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Posted: 9/1/2004 6:47:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 8:55:16 AM EST by monkeyman]
Ok kids,

I got me a stripped lower, lower parts kit, pistol buffer, 11.5" flattop upper and am just waiting for the ban to expire. Total cost is $589.99 which includes shipping for everything and the lower transfer fee. I will put a pistol scope or red dot on it that I already have.

Opps, forgot something, looks like the total will be $609.99. Damn it didn't seem so bad before.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 7:36:26 AM EST
cool, whose kit?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 7:36:57 AM EST
where are you in MI
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:20:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 9:21:49 AM EST by monkeyman]
The lower is a Stag Arms, paid for but not picked up from the dealer yet. I don't want to be accused of having an AW before the ban expires. The upper is a Model 1 kit 11.5 with A3 upper with gas block front sight base. BTW, if you order a 11.5" bbl you have to tell them it is for a pistol otherwise they want a class 2/3 ffl.

I am in Sterling Hts. I've already talked to the State Police. They do not consider it a pistol until assembled. They say that I would have 10 or 15 days (I can't remember) from the date of assembly to register it as a pistol.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 9:53:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 10:02:16 AM EST by otto_esq]
If you have other AR-type rifles around, you may want to keep the complete 11.5" upper in a separate location until you can legally build the pistol.

Reasons:
1. it is compatible with the standard AR (rifle) lowers

2. the AR rifle and 11.5 upper are readily joined by 2 push-pins

3. the resulting combination wold be an unregistered SBR

4. possession of the 11.5 upper without a legitimate reason constituted constructive possession of an SBR by the defendant and resulted in his conviction of violating the NFA.
United States v. Kent 175 F.3d 870 (USCA 11 Cir, 1999)


"The evidence indicates that the upper receiver unit was a complete, intact unit and that this short-barreled upper receiver unit was "compatible" and could be interchanged readily with the upper receiver unit on the Colt AR-15. Moreover, an ATF agent testified that the result of interchanging these upper receiver units would be "a weapon which is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder, capable of discharging a shot through a rifle bore[,] and having a barrel length of less than sixteen inches." Because the short-barreled upper receiver unit and the Colt AR-15 lower receiver unit were located in the same, small apartment and could be connected so quickly and easily, creating an operable short-barreled rifle with only a minimum of effort, evidence that Kent possessed both of these units was sufficient to prove that Kent possessed a "rifle having a barrel ... of less than 16 inches in length" for purposes of § 5861(d)."

175 F.3d 870 at 874.

Arguably you will have a legitimate reason: making a legal pistol after 9/13, but you don't have a pistol lower yet, and it isn't legal to build one that way yet, and you can't convert any existing rifles to the pistol configuration without ATF Form 1 approval.

Will this be an issue? probably not. When were you last raided by the police or ATF?
But MI is not a friendly state to NFA weapons, so there may be state issues involved as well, and NFA federal violations are 10 years/$10,000.

The dealer is already holding the receiver so that you are completely within the AWB laws; if I were you, I'd ask him to hold on to the upper and avoid all potential NFA problems as well. After all, the constructive possession issue applies to the NFA, not the AWB.

Just my $.02.

Cheers, Otto


ETA: I have a Model1 pistol as well (7.5"), but mine is the fixed-mag type, so I am awaiting the death of the ban as well; detachable mags will make shooting the thing much more convenient.
To avoid NFA issues, I used the screw-type pivot pin with sling swivel in place of the front takedown pin, and locktited it in place, so that the upper is not readily attachable to any of my AR rifle lowers. Probably not necessary, for the pistol lower is a legitimate reason for the upper, but that was an easy way to avoid several more issues in Kent altogether.

Enjoy the pistol; the pyrotech flash is a lot of fun.

Cheers,
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:16:55 AM EST
i want a 7.5
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:18:10 AM EST
otto..

how does the 7.5 function?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:23:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 11:39:25 AM EST by otto_esq]
Here you go:Model!Sales Pistol kits ($450)

Here is the pivot pin I mentioned:Brownells ($13.50)

The muzzle blast gets you noticed at the range.

Cheers, Otto

ETA: I built my own using a Model1 barrel and pistol buffer set-up, and I had a Les Baer A3 upper with no F/A. The pistol recoil spring is very snappy, and the breach closes with authority! However, the rediculous loading proceedure with a fixed magazine means I kinked the recoil spring before I even fired it, and that may be part of the reason I was experiencing "bolt bounce".
The round would chamber using the charging handle, but the second hammer drop was on a firing pin that was out of battery due to the bolt carrier bouncing back and remaining back I suspect due to drag on the carrier from the mag, odd recoil spring, lighter overall mass of the B/BC group sans buttstock buffer, etc-- the hammer strike would merely close the action. With no F/A to tap between rounds, you can imagine the frustration getting the problem fixed with a fixed 10 round mag.

It became essentially a Bang-clunk-damn-(charging handle w/ eject of live round)-bang-clunk-damn,damn-etc. And after a couple of cycles of 5 holes in the target, 5 ejected live rounds on the bench, and having to disassemble the thing to reload it, I decided to replace the upper to one with a F/A, and replace the recoil spring ($5 from Model1, order spares with the kit for they seem to compress after only a few rounds).
I have not had the chance to shoot it again after these replacements, and I think I'm waiting to complete the modifications after 9/13 to range test it. Bolt bounce and drag on the bolt carrier should be easier to diagnose with a magazine that you can remove, I suspect.

Looking forward to it, though.

Cheers,
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:30:38 AM EST
Otto....

I am glad you are here! You provide good, honest, and rational oppinions!

Now, if it were me I wouldn't worry much but I am curious why you didn't just build as a non-ban and get her built and then convert her to a legal semi after the ban is gone... Then again, not many day left huh
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:42:47 AM EST
i really want to do the pistol thing for the yeehaa factor, but i want the 7.5 and am concerned with reliability
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 11:48:38 AM EST
Quarterbore:
Good to be here, Thanks.
BTW Still spitting on your keyboard, or do you need to be angry for that to happen?

I did build it as a non-ban (after reading your web site and other resources)
Based on the ATF response to the lower with the fixed mag prototype from Olympic(?), I fixed my 10 (actually 9) round mag in place. Its permanent, but what has been done can be undone --with effort, tools and minor replacement parts, and very little remaining evidence (I hope) of the soon-to-be-dead Cosmetics Ban.

I am very familiar with your non-ban route of "no gas tube-bolt gun" pistol, but I wanted semi-auto (as you can see from the above, I'm not quite to truely semi-auto functioning yet, but one can aspire.)

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 12:23:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 12:24:04 PM EST by Quarterbore]
Otto,

I wasn't clear... I am glad you are here... yea, I spit on my keyboard all the time but sometimes it is wrse then others

I am not clear why monkeyman doesn't build as a non-ban as at least then you have a pistol as opposed to a receiver!
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:16:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Otto,

I wasn't clear... I am glad you are here... yea, I spit on my keyboard all the time but sometimes it is wrse then others

I am not clear why monkeyman doesn't build as a non-ban as at least then you have a pistol as opposed to a receiver!



I intended to build a manualy operated pistol for couple years but just never got around to it. In fact I've bought several stripped receivers in the past with the intention of a pistol but ended up building rifles instead.

My interest in a 11.5" pistol is for long range plinking rather than making fireballs with a shorter barrel. Besides I could always get another 7.5" bbl if I wanted to.
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