if not ignorant statement..and while there is no debating that QC is always critical?...it's absolutely foolhardy to suggest that ANY prime manufacturers of potentially "HIGH LIABILITY RISK FIREARMS" would support "sloppy QC" and it's INCREDIBLY IRRESPONSIBLE to suggest that any such manufacturers might not have "any at all"....as to post a remark like that is just BEYOND ABSURD.....not to mention very much unappreciated.

I spent almost all of my adult life working in manufacturing industries. At first as a Precision Sheet Metal Fabricator (for about a decade) and then more than a decade working my way up to become a precision tool & die machinst....and the bulk of that time was spent working for Pratt & Whitneys Large Military Jet Engine R&D Facility creating and developing such products as the first S.T.O.L. Nozzle for the F15 Strike Eagle...and more recently The J.S.F.119 (joint strike fighter engine) and the vectoring nozle systems for the F-22 Raptor...with vast "Production Shop" manufacturing experience before, inbetween and after...I know something about QC inspection methods....and when it comes to high count small details such as pins, screws, springs and various other commonplace hardware?..most manufacturers don't pi$$ away their valuable manufacturing time on such petty hardware as they need to stay focued on the primary components...so VENDORS & SUPPLIERS supply the springs (from spring houses) and the fasteners and pins from "Screw Machine Houses" and incoming inspections of such "Vendor Supplied Materials" are almost always..."Sample Lot Inspections"...as they do not inspect 100% of ever box of pins, screws and springs recieved...consequently?....it is these very items that more often than not involve a "Heat Treat Cycle" in their processing....and THE ONLY PEOPLE I'VE EVER KNOW OF to preform a 100% inspection of ALL such incoming vendor supplied hardware items is N.A.S.A. (as I've worked on many of their projects as well)....and I don't even wanna think about how much a NASA Produced AR might cost!!! LOL!!!

But the bottom line is this...in most manufacturing facilities (if not all except nasa)...QC is by no means a GARENTEE that all is and will be well forever....it's just any given companys best shot at keeping an eye on things...to make certain that "Pre-Established Quality Standards" are being upheld...and even nasa had their "Columbia"...."Proof" that despite mans best effort...$hit happens.

Now...if you wanna be commited and dedicated to being a Colt Zealot?...that's entirely up to you and fine by me...but please don't attempt to infer that any of the other premier AR manufactures out there have "NO QC AT ALL"....it's ludicrist and absurd, if not downright ignorant and inflammatory to even suggest such...and now let me give you a prime example of what a purely rational statement reads like....

"COLTS BREAK TOO!!!"

L8R, Bill.



Firstly, I didn't ever say "premier" makers do no QA testing. Vulcan Arms, as far as I can tell does no QA at all other than saying "yep it looks good".
Bushmaster on the other hand does better than most but still does does spotty QC as evidenced from the number of canted front sights that ship with new rifles - this is a common occurence with BM.
BM also only "spot checks" their barrels and Bolts with proof load and MPI testing, by their own admission. So you can't argue that BM QA is as good as Colt, it's simply not true as a matter of fact.
Anything can break, but good QC ensures that it at least works when it is new.


For the price you pay the BM is still a good rifle. Not arguing that. In general, I have been pleased with my BM.
But if you are argung that BM QC is on a par with Colt QC, you don't have a leg to stand on, it's just not so. I'm not a Colt zealot, I just believe the product is only as good as the quality control measures taken before it ships. I know many disagree vehemently with this and that's OK. I have a BM as well, and after the issues I have had with it, my experience says otherwise. And in the end all form our own opinions based on our experiences.

Anyway, this discussion is not useful in resolving your current issue I hope you get your issue resolved and keep us posted, was not trying to hijack the thread.


Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:25:58 PM EDT
Okay...went out tonight and first put 25 rounds of the BH reman. downrange....zero problems.

Then ran 20 of the Rem. UMC.....zero problems.

All slow fire from a bench.

Not exactly an extensive test, but I didn't want to burn up all the ammo for this weekend......that will be a MUCH better test.Perhaps my thorough cleaning worked????
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:47:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hyperformer:
Okay...went out tonight and first put 25 rounds of the BH reman. downrange....zero problems.

Then ran 20 of the Rem. UMC.....zero problems.

All slow fire from a bench.

Not exactly an extensive test, but I didn't want to burn up all the ammo for this weekend......that will be a MUCH better test.

Perhaps my thorough cleaning worked????



That's GREAT NEWS Hyper!...Betcher happy...I might as well take a 2nd look down my bolt carrier gas ring area as well...as my bolt felt kinda sticky as well when working it for and aft by hand...but...those gas rings need to breakin an wear into that area as well...and to boot?...I'm waiting for my parts to come in...and then I'm rebuilding the stock bolt with a Mcfarland Single Piece Gas Ring....Cjans HD Colt M4 Extractor Spring w/ Black Insert and...Les Baer Custom (machined from billet) Extractor....and I also have a Les Baer Custom "Complete Bolt Assy"...I plan on test/function firing both bolts (just to make sure all is well with both) and then calling one of'em "My Back-Up Bolt"...to be stowed in the field repair parts bag...along with several spare XP extractor springs...and THAT oughta do it!!!

Thanks for the report, Happy blazing away this weekend and...L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:49:40 AM EDT
Well folks...thanks to Hyperformers findings of carbon deposits on the steeped shelf of his bolt/carrier and his subsequent thorough cleaning of such and claimed success?...I decided to take a cloer look at my carriers cleanliness..now with due respect to Hyperformer findings please note that his FTEX problem was quite as bad as mine and he managed to blow through 150-200rds where I only managed 20rds before rapping it up...so...while I did find just a tad of carbon build-up in my carrier?...it was minimal and nothing that I felt should hang things up...however...I just haven't been happy with the "Stickyness" of my bolt as I slid it for and aft in the carrier...as it had this "skitter and skip" feel to it rather than a constant smooth sliding motion...so just fer shiz n' giggles?...I push a .45cal Bronze Brush down through the carrier to exit onto a white piece of paper (just in case there were carbon deposites I wasn't seeing) and much to my dismay here's what came out...



very little carbon but....a considerable amount of what appeared to be small metallic burrs...INSIDE MY FREAKING CARRIER!!!

Needless to say?...It was time for me to fire up my compressor and get a little jiggy wid it!!! LOL!!!



Now...before I proceed here I must let ya'll know that I have 20+ years in the machining trades and I knew right up front that the internal gas seal diameter IS a critical dimension and one you definantly want to take every precaution not to Over-Size as you'll ruin the entire carrier,,,and for that reason I selected my LEAST aggressive polishing compound and then stoned a soft cotton bob to "just fit" in the gas seal diameter/area then compounded it up and went at it very gradually...using my bolt "TO FEEL" my progress every few passes...until it was still tight and sealing yet...glassy smooth in movement..and the pic doesn't do it justice but trust me...it polished up and blinged out the gas sealing carrier bore diameters very nicely.



and now my bolt is still tight fitting but...it's movement is 1000% far smoother than what it was...and no "Sticky/Skittery Feeling" at all...more like it's sliding on oiled glass...as it should be...with that sweet "Clip-Clop" sound as I move it back and forth lock/unlock...and I'm much happier with that...well worth the 20 minutes it took to do.

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:41:44 PM EDT
Looks good! Now get out and shoot that thing! I know you're waiting for new components, but curious to see if this will help.

Was there any gunk at the far back of the carrier in the corners? There is the 1st very small step, then at the far rear nothing would come off until I took my sharp dental pic and literally chipped away at it.

It seems as though your prob. is more mechanical though, having shown up from the start. (as you have already diagnosed.)


I just hope all holds up well to my test this weekend.h.gif
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 3:23:57 PM EDT
I can't say as I like the idea of finding metal shavings in the BCG... Please keep us posted on your refiring. I'm going to be disgusted if its rough internals.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 4:07:26 PM EDT
What do you suspect was the source of the shavings? Your original gas rings?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:42:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
What do you suspect was the source of the shavings? Your original gas rings?



No...not the original gas rings...more like metallic burrs that may have been hidden in the non-critical areas such as the gas port holes and such...or/and...the rear bolt stem clearance bore aft of the gas seal bore diameter...as in...somebody at the deburr bench got lazy or wasn't paying attention that day...on that particular carrier.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:02:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 7:05:49 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
I can't say as I like the idea of finding metal shavings in the BCG... Please keep us posted on your refiring. I'm going to be disgusted if its rough internals.



Will do Stickman but as a 20+ year tool & die machinist I can tell ya right now...feel free to be disgusted...I was....as whoever machined the gas seal bore on this carrier was either "pushing a dull tool" or just flat "pushing" (read: too fast of a feed and speed)....probably some poor job scared machinist with a high production supervisor breathing fire up his @$$....BTDT, Know the scene and can even "almost" understand/relate....but no biggy as 5-10 minutes of polishing squared it right up and made a night & day difference...also...I did before/after "blow test" and the "before polishing" exhibited an ever so slight leak but...after polishing?...it was like blowing into a hermetically sealed drum...zero leakage.

Now...all that said?.....I probably could've sat down the range and cleared FTEX's and cleaned and kept her hosed down with clp and "Repeat As Necessary" all day long and she probably would've broke/wore herself in and eventually cleared up after a few hundred rounds... and I'm tempted to re-test it just with the polishing I put on it but.....after that first confidence shattering range session I know as soon as my upgraded parts arrive I'll be popping them in...but I am tempted to VERIFY/PROOF RANGE TEST just as she is just to see if in fact it was..."BC Rough Internals" that was hanging her up...sorta might explain the weak (barely dribbling out the ejection port) ejection on the first few rounds that DID manage to Extract and Eject as well.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:06:15 PM EDT
Its refreshing to talk to someone who is familiar with the weapon system, as opposed to people who have never handled it before.

How long before you test fire it?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:21:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Its refreshing to talk to someone who is familiar with the weapon system, as opposed to people who have never handled it before.

How long before you test fire it?



Thank you for the compliment and it's my pleasure...he11...I dunno...I was gonna wait till fri/sat after my parts came in but I am 1/2 tempted to run up to the range tomorrow morning with the carbine just as she is.... "just to see"...cause it sure would define why it is that Bushmaster recommends a "200-500rd run in period"....as imho?...there's no reason these things shouldn't be dead nuts reliable right out of the box....but alls it takes is some IROC in middle management to start making a few cost savings suggestions (and polish/deburr is always a labor intensive manhour spike in production) and suddenly?....reliability goes in the toilet...BTDT2!!! LOL!!!

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:55:55 AM EDT
Well, I was able to get out and shoot this weekend with some friends, and ran approx. 180 rounds of 55 grain BlackHills remanuf., and Rem. UMC.

All ran well for about 50 rounds, then I had the "FTEX double feed" on what I think was the Black Hills stuff. I cleared the jam, and continued on firing without any probs that day. Put 80 rounds downrange that day.

That evening I cleaned and oiled everything. Shot 100 rounds the next day w/o a prob. Perhaps just a break in issue....who knows. Will try to keep you posted.

Only 1 FTEX DF in 180 rounds.....still 1 too many IMO.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:04:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hyperformer:
Well, I was able to get out and shoot this weekend with some friends, and ran approx. 180 rounds of 55 grain BlackHills remanuf., and Rem. UMC.

All ran well for about 50 rounds, then I had the "FTEX double feed" on what I think was the Black Hills stuff. I cleared the jam, and continued on firing without any probs that day. Put 80 rounds downrange that day.

That evening I cleaned and oiled everything. Shot 100 rounds the next day w/o a prob. Perhaps just a break in issue....who knows. Will try to keep you posted.

Only 1 FTEX DF in 180 rounds.....still 1 too many IMO.



Interesting...thanks for the report....I'll be testing mine sometime this week with just the BC polish job...as I believe that the BC internals are so roughly machined it makes the bolt gas rings just too damn sticky and reluctant...especially with the softer loaded 55gr FMJ BH BB fodder...and imho?...

short gas system + low chamber pressure ammo + slighty sticky bolt movement ='s FTEX

We shall see and thanks again, Bill.
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