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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 3:07:35 PM EDT
Looks like GDOTS got the contract....

"The Army Field Support Command (AFSC) has awarded a five year contract to General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GDOTS) located in St. Petersburg, Florida as the second source prime contractor for small caliber ammunition. The contract to GDOTS is for the delivery of 300M cartridges in various types and configurations conforming to U.S. Technical Data Packages and Military Specifications. Through this contract, the Army has the ability to procure quantities up to 500 million cartridges annually."
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:01:29 PM EDT
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:04:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 5:27:09 PM EDT by ColtRifle]

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



Ever hear of suppressive fire? Tell us about your impressive combat experience. On the other hand......don't.

Go back to GD
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:31:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



Ever hear of suppressive fire? Tell us about your impressive combat experience. On the other hand......don't.

Go back to GD




Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:39:18 PM EDT
Any one know if they already have the capacity to produce this ammo or are they going to have to build it from the ground up.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:42:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 5:42:28 PM EDT by sysop]

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



Yeah, we shoulda never adopted those new fangled repeating rifles and stuff. What a waste of ammo.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:04:34 PM EDT
I wonder if General Dynamics will be producing rounds that span the full spectrum (including 5.56mm) or will they mainly be focusing on 20mm, .50 cal, etc?

And the main question...will they sell off their imperfections to the public like Federal does?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:32:16 PM EDT

And the main question...will they sell off their imperfections to the public like Federal does?


I hope so. Federal needs competition in the market. It may not be much, but a little bit of competition is better than nothing.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:36:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HP40:
Any one know if they already have the capacity to produce this ammo or are they going to have to build it from the ground up.


They are teamed with other companies already making milspec ammo - I believe they are Winchester, IMI and SNC.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:28:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



And how do you train 150,000 new recruits who have never held a gun before in their lives how to shoot accurately without shooting lots of ammo in training?

I guess you'd shoot expert on the Army Qual Course and CQB Course, right?

-Troy



This is the biggest argument for the CMP I have heard in a LOOOOOONG time.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:31:45 AM EDT
I'm looking forward to the fine day when all this manufacturing capacity is producing an excess.

Want to hazard a guess, Troy? One year, ten years?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:50:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:46:15 AM EDT
About 2 years after we've been able to get the majority of our troops out of Iraq, assuming we don't go someplace else.

-Troy

Or they may be in Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, or Central/South America. And BTW....the Congressional Delegation voted to keep the Red River Army Depot open this morning. So it is off the BRAC list.

be safe / TexasAg
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:09:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By P-245:
"The Army Field Support Command (AFSC) has awarded a five year contract to General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GDOTS) located in St. Petersburg, Florida as the second source prime contractor for small caliber ammunition. The contract to GDOTS is for the delivery of 300M cartridges in various types and configurations conforming to U.S. Technical Data Packages and Military Specifications. Through this contract, the Army has the ability to procure quantities up to 500 million cartridges annually."



What do they mean by "second source?" Who is the "first source?" ATK?

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:15:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



And how do you train 150,000 new recruits who have never held a gun before in their lives how to shoot accurately without shooting lots of ammo in training?

I guess you'd shoot expert on the Army Qual Course and CQB Course, right?

-Troy



Probably. In Nam, it took 10,000 rounds to kill one enemy per the military. As I said, learn to shoot better.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:34:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:47:27 AM EDT
I read it a coupleof years ago in a book about Nam. That's one reason the 3 rd burst started being used. Blast away on f/a is not the most efficient way to kill several enemy.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:56:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:13:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:17:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:

And the main question...will they sell off their imperfections to the public like Federal does?


I hope so. Federal needs competition in the market. It may not be much, but a little bit of competition is better than nothing.



And you base this on what?

(Please keep in mind that Federal makes NO 223 ammo for the Military)
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:54:40 PM EDT
I suppose many would argue the Arc Light B-52 bombing missions were a waste of 500 and 750 lb bombs also, due to the bombs dropped vs the kill ratio.

However, ask any Marine who served at Khe Sahn how effective those strikes were and I'll bet they were thankful to have them in the arsenal. And ask any NVA soldier who was in the path of these strikes what they thought. The B-52 was immensly feared and a very effectove weapon.

It helped break the seige at Khe Sahn and also helped beat back the all-out NVA offensive against South Vietnam in the 1972 Easter Offensive. It broke the back of the enemy many times during the war.

Was it overkill? Maybe in some cases. But who cares? It got the job done. Sometimes overkill is a good thing. By the same token, I am for using all the ammo that's needed for a given situation. If that's 10,000 rounds, so be it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:00:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Those over-inflated Vietnam round-count numbers could rounds of ALL types, including things like the miniguns on the Puff The Magic Dragon gunships, air-to-air guns, and millions of rounds of suppressive machinegun fire.

Some of you forget that much of Vietnam meant shots coming from SOMEWHERE within extremely thick jungle vegitation, where you couldn't even tell for sure what general area the rounds were coming from, much less SEE the person shooting at you. The solution to that situation was to pour fire into the jungle, hoping to either suppress the enemy (keep their heads down until you can maneuver around them) or to flush them out. You can't begin to compare that to Afghanistan or Iraq, when in much of the country there is very little to hide in or behind.

Some of you aren't wise enough to realize that most tactics were adopted for VERY GOOD REASONS that were developed to meet the conditions our soldiers, sailors, & Marines were operating in.

-Troy




The article was referring to the M16, but whatever
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:30:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:32:32 PM EDT by ColtRifle]

Originally Posted By alaman:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By alaman:
They need to learn to shoot accurately. Big waste of ammo



And how do you train 150,000 new recruits who have never held a gun before in their lives how to shoot accurately without shooting lots of ammo in training?

I guess you'd shoot expert on the Army Qual Course and CQB Course, right?

-Troy



Probably. In Nam, it took 10,000 rounds to kill one enemy per the military. As I said, learn to shoot better.



We have this concept called suppresive fire. It's pretty neat. In simple terms that means to fire lots of ammo at the bad guys to keep their heads down till we can either manuever up on them or find something bigger to throw at them. Suppressive fire keeps our troops alive. As long as the troops over there need the ammo, they should get as much as they want and they should shoot as much of it as they want at the bad guys to suppress or kill them.


I take it you were never in the military because if you were in combat you would realize how confusing it is. You rarely even seen a real person....you just shoot at the muzzle flashes. That takes lots of ammo.

Like I said, lets hear your experience.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:38:16 PM EDT
Is there a link that states General Dynamics won this contract????


I'm not finding anything
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:02:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 4:05:27 AM EDT by P-245]
From GD's web site (News):

U.S. Army Small-Caliber Ammo Award Establishes General Dynamics As Second Source for Critical Small Caliber Ammunition

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. – The U.S. Army Field Support Command, Rock Island, Illinois, has awarded General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), a five-year contract to supply small-caliber ammunition to the U.S. armed forces. The initial award under the contract is for $171 million for approximately 300 million rounds. The contract has a total potential value of approximately $1.2 billion if all options are exercised.

This contract establishes General Dynamics as a second-source prime contractor for the production of various types of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50 caliber ammunition. The company is already a leading supplier of medium- and large-caliber ammunition and bomb bodies to U.S. forces.

This award will expand the U.S. Defense Dept.’s small-caliber production base without incurring additional expense for upgrades to the existing government-owned, contractor-operated infrastructure. Members of the General Dynamics team are already filling emergency small-caliber ammunition orders for the U.S. government. Through this program, General Dynamics will serve as a flexible second source to quickly respond to growing demands in small-caliber ammunition for up to 500 million rounds per year.

Michael S. Wilson, president of General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, said, “General Dynamics is pleased to be selected for this critical role of providing small caliber ammunition to the U. S. soldier. With our successful track record as a leading prime contractor for medium- and large-caliber ammunition, we look forward to delivering the highest-quality ammunition to U.S. warfighters in the most timely and cost-efficient manner.”

General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems will be the prime systems contractor and logistics manager for the program, with its St. Marks Powder subsidiary providing BALL POWDER propellant. A team of domestic and international partners will support General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, including Olin Corporation’s Winchester Division; SNC Technologies, Inc. of Canada; Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI); and General Dynamics Santa Bárbara Sistemas, Madrid, Spain.

General Dynamics, headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, employs approximately 70,800 people worldwide and had 2004 revenue of $19.2 billion. The company is a market leader in mission-critical information systems and technologies; land and expeditionary combat systems, armaments and munitions; shipbuilding and marine systems; and business aviation.

Or try this, a Gov't web site: www.afsc.army.mil/CommandNews/Documents/-News/(08-23)%20SecondSource.pdf
-----------------------------------------
The "first" (primary) source is Lake City.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:10:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:47:50 AM EDT
"$171 million for approximately 300 million rounds"

Is my math correct that this comes out to 5.7 cents per round?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:09:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By handyandy:
"$171 million for approximately 300 million rounds"

Is my math correct that this comes out to 5.7 cents per round?



More like 57 cents per round.

Glad I'm not paying that much. Oh wait, it's my tax dollars...
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:54:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 12:03:44 PM EDT by P-245]

Originally Posted By dbrowne1:

Originally Posted By handyandy:
"$171 million for approximately 300 million rounds"

Is my math correct that this comes out to 5.7 cents per round?



More like 57 cents per round.

Glad I'm not paying that much. Oh wait, it's my tax dollars...


Understand that this is to procure everything from 12 cent 5.56mm blanks all the way to 9 dollar .50 cal armor-piercing incendiary cartridges. It averages out to around 57 cents/round given the estimated dollar and quantity amounts.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:29:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Those over-inflated Vietnam round-count numbers could rounds of ALL types, including things like the miniguns on the Puff The Magic Dragon gunships, air-to-air guns, and millions of rounds of suppressive machinegun fire.

Some of you forget that much of Vietnam meant shots coming from SOMEWHERE within extremely thick jungle vegitation, where you couldn't even tell for sure what general area the rounds were coming from, much less SEE the person shooting at you. The solution to that situation was to pour fire into the jungle, hoping to either suppress the enemy (keep their heads down until you can maneuver around them) or to flush them out. You can't begin to compare that to Afghanistan or Iraq, when in much of the country there is very little to hide in or behind.

Some of you aren't wise enough to realize that most tactics were adopted for VERY GOOD REASONS that were developed to meet the conditions our soldiers, sailors, & Marines were operating in.

-Troy



You forgot the Airmanhis
Shawn
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 6:59:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:37:31 PM EDT
That is very true, no "lines" in this war, and I am very proud of all our brothers in arms. With all the personnel we have over there, our spec ops, TAC P, Combat Controllers and PJ's(and the pilots and gunners that drop them off) working with the soldiers, sailors and marines spec ops kicking serious ass!! We also have our SP's and whoever can shoot a rifle pulling convoy escort duty. I know you didn't forget us, I was just joking. And on the subject, I am glad there will be more ammo to go around, we need it. I hate qualifying with plastic ammo.

Shawn
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