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Posted: 8/16/2005 10:12:22 AM EDT
The Giffman barrels @ ADCO for $100.00??

I was almost tempted until I read the description.

I know about the 1/8'' "shortness" deal-don't wanna re-hash that subject, but never heard anything but good things about them otherwise.

Just curious.

www.adcofirearms.com/itemdetails.cfm?inventorynumber=3604
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:16:49 AM EDT
I have to give Steve a lot of credit for honesty in advertising.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:19:47 AM EDT
I must have missed it.

What is wrong with these barrels?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:28:37 AM EDT
Whenever possible, I buy from ADCO. Good guys, a real asset to the shooting community.

These do look like a good deal. Kinda on the fence.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:40:35 AM EDT
Great opening line on that one......



"These are the biggest pieces of low quality of shit I have ever had the misfortune of losing hundreds(probably over 1000) of dollars on"

I think I'll stay away.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:45:32 AM EDT
I was also wondering what the deal was with the barrels. I was originally in on the group buy but (apparently luckily) backed out when they were taking too long.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:59:50 AM EDT
Damn!
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:00:20 AM EDT
Description says "very poor quality some are good some are junk". I don't want to be the guiney pig.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:08:49 AM EDT
A couple of us have asked about this on his EE thread. I've also sent him an email. Haven't heard anything back yet. $100 is an awesome deal. But given his pull-no-punches description of the quality of these barrels and the fact that he's consistently defended both Giffman and the barrels until recently, something must have gone south in a big way. I'm waiting to hear before I take the risk.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:11:10 AM EDT
Tagged. I bought one of these bbls from CMMG but it's worked out fine so far.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:15:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcase:
I have to give Steve a lot of credit for honesty in advertising.



Seriously. My hat's off to Steve.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:46:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 11:47:19 AM EDT by mongo001]
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:49:17 AM EDT
Mongo,
Can you explain some of the other problems with the barrels?
If its not to be aired, you can PM or email me...
Thanks....
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:05:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Frntsyt:
Mongo,
Can you explain some of the other problems with the barrels?
If its not to be aired, you can PM or email me...
Thanks....



Let's just say I had issues with it, and I wasn't the only one. I had conversations via email, IM and telephone with people who also had similiar issues, and not just anybody type of people either. There was one of the bigger names on this forum I talked to indepth about this issue. I'd bet Steve got a few in return with the same issues, but I don't know for sure, that's just a guess. Why else would he list them the way he did? I'll email/IM whoever wants to know what my issue was.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:06:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:12:20 PM EDT
Why won't anyone just come out and say what is wrong?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:19:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?



I had severe fail to extract and failure to chamber issues - upwards of 40%. Through my scientific and unscientific research, I concluded that it was barrel related, specifically chamber related.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?



I had severe fail to extract and failure to chamber issues - upwards of 40%. Through my scientific and unscientific research, I concluded that it was barrel related, specifically chamber related.



Okay thanks.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:26:48 PM EDT
Poor accuracy issues I would imagine, as well as some functioning issues considering the gas tube is 1/8" less in contact with the carrier key (as a result of the gasport being drill 1/8" further forward than spec).

Searching through some other threads I found mention of the barrel not being able to hit a 4' by 4' target at 500 yards (worse than 10 moa? can you say AK).

I recently picked up one from another board member so I am curious to see for myself.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:37:49 PM EDT
Argh. I'm going to have to get mine out past 50 yds next time I got shooting to see how it groups at 100 yds. I've had no feeding or extraction problems so mine's probably OK but man, I don't like to think I "gambled" on a $250 bbl.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:20:09 PM EDT
who was the manufacturer of that barrel ?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:23:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?



I had severe fail to extract and failure to chamber issues - upwards of 40%. Through my scientific and unscientific research, I concluded that it was barrel related, specifically chamber related.


same issue i had with mine, it's the chamber. barrel was very accurate for me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:43:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By exocet:
who was the manufacturer of that barrel ?



CMMG
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:47:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 2:04:22 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By G_MAN:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?



I had severe fail to extract and failure to chamber issues - upwards of 40%. Through my scientific and unscientific research, I concluded that it was barrel related, specifically chamber related.


same issue i had with mine, it's the chamber. barrel was very accurate for me.



I couldn't say about accuracy. Out of the 40 rounds I tried, about five would simply not chamber. And about 10 had the case rims ripped off when they tried to eject. I had to tap them out with a cleaning rod. I never got it sighted in. In fact, I wanted to toss the whole rifle downrange and be done with it, that afternoon.


The only thing that baffles me is how some run so good and others would not run. I'm not the only one who experienced this problem. I talked with others, some very reputable builders/suppliers here on the boards.

And I guess since bigbore let the cat out of the bag, I can speak a little more freely than I did in the past about this issue.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 2:14:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By G_MAN:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I can attest to these being less than stellar. You are truly gambling if you buy one of these, but the $100 gamble isn't much to some.



When you say less then stellar, what are you referring to?

Anything that affects the function of the barrel?



I had severe fail to extract and failure to chamber issues - upwards of 40%. Through my scientific and unscientific research, I concluded that it was barrel related, specifically chamber related.


same issue i had with mine, it's the chamber. barrel was very accurate for me.



I couldn't say about accuracy. Out of the 40 rounds I tried, about five would simply not chamber. And about 10 had the case rims ripped off when they tried to eject. I had to tap them out with a cleaning rod. I never got it sighted in. In fact, I wanted to toss the whole rifle downrange and be done with it, that afternoon.


The only thing that baffles me is how some run so good and others would not run. I'm not the only one who experienced this problem. I talked with others, some very reputable builders/suppliers here on the boards.




Ouch! Thanks for the information.

I feel bad for all involved. It seems some honest, hardworking dealers are still feeling the sting over this one. The thing is, it was a good idea. Someone went out on a limb to make it happen. Alas, no good deed goes unpunished...

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:00:09 PM EDT
Would it really be that hard for ADCO to look for the out-of-spec chambers that appear to be causing hte problems?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:07:53 PM EDT
Does anyone know why CMMG didn't just scrap this entire run of barrels and start from scratch?

Corey
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:13:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:
Does anyone know why CMMG didn't just scrap this entire run of barrels and start from scratch?

Corey





$$$$$$
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:14:39 PM EDT
This is just fucking great! First, that asshole Danny Sheridan won't return any of my calls then lies outright on the forums about sending me a refund (yea, check is in the mail), now this! I told Giffman to send me the barrel so that I would have something to show other than a sore ass. I was going to sell the barrel at a loss to get something out of it, now I won't be able to give it away! Maybe I can put some HG's on it and use it as a beater.....oh wait, handguards don't fit & the chambers won't extract. Group buy my ass! Sounds more like a group taking it up the ass!

Robert
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:18:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 7:19:17 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By Tac2cal:
This is just fucking great! First, that asshole Danny Sheridan won't return any of my calls then lies outright on the forums about sending me a refund (yea, check is in the mail), now this! I told Giffman to send me the barrel so that I would have something to show other than a sore ass. I was going to sell the barrel at a loss to get something out of it, now I won't be able to give it away! Maybe I can put some HG's on it and use it as a beater.....oh wait, handguards don't fit & the chambers won't extract. Group buy my ass! Sounds more like a group taking it up the ass!

Robert



Here's my recommendation: I'd put it together and see what happens. I'd run strictly military surplus ammo through it. In fact, I'd run some steel cased Wolf through it. That may clean and smooth out the chamber some, if there are any defects present. If it runs, good for you. If it doesn't, then you're back to where you are now. I'd say it's at least worth a try. TIFWIW. No malice or anything else intended.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:22:10 PM EDT
I got one in the group buy and used 2 handguard caps and the std handguards are nice and tight. I have not tried shooting it out to 600 yds, but I can hit a ~12" gong pretty easily at 200yds and a ~18" one at 300yds with the eotech I have on it. I have shot a lot of wolf through it, but have had a couple stick in the chamber which has been my only complaint. I finally chucked up a section of cleaning rod in a drill and hit the chamber with a chamber brush with the drill, but I haven't shot it again yet
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:45:35 PM EDT
Damn, first I've heard of the chamber issue. I put mine in a build with all top of the line gear. Haven't shot it yet, been waiting for the right optics. Looks like I better go shoot it and make sure it's gonna work.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:06:33 PM EDT
Thanks be to God I got my refund for my two barrels from Giffman when the first problem with the fsb location was noted.

I think everyone at CMMG should commit suicide over this mess!
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:08:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 8:08:51 PM EDT by sapper326]
I got one from ADCO for $240 and have been waiting for the money to buy a float tube for the build. Now I just order a DD 12.0 from them and find out that the barrel may (probably) wont function right and there only going for $100 now. Oh why did I not just wait. I mean $140 difference in a "could be bad" barrel is alot. Well I guess these things happen. ADCO is aces in my book and I think this whole thing just sucks that they even had to get stuck with these things.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:21:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Corey:
Does anyone know why CMMG didn't just scrap this entire run of barrels and start from scratch?

Corey





$$$$$$www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif



Yeah, it's a cut throat world out there. But when law abiding citizens and LEO's could be using your products to defend their lives, at what point does a monetary loss justify a FTE (particularly when you could be at fault)?

"One and a million doesn't mean shit if you're the one."

Corey
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:23:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sapper326:
I got one from ADCO for $240 and have been waiting for the money to buy a float tube for the build. Now I just order a DD 12.0 from them and find out that the barrel may (probably) wont function right and there only going for $100 now. Oh why did I not just wait. I mean $140 difference in a "could be bad" barrel is alot. Well I guess these things happen. ADCO is aces in my book and I think this whole thing just sucks that they even had to get stuck with these things.



Picked up an upper from Steve a couple of months ago. I was aware of the infamous eighth, but it doesn't matter with a free float. About a 1000 rounds downrange, no problems. Accuracy seems to be about 1 moa out to 100, haven't checked beyond that.
I did my best to check into these bbls. before buying, and didn't see any reports about these problems. Did see the post about the lack of 600 yd accuracy, but this isn't the gun I'd use for that.

If you purchased at full pop from Steve I don't think you have to worry. I think that you can rely on ADCO's reputation, I know I did. I can't say I was happy to see this post for many of the same reasons other posters have mentioned, not do I think that Steve's approach to this is the soundest in terms of business practices. But, hey, that's his privelge. I can certainly sympathize with not wanting to deal with problems that weren't of your making..
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:23:47 PM EDT
I got one of these bbls from the guys at CMMG and it shoots fine. I'm not the best shot, but I was getting groups of 2.5" at a 100 meters with Irons. I'd say that's pretty good.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:44:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Tac2cal:
This is just fucking great! First, that asshole Danny Sheridan won't return any of my calls then lies outright on the forums about sending me a refund (yea, check is in the mail), now this! I told Giffman to send me the barrel so that I would have something to show other than a sore ass. I was going to sell the barrel at a loss to get something out of it, now I won't be able to give it away! Maybe I can put some HG's on it and use it as a beater.....oh wait, handguards don't fit & the chambers won't extract. Group buy my ass! Sounds more like a group taking it up the ass!

Robert



Here's my recommendation: I'd put it together and see what happens. I'd run strictly military surplus ammo through it. In fact, I'd run some steel cased Wolf through it. That may clean and smooth out the chamber some, if there are any defects present. If it runs, good for you. If it doesn't, then you're back to where you are now. I'd say it's at least worth a try. TIFWIW. No malice or anything else intended.



I thought that these were chrome lined chambers?? Can chrome be smoothed out or polished? I'm glad that I bought one of the Mid-lengths from Talon Arms! Now that's a barrel! I hope it shoots as good as it looks.

Robert
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:26:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tac2cal:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By Tac2cal:
This is just fucking great! First, that asshole Danny Sheridan won't return any of my calls then lies outright on the forums about sending me a refund (yea, check is in the mail), now this! I told Giffman to send me the barrel so that I would have something to show other than a sore ass. I was going to sell the barrel at a loss to get something out of it, now I won't be able to give it away! Maybe I can put some HG's on it and use it as a beater.....oh wait, handguards don't fit & the chambers won't extract. Group buy my ass! Sounds more like a group taking it up the ass!

Robert



Here's my recommendation: I'd put it together and see what happens. I'd run strictly military surplus ammo through it. In fact, I'd run some steel cased Wolf through it. That may clean and smooth out the chamber some, if there are any defects present. If it runs, good for you. If it doesn't, then you're back to where you are now. I'd say it's at least worth a try. TIFWIW. No malice or anything else intended.



I thought that these were chrome lined chambers?? Can chrome be smoothed out or polished? I'm glad that I bought one of the Mid-lengths from Talon Arms! Now that's a barrel! I hope it shoots as good as it looks.

Robert



Dont praise it, til you try it. I havent heard much feedback about those. I'm still waiting to hear it before I commit.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:29:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Dont praise it, til you try it. I havent heard much feedback about those. I'm still waiting to hear it before I commit.



I have had a very good experience with a Sabre 1/9 midlength. Very accurate and reliable. That was swapped out due to them changing their taper pin setup somewhat (to make them easier to remove for builds). I now have a 1/7 that was assembled by Sabre and looks to have been test fired. I haven't fire the 1/7, but expect the same excellent accuracy and reliability.

If a Sabre barrel doesn't work, they're always making more to replace yours with.

Corey
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:30:11 AM EDT
Yes, CMMG has a liability factor in this one... if they made the barrels and some officer is using one on a patrol carbine... well...

Anyway, what has CMMG stated about this publicly? Or are they just playing the "it's all fine... it's only cosmetic" type stuff?
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:38:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 5:54:12 AM EDT by 1IV]
Wow someone did not catch the fact that they had a bad ream in their mill, or something... Jezus that kind of mistake getting past QA at a machine shop is unthinkable. Good for Steve for calling a spade a spade. If you figure the shop had five guys making these. One of them has a rough tool in his machine... One in five is going to be a problem for chambering. Wow... Bad news. It happens in shops, but usualy is caught and remade befor they go out the door. I used to run a CNC machine. Bad operator for not checking his work. But I had a bad MAS .308 that had chambering issues, or a rough chamber, and it worked with steel case .308 fine. So Brass is a little too flexible for the chatter in the chamber. There are workarounds.

I will let you all know if I get a winner or a looser on my investment, I can always use it in one of my sculptures if it sucks ....
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:53:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 5:55:33 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Dont praise it, til you try it. I havent heard much feedback about those. I'm still waiting to hear it before I commit.



Sabre is an ISO 9001-2000 certified US government contrator for machine guns barrels.

Making AR barrels is a walk in the park for them and they are not afriad to throw a whole batch in the trash if they don't pass QC.

BTW, I replied to your range report request on the Sabre thread.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:57:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 5:58:23 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By 1IV:
Wow someone did not catch the fact that they had a bad ream in their mill, or something... Jezus that kind of mistake getting past QA at a machine shop is unthinkable. Good for Steve for calling a spade a spade. If you figure the shop had five guys making these. One of them has a rough tool in his machine... One in five is going to be a problem for chambering. Wow... Bad news. It happens in shops, but usualy is caught and remade befor they go out the door. I used to run a CNC machine. Bad operator for not checking his work. But I had a bad MAS .308 that had chambering issues, or a rough chamber, and it worked with steel case .308 fine. So Brass is a little too flexible for the chatter in the chamber. There are workarounds.

I will let you all know if I get a winner or a looser on my investment, I can always use it in one of my sculptures if it sucks ....



You're thinking along the same lines I was. I was thinking more of a beginning of reamer life vs. an end of reamer life scenario, with the chambers at the end of reamer life being rougher than the beginning of life chambers, but I really have no idea how long a reamer would last, in terms of how many chambers it can cut. Just my wild a$$ed SWAG, though.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:53:19 AM EDT
Boy am I glad I got my $500 back in stead of taking possession of the barrels...
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:54:20 AM EDT
I am wondering if I should even bother installing this barrel? I dont want to take a chance on the time when I need it most, it not functioning. Is there any way to visually check the barrel for problems or correct any possible issues before hand, ie. bore brush in drill idea? Also were the FTE FTF issues notice right from day one or did they take a little while for them to be an issue? Thanks for any info.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 7:50:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 12:29:34 PM EDT by 0123456789]
I think these barrels have lots of problems. I have heard chamber size, fsb location, chrome lining problems and gas port size. I remember looking at a picture of one with the FSB off and the gas port looked way too big. Might have been drilled carbine size.

Edit: Forgot about the M4 feedramps that don't match the feedramps on uppers.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:35:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 6:18:34 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:45:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:57:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jtb33:
Yes, CMMG has a liability factor in this one... if they made the barrels and some officer is using one on a patrol carbine... well...

Anyway, what has CMMG stated about this publicly? Or are they just playing the "it's all fine... it's only cosmetic" type stuff?



They are probably playing the "maybe if I dont reply no one will know the wiser."

Or they are to busy taking pictures of themselves with their products and great giant pimples on their foreheads.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:08:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
There is no way to look and tel lif its good or not. I had 25 of these barrels, and 2 that I sold were duds. Mongo bought his from another source. The odds are its OK, but your know after the 3 or 4th mag through if you have a good one or not.

That's good to know bigbore. I've put 230 rounds through mine without a hitch. I still want to verify the accuracy at at least 100 yds though.

Man, I'm going to have to call CMMG on the phone about this one.
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