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Posted: 8/12/2004 5:39:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2004 5:49:17 PM EST by Carbine_Man]
HipFiredGun wrote in another topic that he heard that 6.8mm Rem. SPC been "killed by the military."

Please post known facts, not third-hand rumors, that substantiate or refute this statement. Posts by Grendelizor are discounted because we know what he's rooting for.

I have a 6.8mm SPC rifle still waiting for ammo. I despise the thought that I've built a rifle for an orphan cartridge.

Edited to add: Please post what the rationale could be for killing the 6.8mm SPC program. It sounds like the kind of idiotic thing that a Pentagon bureaucrat would do to enhance/protect his career, regardless of the merits.

C_M
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 5:57:14 PM EST
Of course, you're assuming that even though I'm rooting for the 6.5 Grendel, that I would lack integrity such that I would lie to gain a marketing advantage. I resent being classed with lawyers, used-car salesmen, and certain gun writers and employees of Barrett promoting the 6.8 SPC! hn
-----------------
6.5 Grendel: AR10 Soul in an AR15 Body
www.65grendel.com
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 6:00:32 PM EST
I too would like to know the specifics ..... if there are any.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 6:06:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Of course, you're assuming that even though I'm rooting for the 6.5 Grendel, that I would lack integrity such that I would lie to gain a marketing advantage. I resent being classed with lawyers, used-car salesmen, and certain gun writers and employees of Barrett promoting the 6.8 SPC!

And so's your mother!
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 6:08:01 PM EST
I've heard from two separate sources - one of which has a contact at Remington LE - that Remington is still planning to ship ammo to distributors late this month, or in Sept.

I don't think the military can "cancel" 6.8SPC. They can choose to not use it, but I don't think they can stop Remington and Barrett (and others) from selling ammunition and uppers.

-z
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 6:14:34 PM EST
The military can kill the program, which may very well kill most of the market for the caliber. Regardless of how many people here want it, if it isn't adopted by the military, it will never achieve the fame it could have.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 9:46:13 PM EST
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the 308 winchester and 223 remington both start out as "civilian" cartridges prior to their exceptance by the military for combat service? IIRC from a documentary that I once saw on the history channel, the 223 remington/5.56 NATO, in particular, had a pretty rough road to hoe before it was finally adopted as the stardard issue cartridge during the vietnam war. Today, the 223/5.56 NATO is the assault rifle cartridge standard by which all other assault rifles cartridges are judged by and measured against.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 9:51:35 PM EST
Right now the ammo factories are making this at their capacity, or so I have been told. If its not yet available on the civilian market, where else would it be going?
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 10:03:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Right now the ammo factories are making this at their capacity, or so I have been told. If its not yet available on the civilian market, where else would it be going?




I thought remington was the only company making 6.8 ammo right now. Is Lake City making 6.8 as well?
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 10:16:51 PM EST
Hornady, as I heard it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 10:18:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By ElevenO:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the 308 winchester and 223 remington both start out as "civilian" cartridges prior to their exceptance by the military for combat service? IIRC from a documentary that I once saw on the history channel, the 223 remington/5.56 NATO, in particular, had a pretty rough road to hoe before it was finally adopted as the stardard issue cartridge during the vietnam war. Today, the 223/5.56 NATO is the assault rifle cartridge standard by which all other assault rifles cartridges are judged by and measured against.



IIRC, Winchester developed .308 with the intention to use it as both a military and sporting round. .223 was developed specifically for the military, but sold on the civilian market immediately. At the time, the civilian caliber of choice was .222.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 10:29:35 PM EST
One thing that keeps a cartridge on the market is people shooting a lot of it. If you want the the 6.8 then make or buy one. Ammo will be available. Remington has spent some money tooling up for it so I really doubt that they will axe it without giving it a chance. As soon as it becomes available buy it and shoot the shit out of it. Few of the cartridges on the market have a military background.

Look at the 6.8MM SPC & the 6.5MM Grendel as something fresh and new. Try them & if you don't like them someone else will most likely take it off your hands.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:33:40 AM EST
It's dead, it's not dead. Does anybody here really know? Probably not. If you want a 6.8 you'll find a way to get ammo or make it. If you want to be on the leading edge then you accept the delays and problems with something new. There are many times when products are anounched that they are not available without some leadtime. For me the 6.8 is just a curiosity at this time and I'm willing to wait for awhile to see what happens. In the meantime I'll stick to 223 and 308.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:21:33 AM EST
All I can tell you is that we were informed that the JAG had killed it about two weks ago. We're speculating as much as everybody else as to the reasons and as soon as I get an answer I will post it.

From a logistical standpoint, we are having enough trouble getting 5.56 to the extent that we are having to buy it from Israel to keep up with demand in both 'stan and Iraq - that might well be the reason for this.
HFG
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:28:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:48:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By JTAC_Supply:
Well, look at it this way. If the military DOES stop using it, then that means Remington will be able to sell their product here, to civvies instead of having to keep sending it all to "someones Uncle" overseas. I don't think 6.8 is going anywhere, it's a viable cartridge for more than 1 reason whether the military uses it or not, as is the 6.5 just for different uses.

Jason



I agree that it will stick around one way or another. There are already a couple of companies starting to make bolt actions for this round. It would have been (and still may be) nice for the military to adopt it so that it would be better known and would grow in popularity faster (and thus increase demand thus supply), but I think it will be around.

Who knows, if it is just a logistical issue rather than an international law issue, individual units may still pick it up. But if it is a legal issue, I guess they will have to sell it as a hunting around.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:11:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
HipFiredGun wrote in another topic that he heard that 6.8mm Rem. SPC been "killed by the military."

Please post known facts, not third-hand rumors, that substantiate or refute this statement. Posts by Grendelizor are discounted because we know what he's rooting for.

I have a 6.8mm SPC rifle still waiting for ammo. I despise the thought that I've built a rifle for an orphan cartridge.

Edited to add: Please post what the rationale could be for killing the 6.8mm SPC program. It sounds like the kind of idiotic thing that a Pentagon bureaucrat would do to enhance/protect his career, regardless of the merits.

C_M



6.8 Remmington SPC has been/will be adopted by SAAMI as a commercial cartridge. So you will see it produced by non-govt sources.

It will NEVER be, and was not intended as, a mass-issue cartridge by the service, hence SPECIAL PURPOSE CARTRIDGE. There will probably be as many 6.8mm weapons issued as there are HK USPs issued, maybe less... Remember: 5.56mm and 9x19mm are the NATO standard, and as much as some people here would like to see 6.8 and .45ACP mass issued, it's gonna happen right around when hell freezes over....

I wouldn't count on it to be as popular as .223, but if you must have it, there WILL be ammo...
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:30:59 AM EST
I have nothing against the 6.8 or 6.5 but why do you prefer these cartridges over an AR cambered for 7.62?
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:34:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
All I can tell you is that we were informed that the JAG had killed it about two weks ago. We're speculating as much as everybody else as to the reasons and as soon as I get an answer I will post it.



JAG ? Sounds like a question of Geneva Accords legality or NATO standardization rather than functionality or logistics. Can you claify ?
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:37:56 AM EST
CavalryJim,

Go over to the "762 vs 6.8" thread. We've hashed it out there. Basically, virtually everything, including 6.8SPC, has a trajectory almost 2x better than 7.62x39.

-z
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:47:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:56:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By CavalryJim:
I have nothing against the 6.8 or 6.5 but why do you prefer these cartridges over an AR cambered for 7.62?

Because 7.62 won't fit through a standard AR15 lower!!!! It's as simple as that. I don't want to buy another complete rifle, I'd rather have something that works with the AR15 lowers I already have.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:29:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
All I can tell you is that we were informed that the JAG had killed it about two weks ago. We're speculating as much as everybody else as to the reasons and as soon as I get an answer I will post it.



JAG ? Sounds like a question of Geneva Accords legality or NATO standardization rather than functionality or logistics. Can you claify ?




It makes no sense at all that JAG would be closing a project, perhaps he meant someone else.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:36:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stickman:


It makes no sense at all that JAG would be closing a project, perhaps he meant someone else.



If JAG comes to the conclusion that any use of this type of cartridge is going to break international laws/treaties, then they could suggest the project be closed. However, it would seem that if this was the case, changing the actual bullet would fix it. But I don't know.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 9:34:34 AM EST
M855, M193 and the sierra 77gr. SMK fragment as a result of their design but were not "desgined to fragment". the 6.8mm was designed with fragmentation as a desired endpoint. That difference of _intention_ would quite possibly be construed as a violation of conventions we abide by.

No flames please- I'm not endorsing this policy but its very easy for me to see how JAG would have a problem with this.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 12:22:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By Stickman:


It makes no sense at all that JAG would be closing a project, perhaps he meant someone else.



If JAG comes to the conclusion that any use of this type of cartridge is going to break international laws/treaties, then they could suggest the project be closed. However, it would seem that if this was the case, changing the actual bullet would fix it. But I don't know.



The U.S. didn't sign such treaties requiring FMJ's only (far as I know). Also the treaties only apply to the nations whom signed it. Iraq, Afgan., and terrists did not sign any treaty. All is fair game.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 12:43:47 PM EST
JAG ruled on the projectile, we know that much. The poor showings at SHOT and Blackwater appear to be the final nail.
HFG
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 1:32:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ahab:
M855, M193 and the sierra 77gr. SMK fragment as a result of their design but were not "desgined to fragment". the 6.8mm was designed with fragmentation as a desired endpoint. That difference of _intention_ would quite possibly be construed as a violation of conventions we abide by.

No flames please- I'm not endorsing this policy but its very easy for me to see how JAG would have a problem with this.



77gr was chosen expressly because it fragments more and at longer distances. Same for the 6.8 projectile. Both are OTM and JAG ruled 7.62x51 OTM to be legal well more than a decade ago.

Also, this is for issue to SF. JAG allows NSW to use Black Talons/Ranger SXT 230 .45 ammo in their USP Tacticals and MK23s, against terrorists and other NGOs.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 1:54:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Also, this is for issue to SF. JAG allows NSW to use Black Talons/Ranger SXT 230 .45 ammo in their USP Tacticals and MK23s, against terrorists and other NGOs.



Good point, the treaties/laws only apply to armies of countries, not terrorist or other non official organizations.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 1:55:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
JAG ruled on the projectile, we know that much. The poor showings at SHOT and Blackwater appear to be the final nail.
HFG



What do you mean by poor showings, poor like they performed poorly or poor as in little interest. Just curious.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:17:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
JAG ruled on the projectile, we know that much. The poor showings at SHOT and Blackwater appear to be the final nail.
HFG



What do you mean by poor showings, poor like they performed poorly or poor as in little interest. Just curious.

Thanks



The weapons failed to perform as everyone had expected. They proved themselves to be very unreliable.
HFG
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:17:18 PM EST
i think you'll see it used by special forces and more front line units... but for service support... they'll be using 556
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:59:58 PM EST
I would like to see the military keep this project active, any problems can be addressed. As for me I have bullets, brass and reloading dies now and next on the list are mags and a complete upper. Even if the military higher ups scrap this project it should make little difference to those who can see that it is a real step up from 5.56mm.
I have to think some of this may be a timing thing, with all reports of the XM8 being the next service rifle, combined with the War On Terror a caliber change would seem to be a hard one to push through now.
My final take on this is if we build the rifles Remington or another ammo maker will meet that demand. So if some of you are on the fence about the 6.8 it's time to jump in and make it happen.

Build it and They Will Come!

Joe
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:08:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Ahab:
M855, M193 and the sierra 77gr. SMK fragment as a result of their design but were not "desgined to fragment". the 6.8mm was designed with fragmentation as a desired endpoint. That difference of _intention_ would quite possibly be construed as a violation of conventions we abide by.

No flames please- I'm not endorsing this policy but its very easy for me to see how JAG would have a problem with this.



77gr was chosen expressly because it fragments more and at longer distances.


I was told that the 77gr. was chosen years ago for issue with the SPR for accuracy alone- The terminal effects were more of a fortuitous "side-effect" than a goal.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:12:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:20:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:34:41 PM EST
Last I heard those Barrets were early/pre-production, they (as a company) had bugs in the production not in the design-which I am sure they are/have addressing(-ed). Time will tell noting else will.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:44:59 PM EST
They (Barrett) have been heavily advertising both their upper and complete 6.8mm rifle in numerous publications. I think coined the M468 (I'm not sure that's right). I was under the impression that these were already in production. I've also heard that PRI (don't know about that either) was making magazines for this round in high capacity 28 rds (?).



-REAPER2502
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:08:03 PM EST
I have no reason to doubt that the military is "through" with the 6.8. Likewise I have no reason to believe they are "through" with it either. I have always had problems with "they", "them", the un-named source who knows "they" & "them". Are "they" done with it because an AR isn't functioning? Didn't the AR not function right in it's youth? Because the AR didn't perform, "they" are scraping the whole show? I don't know. I know nothing but the opinions I can express to anyone who cares to listen. If the military is done with the 6.8, is the 6.8 dead. I don't think so. As was said before, many calibers exist without the military's help. Cheap ammo? O.K. What about the 6.5 Gren., 50 Beawolf, Oly's WSM AR's. Are they cheaper than $14.00 a box? Remington put a lot of time and money into this project just to let it die weather or not the military want's it.

No offence to all, just the humble opinion of a Kansas Hick who lives in the Sticks.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 5:20:16 AM EST
6.8 chambered in Rem 700 bolt guns this year. grapevine said mag problems slowing "trials".FWIW
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 5:41:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By MSTN:
A PROPERLY SET UP AR' IN 6.8 SPC, GIVEN APPROPRIATE MAGS AND DECENT AMMO, IS MY IDEA OF ONE FINE ALL AROUND WEAPON: MOA OR BETTER ACCURACY POTENTIAL, 70% MORE MASS X VELOCITY THAN THE 5.56MM, LETHAL PROJECTILES (HORNADY OTM 115 GR) MAKING BIGGER HOLES, SAME BASIC WEIGHT AS A RECCE/RECON CARBINE, ABOUT 7.5 LB WITHOUT OPTICS.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.



My MSTN built 6.8SPC (16.5") is one accurate carbine. I have an MRP inbound from Wes, that will also go 6.8SPC when ever LMT produces barrels & bolts.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:33:45 AM EST
If you other MRP guys want 6.8 barrels, be sure to call or email LMT and tell them so.

-z
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 12:41:39 PM EST
remington had their model 700 light tactical rifles in 6.8 spc at the vagas shot show and there was talk of them chambering their model 7 hunting rifle for it , so it would only be fair to speculate that if they had put up the cash for r&d and tooling on the round and rifles, and there is growing intrest in the civillian and leo markets, then they will release the round and components regaurdless of what the millitary does or doesn't do, and with hornady and sierra making bullets which they provided for the testing, I can't see them not releasing it to the general public to recoup some of their capital.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:59:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
If you other MRP guys want 6.8 barrels, be sure to call or email LMT and tell them so.

-z



I want one. Contact info?
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 4:04:49 PM EST
Forget Barrett and their overpriced uppers. Check this out: www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=UME146R4&storeid=1&image=um414pre68rem.gif
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:00:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:23:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:54:45 PM EST
I just sent an Email to LMT requesting a 6.8mm MRP.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:19:13 AM EST
So far, nothing but rumors and speculation here. I can only conclude that the round is okay.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:38:00 PM EST
I'm going to say that it ain't dead yet. Got guns and ammo headed my way.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:00:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
I'm going to say that it ain't dead yet. Got guns and ammo headed my way.




Well gentlemen, there you have it.

Combat_Diver, we want pics. Please?
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