Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/23/2003 7:57:03 AM EDT
This message stems from an earlier thread posted about the IOR Valdada, a Romanian (read: former Soviet Bloc) manufacturer. The scope comes with little info explaining its chevrons and mildots, particularly the mildots arranged along the horizontal aiming line refered to as "deflection corrections."

That said, some questions remain about the use of mildot scopes. Those of us on the IOR thread were hoping wiser and more experienced heads could help us with using the mil dots.

Here are a few questions we'd like to start with.

While I understand the basic math/trig of the MIL DOT scale covering 3.6" at 100 yards. What I am curious about are the more practical aspects of the usage of that targeting scale in combat situations. These are a few of the questions I can think of.
• Do advanced shooters use the left and right scale to make windage adjustments in situations when you can't stop and click the windage knob?

• Do advanced shooters use this scale to lead targets?

• Do advanced shooters use the vertical scale as hold over adjustments in situations where they must adjust for bullet trajectory, but do not have time to click range knob (BDC)?

• How realistically useful is the MIL DOT scale for range estimation?


I'm also curious about what I don't know to ask with the usage of the MIL DOT scale.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:15:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SIGnature: This message stems from an earlier thread posted about the IOR Valdada, a Romanian (read: former Soviet Bloc) manufacturer. The scope comes with little info explaining its chevrons and mildots, particularly the mildots arranged along the horizontal aiming line refered to as "deflection corrections." That said, some questions remain about the use of mildot scopes. Those of us on the IOR thread were hoping wiser and more experienced heads could help us with using the mil dots. Here are a few questions we'd like to start with. While I understand the basic math/trig of the MIL DOT scale covering 3.6" at 100 yards. What I am curious about are the more practical aspects of the usage of that targeting scale in combat situations. These are a few of the questions I can think of. • Do advanced shooters use the left and right scale to make windage adjustments in situations when you can't stop and click the windage knob? • Do advanced shooters use this scale to lead targets? • Do advanced shooters use the vertical scale as hold over adjustments in situations where they must adjust for bullet trajectory, but do not have time to click range knob (BDC)? • How realistically useful is the MIL DOT scale for range estimation? I'm also curious about what I don't know to ask with the usage of the MIL DOT scale.
View Quote
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes 4) Takes practice. It does work well, but only with some practice. I think of it as a backup to my laser.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:01:12 AM EDT
Here's another notion we've been batting around. The horizontal deflection scale is measure in mils -- it starts at 10 left, then five, then zero, then five right, ten right... Since it is difficult or nearly impossible to determine speeds of a moving target (that are likely to vary) by doing computations using the mils scale, could the "deflection correction" scale be used in a different way? For example, you target a deer in the woods. By using the "DC" scale you determined BDC. However, rather than using DC scale for the difficult or impossible task of determining speed, you do this: Assumethe deer is moving left to right; you sight on the far left DC hatch (10) and fire on the middle hatch (05). Here's what happens: Assuming the target is moving at a relatively constant speed from hatch 10 through hatch 05, you squeeze off the shot at 05, assuming the shot will arrive at the target just as it reaches the center-zero chevron. Or am I wrong? Perhaps just unclear! It seems to me that in real life there's too little time and too many variables to make adjustments in your head, on the fly. Instead, the DC acts like a analog computer and makes the assumption of where the moving target will be after following it from 10 mils to 05mils along the DC scale. Thus, when you fire at 05 mils on the DC scale (after tracking it from 10 to 05), the target should arrive at 0 at the same rate it moved from left to right -- 10 to 05. Bang, you hit the deer. The DC scale is a rough analog computer. 'Makes sense to me: No calculations, no adjustments, no taking your eye off the target and, most important of all, no need to move the gun to track the target.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:47:23 AM EDT
Oookay..I'll try to condense this if I can, since I'm at lunch..so I'll probably have to come back later and address these points in more detail. First, wind shooting.... I'm going to assume that you understand 'value' of wind...e.g. full value, half-value, etc. A sniper will use MOAs to determine and adjust corrections necessary on the scope. To get your wind value in MOA, use the following formula: Range(hundreds) x Velocity(MPH) ------------------------------- = MOA of FV Given Variable For the 168gr GMM, the given variable is always 10. FV= full value wind. Example: target is 700 yards, wind is 10 mph, 090 to your LOF. 7 x 10 ------ = 7 MOA 10 You would halve that answer for a 1/2 value wind, or 3.5 MOA. Your hold would be about 1.4 mils off at this 700 yard example. More to follow when I get more time... QS
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 7:43:01 AM EDT
So the answer is, no. You can't use the mil-dot deflection corrections as an analog computer. Correct?
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 1:05:03 PM EDT
I guess not the way you're describing.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 1:17:43 PM EDT
So, do I take it from this discussion that for advanced use, the shooter must have memorized: [list][*]The bullet trajectory and drop at various yards so they can adjust on the fly.[/*] [*]The windage adjustments at various ranges so they can adjust on the fly.[/*] [*]The moving target leading amounts at various speeds/ranges so they can adjust on the fly.[/*][/list] Once you have these memorized, then the shooter can make adjustments using the MIL DOT scale to aim at the proper point of impact, quickly, without having to click the elevation or windage knob? Wow. If this is the usage of the MIL DOT scale, then it seems that it was designed for rapid, fluid battle situations where the shooter does not have time for a 'leisurely' adjustment. For those of you with a lot more experience/training: Does this properly identify the design purpose of this scale?
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 1:36:49 PM EDT
MilDot Master, anyone who does not have one but has a MilDot reticle OWES it to themselves to get one of these little slide rule thingys. Most awesome useful gadget made. Some of the things on it seem to explain themselves once you get it into your hand and use it for awhile. Some values will become like second nature to you once you get experience with it.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 1:46:15 PM EDT
Karl, Hi. 'Liked your family webpage. I'm gonna show it to my kids. Help me out. I don't recall whether you got an answer to your question about the chevrons on the Dragunov site. You asked: "What is the size and distance between the vertical chevrons?" 'Be neat to know... Probably useful, too! You also mentioned a site -- www.france-collection.com/manuals/ Lunettes/posp_6_8x42_manual.pdf Is that correct? I get a dead link when I click on it. SIG
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 7:01:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2003 7:04:10 PM EDT by karlknapp]
Hey SIG. I did get some MIL measurements between the chevrons. While these don't come from a manual, I used a fairly high resolution (4 Megapixal) digital camera to photograph the reticle. I then used the known size of the hashmarks on the horizontal axis to measure the distance between the tops of each of the chevrons. The measurements are: [list][*]From the tip of the center chevron to the tip of the second chevron (1st beneath the horizontal axis) is 2.5 MILS.[/*] [*]From the tip of the second chevron to the third is 3.0 MILS.[/*] [*]From the tip of the third chevron to the fourth is 3.2 MILS.[/*][/list] As for the link, there was an extra space in the address. Try: [url]www.france-collection.com/manuals/Lunettes/posp_6_8x42_manual.pdf[/url] Glad you like the family web site. The local weather used to come up automatically, but they changed the address to the local forecast. Oh well. I haven't had much time to fool with it. Sounds like we got our answer on the MIL DOT scale. Looks like we need to use our 'wetware' to memorize and calculate bullet drop, windage, and motion of targets when determining how many MILS to aim from the center if we don't have time to click the BDC or windage knob. I don't know about you, but I need a lot more practice with the gun and the scope. Good shooting! Karl
Top Top