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Posted: 8/19/2004 12:22:39 PM EST
Last month, I wrote Model 1 Sales to ask what type of steel they used for their barrels. They replied that they used 4150 steel barrels from ER Shaw.

Another ar15.com user reported that M1S told him that they use 4140 ER Shaw barrels.

I wrote M1S again yesterday to ask about their barrel steel:



E.R. Shaw and they are 4150 Are website has been fine all day

Thank you

>Who makes your barrels, and what type of steel are
>they?
>BTW, your website is currently down, but you probably
>know that already.



Can anyone confirm? Would anyone care to write and ask? Would ER Shaw confirm this for us?

I'd like to trust them, because they seem to offer a very high quality product at a superb price point. However, I'm afraid it's too good to be true.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:27:04 PM EST
i don't know.... i doubt there 4150
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:39:46 PM EST
Exactly why are you concerned about the barrel being 4140 or 4150? I'm aware that 4150 is mil-spec but for us 'normal' users, 4140 is just fine.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:43:00 PM EST
I'm aware 4140 is fine for us normals.. What concerns me is truth-in-advertising. If a company is willing to mislead me on one detail, what else isn't as advertised?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:46:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By macros73:
I'm aware 4140 is fine for us normals.. What concerns me is truth-in-advertising. If a company is willing to mislead me on one detail, what else isn't as advertised?



Thats a good point. Have you tried calling them and asking? Sometimes I find that works much better then going through email where you are probably getting some secretary person.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:52:14 PM EST
They suck ass. Just FYI - Model 1 and Sherluk are the same people, or nearly so. They're the assholes formerly known as Nesard, famous for the fat woman who would sit behind their table at the gun show and eat fried chicken all day, pausing only to take your money and hand over overpriced made in Taiwan chicken-grease coated parts that would only work about 2/3 of the time.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:14:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They suck ass. Just FYI - Model 1 and Sherluk are the same people, or nearly so. They're the assholes formerly known as Nesard, famous for the fat woman who would sit behind their table at the gun show and eat fried chicken all day, pausing only to take your money and hand over overpriced made in Taiwan chicken-grease coated parts that would only work about 2/3 of the time.



lol
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:24:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By macros73:
I'm aware 4140 is fine for us normals.. What concerns me is truth-in-advertising. If a company is willing to mislead me on one detail, what else isn't as advertised?



If you worry so much about this to post this on AR15.com instead of calling them and asking them, you must have WAY too much time on your hands or are just WAY too anal retentive. If you want to get their stuff, get it. If you want to know fore sure you are getting 4150 steel, then go Colt or LMT.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:42:25 PM EST
Bushmaster barrels are 4150 as well.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:21:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 2:22:11 PM EST by _DR]
Well I just researched it and......

Ummm....my opinion of Model1sales just went down a notch. Check out this link to E.R. Shaw's Website - they specifically state their barrels are 4140 steel, NOT 4150. That means Model1sales is lying, unless there is something special going on here.

about E.R.Shaw barrels from the E.R. Shaw website

Although I still think model1sales kits are a good value for the money, I would still want 4150 if I was told I was getting 4150! Their integrity level just took a hit IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:34:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 3:00:15 PM EST by macros73]
Thanks to everyone who has provided input. I appreciate it, and I've emailed M1S again. I'll let you know what they say. Looks like I'll probably go LMT (via Bravo) or Bushmaster direct.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:36:34 PM EST
Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I will look into them a little further before ordering anything from them. If you can't trust the merchant, you shouldn't buy.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:45:39 PM EST
They're lying hucksters...once again, they prove my point for me.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:52:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 2:55:31 PM EST by GLOCKshooter]
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:20:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They're lying hucksters...once again, they prove my point for me.



I take it You had bought or had trouble from them before?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:24:03 PM EST
Maybe they made a frikkin typo?

4140 4150 4114 yada yada yada
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:29:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 3:31:11 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Maybe they made a frikkin typo?

4140 4150 4114 yada yada yada



There is a difference in the grades of steel. 4140 will wear faster, develop pitting easier, etc.

That's why GG&G 6061 aluminum picatinny rail products & parts cost more than similar Airsoft parts, for instance. I never pooh pooh metalurgical grades because I have seen too many metal components that were made of an inferior grade of metal fail.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:30:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By macros73:
Thanks to everyone who has provided input. I appreciate it, and I've emailed M1S again. I'll let you know what they say. Looks like I'll probably go LMT (via Bravo) or Bushmaster direct.



I think CMMG's MOD4 barrels are chromed 4150. At least that's what they say on their website.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:36:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Maybe they made a frikkin typo?

4140 4150 4114 yada yada yada



There is a difference in the grades of steel. 4140 will wear faster, develop pitting easier, etc.

That's why GG&G 6061 aluminum picatinny rail products & parts cost more than similar Airsoft parts, for instance. I never pooh pooh metalurgical grades because I have seen too many metal components that were made of an inferior grade of metal fail.



Did I " pooh pooh" why the poster was concerned with 4140 vs 4150 or did I merely point out that an honest typographical error has been made?



Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:02:22 PM EST
Buy a Bushmaster barrel and you won't have to worry about questionable quality or materials.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:08:26 PM EST

I merely point out that an honest typographical error has been made?


They made the mistake twice to me. We'll see what they say; I asked specifically about how ER Shaw only seems to make 4140 and 416R steel barrels, not 4150.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:41:21 PM EST
Armalite uses 4140 steel.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:59:26 PM EST
I just got on thier site and it doesn't say anywhere on it what thier barrels are 4140 or 4150 or at least that I found . So if the e-mail was not a typo just maybe with 19 different barrels offered by Model 1 the answer you were given applies to at least one of them , and the person that responded to you didn't look any farther than the one that said 4150 .
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:04:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 5:47:12 PM EST by JHaines]
My wife placed a birthday order for me from Model 1 sales, all parts and no barrels, but the items I did received are great, and the shipping was fast.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:26:59 PM EST
Bushmaster or Colt.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:18:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 6:22:37 PM EST by kuhlewulf]
I personally have had nothing but good experiences with Model 1. The text below is from an Olympic arms barrel ID article. It makes an interesting point about 4140 steel and the question of chrome lining.


BARREL MATERIAL

CHROMEMOLY BARRELS
The next marking, or lack of it will determine the type of barrel material; in other words, what the barrel is made of. Since we know what to look for to determine the caliber, lets go under the assumption that our barrel is a .223 caliber (5.56), but this same system applies to all calibers. If the only barrel stamping is "5.56", then the barrel is made of 4140 chromemoly steel. Chromemoly is a type steel that incorporates chrome right into the barrel metal itself. This barrel material is corrosion resistant, but not as much so as a stainless material. Using the 4140 chromemoly material allows us to give the consumer a barrel with similar benefits of a chrome lined barrel, but maintain consistencies in the bore that allow for superior accuracy. Our studies have shown that without a doubt chrome lining of any barrel will deplete it's accuracy.




Maybe 4140 isn't so bad? Milspec is great, but remember that Milspec is also a balance of dependabilty, durability, and accuracy. I am not carrying an M-16A2 that was issued to me anymore. My M1S 20" A2 is a hell of a lot more accurate than the old M-16A2 I had in the Army, and thats good enough for me.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:33:48 PM EST
My impression from talking with Model1Sales on the phone is that they don't know what they're talking about. For example, they told me their .300 Fireball bbls are threaded 1/2x32, but they're 1/2x28. I wanted the x28 anyway, but it's one example (among many) of how they don't know what they're selling.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:11:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By kuhlewulf:
Maybe 4140 isn't so bad? Milspec is great, but remember that Milspec is also a balance of dependabilty, durability, and accuracy. I am not carrying an M-16A2 that was issued to me anymore. My M1S 20" A2 is a hell of a lot more accurate than the old M-16A2 I had in the Army, and thats good enough for me.



See that is the problem - too many of you rely on information like this from the manufactures.

News Flash! 4150 is also a "Chrome/Moly' steel with chrome in the alloy. Did you also realize Armalite uses 4140 yet still feels the need to chome line their barrels?

4140 isn't a bad steel at all - but 4150 IS better.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:48:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:
My impression from talking with Model1Sales on the phone is that they don't know what they're talking about. For example, they told me their .300 Fireball bbls are threaded 1/2x32, but they're 1/2x28. I wanted the x28 anyway, but it's one example (among many) of how they don't know what they're selling.



So which is it, 32 or 28? Will the Phantom FH fit on the .300FB barrel? I hope so because that was one option that I was going to order when I get my .300FB Kit from M1S.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:23:56 AM EST
Guys, be realistic. You are paying Mod1 somewhere around 20-25% less than you would for the equivalent items from Bushmaster. I personally think you are getting a better deal from Mod1 - IMHO the extra cost of the Bushmaster is mostly paying for the brand name and customer service (i.e. they smile politely when some anal retentive asks about the metallurgy of the barrel).

I'm quite sure we could argue all day about whether the difference in alloys is significant. Bottom line: if you want a Bushmaster, then pay the extra for a Bushmaster. If you want a functional weapon at a good price, go with Mod1.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:35:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
Guys, be realistic. You are paying Mod1 somewhere around 20-25% less than you would for the equivalent items from Bushmaster. I personally think you are getting a better deal from Mod1 - IMHO the extra cost of the Bushmaster is mostly paying for the brand name and customer service (i.e. they smile politely when some anal retentive asks about the metallurgy of the barrel).

I'm quite sure we could argue all day about whether the difference in alloys is significant. Bottom line: if you want a Bushmaster, then pay the extra for a Bushmaster. If you want a functional weapon at a good price, go with Mod1.



This is true - I know several inidviduals who have built perfectly functional and accurate ARs with M1S kits. Of course, you have to be indifferent to the "fat greasy-fried-chicken-eating lady" factor. lol.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:35:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By fizassist:
My impression from talking with Model1Sales on the phone is that they don't know what they're talking about. For example, they told me their .300 Fireball bbls are threaded 1/2x32, but they're 1/2x28. I wanted the x28 anyway, but it's one example (among many) of how they don't know what they're selling.



So which is it, 32 or 28? Will the Phantom FH fit on the .300FB barrel? I hope so because that was one option that I was going to order when I get my .300FB Kit from M1S.



Dude, I'm quite sure the threads are 1/2x28, but if you are really worried then call them to double-check. Do you really think its more likely that M1 would use barrels with a non-standard thread ? Or could it just be that they run a lean business with inexperienced (cheap) admin staff answering the phones ? To my way of thinking, if the kit does not meet your expectations, send it back for a refund... you'll be out all of $30.

Like I said above, if you want your vendor to provide a 1-800 number with an AR15 expert available 24/7 to answer these kinds of questions, then you'll have to fund this service by buying from one of the premium suppliers (Bushmaster, Armalite etc.). YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !!!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:40:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 7:08:52 AM EST by SSR-99]
Forest wrote:
"See that is the problem - too many of you rely on information like this from the manufactures."

I do agree that a lot of the AR information is gathered from the manufacturers themselves, and that we are mostly relying on them to be honest.

With that said, I do like the way that the Bushmaster Firearms company places many of their product specifics on their website. Of course just like any other company, they will use certain wording that helps promote their products. But....... they also list very specific information about their AR's that other AR manufacturers won't get into (atleast no in writing). This, IMO, is a good thing about the Bushmaster firm. When they place such info in black and white for all to see, then it leaves them open for people to call them on any obvious mistakes (or even what some may believe to be outright lies).
When the info is gathered by other than publicly written company statements (like rumors or word of mouth), then it leaves the info hard to refute. You won't be able to call the company out on their info by saying..... "see, you wrote this about your product, but this very reputable source says that you are incorrect". If you can quote a company printed statement, then you can also call them out on it directly if you feel it's wrong.
I mean, if your product has this or that, then you should be bold enough to put it up in writing (instead of putting it out in a form that soon makes it become only a rumor or something considered word of mouth).

This is why no matter what your opinion is on the Bushmaster firm, it is hard to refute that out of all the major AR manufacturers, the Bushmaster site is probably the best and most informational AR manufacturer website on the internet. And they surely put a vast amount of their information up in writing for all (including their competition) to see.

PS.
As for the Bushmaster barrels, they have for many years now been stating that they manufacture them in house (using 4150 steel raw barrel blanks). Not only do they perform their own milling and rifling operations, they also perform their own chamber and bore hard chrome lining. This information was not only shared by the Bushmaster Rep on this sites Industry board forum, but has also been listed in their catalogs and website.






Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:59:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By fizassist:
My impression from talking with Model1Sales on the phone is that they don't know what they're talking about. For example, they told me their .300 Fireball bbls are threaded 1/2x32, but they're 1/2x28. I wanted the x28 anyway, but it's one example (among many) of how they don't know what they're selling.



So which is it, 32 or 28? Will the Phantom FH fit on the .300FB barrel? I hope so because that was one option that I was going to order when I get my .300FB Kit from M1S.



Dude, I'm quite sure the threads are 1/2x28, but if you are really worried then call them to double-check. Do you really think its more likely that M1 would use barrels with a non-standard thread ? Or could it just be that they run a lean business with inexperienced (cheap) admin staff answering the phones ? To my way of thinking, if the kit does not meet your expectations, send it back for a refund... you'll be out all of $30.

Like I said above, if you want your vendor to provide a 1-800 number with an AR15 expert available 24/7 to answer these kinds of questions, then you'll have to fund this service by buying from one of the premium suppliers (Bushmaster, Armalite etc.). YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !!!




I've bought two kits from M1S, both in 5.56, I just wonder if the 300FB would have the same barrel threads so I can use the Phantom. Both kits that I bought were good quality and woked fine without any tinkering, that's why I'm going M1S for my "no ban" kit. Ya'll do know that the threads on the Colt 9mm barrels is different then the ones on the 5.56mm barrels, right? That's why I wondered about the 300FB, they may have different threads so you couldn't put a 5.56mm FH on the barrel and "plug" it up. It'd be hard to get a .308" bullet thru a .223" hole.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:05:39 AM EST
Tagged. I am very happy with the parts from M1S. I wanna see their reply.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:43:25 AM EST
I like Model 1 Kits - good fit - good finish- good service - good price. I buy em cause I like em.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:19:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By SSR-99:
Forest wrote:
"See that is the problem - too many of you rely on information like this from the manufactures."

I do agree that a lot of the AR information is gathered from the manufacturers themselves, and that we are mostly relying on them to be honest.

With that said, I do like the way that the Bushmaster Firearms company places many of their product specifics on their website. Of course just like any other company, they will use certain wording that helps promote their products. But....... they also list very specific information about their AR's that other AR manufacturers won't get into (atleast no in writing). This, IMO, is a good thing about the Bushmaster firm. When they place such info in black and white for all to see, then it leaves them open for people to call them on any obvious mistakes (or even what some may believe to be outright lies).
When the info is gathered by other than publicly written company statements (like rumors or word of mouth), then it leaves the info hard to refute. You won't be able to call the company out on their info by saying..... "see, you wrote this about your product, but this very reputable source says that you are incorrect". If you can quote a company printed statement, then you can also call them out on it directly if you feel it's wrong.
I mean, if your product has this or that, then you should be bold enough to put it up in writing (instead of putting it out in a form that soon makes it become only a rumor or something considered word of mouth).

This is why no matter what your opinion is on the Bushmaster firm, it is hard to refute that out of all the major AR manufacturers, the Bushmaster site is probably the best and most informational AR manufacturer website on the internet. And they surely put a vast amount of their information up in writing for all (including their competition) to see.

PS.
As for the Bushmaster barrels, they have for many years now been stating that they manufacture them in house (using 4150 steel raw barrel blanks). Not only do they perform their own milling and rifling operations, they also perform their own chamber and bore hard chrome lining. This information was not only shared by the Bushmaster Rep on this sites Industry board forum, but has also been listed in their catalogs and website.




Right on!

Too few of us, apparently, realize the difference between a "Manufacturer" and an "Assembler."

Bushmaster manufactures key components like barrels and therefore has in-house knowledge of materials and processes. They have the ability to "build in" quality.

ArmaLite, for example, assembles key components like barrels. They rely on the barrel manufacturer to do their job and deliver a quality product. All they can do is test for quality after manufacture and trust that the manufacturing process was under control. This gains them no in-house process knowledge or control.

When I have the option, I buy from a manufacturer like Bushmaster. They can be more open with the info because they control it. Their leading market share also indicates that they are dong the right thing.

"Maine, the way life should be" - sign on the Interstate when you enter Maine.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:25:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 8:26:35 AM EST by StealthyBlagga]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ya'll do know that the threads on the Colt 9mm barrels is different then the ones on the 5.56mm barrels, right?



Good point... thats why I suggested you call them or plan to return the items if not as you expected.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:25:51 AM EST
ME and AK do have something in common (besides moose).

It seems you have to go to extremes - to the very end sometimes to find perfection.

However, in the case of metallurgy I think we're all a bit short on knowledge to REALLY make that kind of comparison.

Those who're chemistry grads here excepted of course.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:38:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 12:39:14 PM EST by shamayim]

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ya'll do know that the threads on the Colt 9mm barrels is different then the ones on the 5.56mm barrels, right?



Good point... thats why I suggested you call them or plan to return the items if not as you expected.



FYI, when Colt started building 7.62x39 ARs, they went to the thread, and flash supressor designed for the 9mm---because the hole in the 5.56 suppressor is too small for a .30 cal bullet. I would imagine that the same would hold true for any other .30 round; wouldn't you?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:52:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 1:59:34 PM EST by chewbacca]
I am the other ARFCOM memeber who emailed them and they told me they 4140 steel. Their response cut and pasted verbatim is as follows:

Sir,
The barrel are 4140 and made by ER Shaw.
Thank you,
Model 1


So maybe the inconstitancy is employee ignorance rather than intentional misrepresentation.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:13:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Chinook3:
I like Model 1 Kits - good fit - good finish- good service - good price. I buy em cause I like em.



Same here.
556man
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:58:52 AM EST
Two business days and no reply; in the past, M1S had always replied within a day. I don't fault them for their lack of reply thus far, I'm simply noting it. I ordered an upper elsewhere, though, as I grew impatient.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:32:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I am the other ARFCOM memeber who emailed them and they told me they 4140 steel. Their response cut and pasted verbatim is as follows:

Sir,
The barrel are 4140 and made by ER Shaw.
Thank you,
Model 1


So maybe the inconstitancy is employee ignorance rather than intentional misrepresentation.



this is probably the case. It has happened to me with other vendors that were otherwise good before.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:19:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By shamayim:

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ya'll do know that the threads on the Colt 9mm barrels is different then the ones on the 5.56mm barrels, right?



Good point... thats why I suggested you call them or plan to return the items if not as you expected.



FYI, when Colt started building 7.62x39 ARs, they went to the thread, and flash supressor designed for the 9mm---because the hole in the 5.56 suppressor is too small for a .30 cal bullet. I would imagine that the same would hold true for any other .30 round; wouldn't you?



It doesn't with Model 1. The 300 fireball flash hider they sent me was 1/2x28 (though the bore was larger than the .223 one they sent me in the same order). Not a complaint, because it makes putting a can on the fireball barrel easier, just an observation that their uppers have...quirks. Another example would be the use of straight pins (not taper) on the FSB.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:39:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They suck ass. Just FYI - Model 1 and Sherluk are the same people, or nearly so. They're the assholes formerly known as Nesard, famous for the fat woman who would sit behind their table at the gun show and eat fried chicken all day, pausing only to take your money and hand over overpriced made in Taiwan chicken-grease coated parts that would only work about 2/3 of the time.



Damn, QuietShootr, I can't get that mental picture out of my head......
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:23:44 PM EST
"Lying" may have been too strong a word. They could have been mistaken twice. Suffice it to say, they have not replied to my e-mail seeking clarification. I don't know if I'll order from them in the future, but for my first build, I went with an LMT upper instead of M1S. 4140, 4150..whatever, I just want to know for sure what my money is buying me!
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