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Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:08:24 AM EDT
I have personally talked to 3 different guys I have known for years that have been to Iraq. I asked them all about the effectiveness of 5.56. They just laugh. They said it is VERY effective.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:13:13 AM EDT
IMHO, I believe that the NATO 5.56 round is very effective... It all leads back to shot placement... No matter what caliber your using, unless the shot is placed properly, you can have big troubles...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:15:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:44:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
IMHO, I believe that the NATO 5.56 round is very effective... It all leads back to shot placement... No matter what caliber your using, unless the shot is placed properly, you can have big troubles...



I have always been a "BIG" proponent of shot placement, over caliber. But when the sh**storm comes...you see results like the guys in that blog ....
Of course, it can always be argued, that lead through the "right" place beats numbers and size...sometimes even speed...tough call on the battle they were in...that CSM deserves a Medal of Honor...or at least DSC....throw down the empty weapon; body tackle and subdue the armed sh**bag...then drag him out in the street...he's the "MAN".....heHO......Thank______________________________________________________________________________________

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:44:34 AM EDT
Cool blog, but it is a limited sample.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:51:37 AM EDT
I have zero combat experience. I have no experience shooting humans.

Let me point out that three AKM 7.62mm rounds hit the LTC. He was on the phone to his wife two hours later. The shitbag got hit in non-vital areas and was in the same hospital with the LTC. alive. Can we conclude anything from this? Yes, simply that not every individual copy of a weapon system will immediately kill every individual human.

Can we improve the leathality of 5.56mm ammunition? Yes. Do we need to? Yes. Can you kill someone with the current ammo and weapon? Yes.

G
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:57:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shortarm53:
I love my black rifle...and I've seen a lot of pros and cons re: the effectiveness of the 5.56 NATO ammo.
Here's a real life look at possible inadequacy....under certain circumstances...and why our guys in the military might need a stouter caliber. Just FYI in regards to CQB. Not trying to start any firestorms...

www.michaelyon.blogspot.com/?BMIDS=17063176-43e6075b-76337



fixed it for ya.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:00:25 PM EDT
I've seen this blog. It is good stuff. This particular situation, the enemy fighter may have been on some sort of drug. I mean, he got shot in the jimmy and kept on going! Gotta give him points on that. I'd go down quickly if that happened to me.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:05:10 PM EDT
No experience shooting humans either... My experience comes from killing whitetail deer... No matter how big a hole you put in a whitetail, unless it is placed in to right spot, it isn't going down...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:24:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 12:25:34 PM EDT by SNorman]


Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak--after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man's abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser.



I don't think *anything* is going to take someone out guaranteed with a shot to the abdomen. I read an account of a guy getting hit with a grenade from a 40mm I think that blew him in half, legs completely gone, and the guy was still crawling along for a while with his arms.

And there have been plenty of accounts of our guys getting hit in extremeties or the abdomen, even the chest, from AKs and have lived to talk about it. So, a .30 cal hole isn't a guarantee of anything.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:37:52 PM EDT
I've been reading Michael Yon's BLOG for sometime now and find it very interesting and emotional at the same time.
Prayers have been sent out to LT Col Kurilla and his men.

I have no experience shooting people either, but the 2 tried and true methods of taking the fight out of a man that have been drilled into My head over and over and over and over are:

1.) Shot placement-CNS hits.
2.) Blood loss.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:43:09 PM EDT
2 to the chest and 1 to the head
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:03:24 PM EDT



I don't think *anything* is going to take someone out guaranteed with a shot to the abdomen.



maybe a 120mm round from an M1A. Heard about that in the first gulf war, the gunner forgot to switch to the machine gun, and shot the guy with an armor piercing round

but beyond that, or maybe a 50 cal, like you said, a good shot placement and really just luck will put someone down, or for them lack of being lucky.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:21:36 PM EDT
Quote by Glock23carry


Let me point out that three AKM 7.62mm rounds hit the LTC. He was on the phone to his wife two hours later. The shitbag got hit in non-vital areas and was in the same hospital with the LTC. alive. Can we conclude anything from this? Yes, simply that not every individual copy of a weapon system will immediately kill every individual human.

Can we improve the leathality of 5.56mm ammunition? Yes. Do we need to? Yes. Can you kill someone with the current ammo and weapon? Yes.



Right on the Money...no such think as a Death Ray. Accurate well placed shots in the vital areas until the Threat stops, been that way since the first Matchlock and will continue until we Invent the Death Ray( Which will still most likely be a 1 beam stopper...)

US Soldiers have been doin away with Bad Guys for 40 years with the 5.56MM.. is it the end all be all??? No, but don't fool yourself into thinking the 6.8mmSPC will be a reliable 1 shot fight stopper either. Anecdotal Reports from the Korean war have Chinese Soldiers coming full on after taking hits with 30-06 rds.... Same with 7.62MM later on in other conflicts.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:47:01 PM EDT
I think the only true one shot stop is a head shot. Even with a heart/lung shot it can take a while for any mammal to die. If you miss the vitals or a major artery/vein, they may never stop going.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:55:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 1:58:26 PM EDT by Combatvet]
It's no secret why Iraqi's, Somali's, and every other BG that use the Ak-47 can't hit their target with any real accuracy.

1st thing is a lack of proper training.

2nd is the Black Rifle is a more accurate platform for combat.

We've stuck with the smaller caliber round for more than just cost, and weight reduction. Less recoil = quicker F/U shots and increased accuracy.

Sure way to eliminate the BG's.......... The Mozambique Drill!!!!! But with the AR.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:59:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NevadaARshooter:
I think the only true one shot stop is a head shot. Even with a heart/lung shot it can take a while for any mammal to die. If you miss the vitals or a major artery/vein, they may never stop going.



Head shot or neck shot to sever the spinal cord, that's the way to stop/drop a threat instantly

Its not always an easy thing to do though, considering certain circumstances... That's why I've always practiced the 2 to the chest (to slow'em down) and 1 to the head (to stop the threat) method...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:02:35 PM EDT
I see some posts say things like two shots to the chest, one to the head... shot placement is eveything, etc. Not dismissing that shot placement is, in fact a nice thing to do.

However, has anyone on this thread actually come up on a real bad guy, who is either: a) has the means, opportunity and ability to shoot you; b) is shooting at you; c) any combination thereof and any not mentioned? And hunting [deer, hogs, ground hogs, and so forth] don't count. Has anyone had such an encounter? Have we taken into consideration the adrenaline dump that occurs and you're lucky to hit the target? Remember, whether US Army or ARNG, our guys are just regular people, placed in unusual circumstances.

Just a thought...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:20:37 PM EDT
You know, I don't think any of us want to get shot in the nuts, but still.... that's not exactly the kind of shot I'd expect to drop someone in their tracks.

In this instance, maybe it was a case of the M885 projectiles exiting before they had a chance to fragment. IIRC, one of the problems with the M885 is variation in the depth they penetrate before fragmenting between lots of projectiles.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 5:27:56 PM EDT by ThreeMan]
The 5.56 was created to wound not Kill. The theory was "It takes at least two to carry a wounded person."
Therfore you tie up more enemy fighters.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 6:04:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
I see some posts say things like two shots to the chest, one to the head... shot placement is eveything, etc. Not dismissing that shot placement is, in fact a nice thing to do.

However, has anyone on this thread actually come up on a real bad guy, who is either: a) has the means, opportunity and ability to shoot you; b) is shooting at you; c) any combination thereof and any not mentioned? And hunting [deer, hogs, ground hogs, and so forth] don't count. Has anyone had such an encounter? Have we taken into consideration the adrenaline dump that occurs and you're lucky to hit the target? Remember, whether US Army or ARNG, our guys are just regular people, placed in unusual circumstances.

Just a thought...



That is a good point, but.... We are discussing how effective the 5.56 round is compared to other calibers... The shot placement was brought up because, unless you hit the right spot when shooting the bad guy, there is a chance that he/she will still be able to retaliate, no matter what caliber you are using... My experience with "killing" has proved to me that it is shot placement not caliber that does the job effectively...

If I would ever find myself in a bad situation, chances are that I'm not going to be aiming at your dick when I squeeze off that first shot, its going to be center mass to start with I'm not like those retarded sand fleas with their AK's spraying on a prayer...

I'm well aware that things don't always go as planned too, but I also realize that if it don't go as planned, it doesn't matter what caliber I'm defending myself with, because unless I place a vital shot, I very well could be in deep shit...

Hey, what can I say... I'm just sticking up for the ole 5.56 NATO cartridge that has served or military quite well since, what, 196?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:14:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 8:18:19 PM EDT by Combatvet]

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
I see some posts say things like two shots to the chest, one to the head... shot placement is eveything, etc. Not dismissing that shot placement is, in fact a nice thing to do.

However, has anyone on this thread actually come up on a real bad guy, who is either: a) has the means, opportunity and ability to shoot you; b) is shooting at you; c) any combination thereof and any not mentioned? And hunting [deer, hogs, ground hogs, and so forth] don't count. Has anyone had such an encounter? Have we taken into consideration the adrenaline dump that occurs and you're lucky to hit the target? Remember, whether US Army or ARNG, our guys are just regular people, placed in unusual circumstances.

Just a thought...



Being under fire does not necessarily mean that you forgo your training. You'd be surprised how easy it is to take the time to aim at your target in an open area battlefield. In fact when you are under direct enemy fire, your most important asset is maintaining your composure, identifying your target and placing well aimed shots. I'm not saying that things don't get a little (or a lot) crazy, but that is why range time is so important.

CQC scenarios can be, but isn’t necessarily the exception when it comes to having enough time to aim dead on. But then again that is why failure drills are so important. The average sized man is a large target in house to house or room to room combat. Step away from the X-Box, and use some full size targets next time you go to the range. You'll be surprised how many shots are in the "kill zone" at 5-25 feet.

Adrenaline often slows down time to a crawl. More often than not you are so focused on what is going on that you often over exert yourself mentally in a matter of seconds/minutes. That is why after even brief firefights, fatigue can be a factor. Physical exertion is nothing compared to emotional/mental exertion
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:21:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ThreeMan:
The 5.56 was created to wound not Kill. The theory was "It takes at least two to carry a wounded person."
Therfore you tie up more enemy fighters.




Seriously?

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:30:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
I see some posts say things like two shots to the chest, one to the head... shot placement is eveything, etc. Not dismissing that shot placement is, in fact a nice thing to do.

However, has anyone on this thread actually come up on a real bad guy, who is either: a) has the means, opportunity and ability to shoot you; b) is shooting at you; c) any combination thereof and any not mentioned? And hunting [deer, hogs, ground hogs, and so forth] don't count. Has anyone had such an encounter? Have we taken into consideration the adrenaline dump that occurs and you're lucky to hit the target? Remember, whether US Army or ARNG, our guys are just regular people, placed in unusual circumstances.

Just a thought...



Chairborn Rangers!!!... Hoooa!!!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:33:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:36:04 PM EDT
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:42:30 PM EDT
Judging by the smiling devil, I'm quite certain he is not serious.

I was going to tell how deadly and quick I am at popping ground squirrels at CQB distances during an adrenaline dump, but someone said that didn't count .

Seriously through I believe most of the problems (that aren't shot placement issues ) should be attributed to M855 ammo combined with the shorter barrels. To bad They can't dig up some 193 at least.

Exellent Blog.


Originally Posted By Seydou:

Originally Posted By ThreeMan:
The 5.56 was created to wound not Kill. The theory was "It takes at least two to carry a wounded person."
Therfore you tie up more enemy fighters.




Seriously?

Seydou

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:42:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By propaneguy:
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only



Funny you ask that... Your question reminds me of a T-shirt I seen before that read 'If you absolutely have to kill every mother fucker in the room, accept no substitute"... Picture of man holding an AK-47...
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:48:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ridge:

I was going to tell how deadly and quick I am at popping ground squirrels at CQB distances during an adrenaline dump, but someone said that didn't count .



Now thats funny!!

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:31:09 PM EDT
Shot placement is critical.

When I was in the Army, I was taught by a pretty sage combat vet, that when the going gets tough, just aim for the beltline. If the opportunity presents itself again, in the center of mass, unless he's close enough to get him in the head. No matter if your shooting 7.62 or 5.56, if you shatter the pelvis, the guy isnt going to survive the encounter.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:48:23 PM EDT
I like Michael Yon's stuff. He's got a lot of heart. I wish more people were reading his dispatches, it might give them a better picture of how fine our troops are and what a great job they are doing.

But the thought that went through my mind when I read that very passage was, "One more example of the truth that all small arms can let you down." It's just the way it is. It's not the round, it's not the barrel length, it's not the shooter, and as important as shot placement is, it's not always shot placement. Small arms -- any of them -- can let you down.

In wars before anesthesia and penicillin, as many people died of infection and ineffective medical treatment as died in combat. Didn't matter where they were hit, or what they were hit with. What we would consider a superficial wound today could be mortal if it festered, as they often used to do.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:10:57 AM EDT
Look, fellas...the M4 is plenty effective...it's just that sometimes, people just don't go down unless you administer a FMJ cranial implant. People get lucky as hell from time to time, and survive something that should have killed them. As a personal example:

Once upon a time, I sustained an injury to my left side that entered just above the beltline, with the offending foreign object stopping just underneath the left collar bone. The diaphragm, stomach, spleen, large intestine, and left lung all had a couple of holes through them. The small intestine had several holes in it. The internal mammary artery had been cut. And I RAN over 100 yds immediately after this happened (fastest I'LL ever run 100 yds, you can bet your ass!) When I got to the hospital (over an hour later), it took them 3 tries to get a BP, which turned out to be 40/0.

When I left the hospital 10 days later, the guy that did the chopping on my chest told me that I should have been dead 20 minutes before I even got to the hospital.


Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:23:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MEGR:
I've seen this blog. It is good stuff. This particular situation, the enemy fighter may have been on some sort of drug. I mean, he got shot in the jimmy and kept on going! Gotta give him points on that. I'd go down quickly if that happened to me.




you'd be surprised at what an injured man can do. that shitbag got a testicle shot, there is a specialist in our company that got shot in the *ahem* taint. the fucker just kept moving and shooting until someone made him take cover and get patched up.

oh yeah, they weren't on any drugs.
i don't think anybody out there has time to take a pill to stem off pain, on the run, in a firefight and then expect it to kick in when they start wrastlin' a pissed-off sergeant major, and the CSM sure as fuck wasn't on anything. you hear about the power of adrenaline, then you experience it. coffee has nothing on that shit.

you can kill a man with a screwdriver, don't second-guess a bullet. shot placement makes a big difference.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:24:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
2 to the chest and 1 to the head



roger, failure drills will not let you down.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:30:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By propaneguy:
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only



Funny you ask that... Your question reminds me of a T-shirt I seen before that read 'If you absolutely have to kill every mother fucker in the room, accept no substitute"... Picture of man holding an AK-47...



that's funny, LTC Kurilla should be dead then... right?

quit believing t-shirts.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:03:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 5:12:49 AM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By tweeter:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By propaneguy:
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only



Funny you ask that... Your question reminds me of a T-shirt I seen before that read 'If you absolutely have to kill every mother fucker in the room, accept no substitute"... Picture of man holding an AK-47...



that's funny, LTC Kurilla should be dead then... right?

quit believing t-shirts.



No comprendo... Who said anything about "believing t-shirts"?? It was a reply stating that the question reminded me of a saying I seen on a T-shirt, It wasn't meant to be the answer to his question... Sorry if anyone interpreted it that way
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:07:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
I have zero combat experience. I have no experience shooting humans.

Let me point out that three AKM 7.62mm rounds hit the LTC. He was on the phone to his wife two hours later. The shitbag got hit in non-vital areas and was in the same hospital with the LTC. alive. Can we conclude anything from this? Yes, simply that not every individual copy of a weapon system will immediately kill every individual human.

Can we improve the leathality of 5.56mm ammunition? Yes. Do we need to? Yes. Can you kill someone with the current ammo and weapon? Yes.

G



Couldnt have been said better, with proper shot placement a .22 can kill also, how many of you would take one into combat?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:17:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By propaneguy:
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only



Id imagine in a multi threat CQB situation, spraying the threats would be more effective than having to use 3 shot bursts... Full auto SBR would be nice

Personally, I would prefer a full auto M16 SBR in a CQB that has multiple threats... I would "spray and pray", in that order
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:20:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 7:20:51 AM EDT by FUZ1ON]
I have (7) thoughts after reviewing the article and this thread...and they are...

Thought #1. Judging the terminal affectiveness of any small arms chambering/caliber (south of a .50bmg) based on "soft tissue/abdominal hits" is ludicrist.

Thought #2. If I ever get attacked by ballistic gelatin?... the rag test editors are the first ones I'll see for caliber/bullet recommendations...outside of that?...there are huge delta's in the performance of ANY caliber/bullet pending wether or not they strike bone (thereby dumping some serious ftlbs of energy and turning bone frags into projectiles creating wound channels/trauma of their own) or......just zip through soft tissue.

Thought #3. Hmmmm....the guy who invented the humanoid silohette targets knew what he was doing when he decided that the non-fatal areas of his targets should in fact score lesser points.

Thought #4. I hafta confess to being slightly amused by the anguish of some hunters who can't understand why their .300 Weatherby Mag. Stoked Up w/ Top Shelf Nosler Ballistic Tips didn't just bring down their gut shot deer for them.

Thought #5. I can't understand why poor marksmen automatically migrate towards the assumption that they would achieve an almost immediate and magical level of terminal performance if.....they only had a bigger gun.

Thought #6. There's a reason why "Sucking Chest Wounds"...well...suck.

and finally?...

Thought #7. CQ/Urban firefights are always a biotch no matter what caliber arm you're weilding and any hits anywhere on your opponent are always highly desirable...especially when you get to administer yours first...and let us not under-estimate "the element of suprise"..which in this instance was NOT in our soldiers favor...yet they still lived and ultimately prevailed.....against the odds....which wouldn't have been the case had that $hithead rag muffin been able to hit something other than arms and legs with his AK.

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:20:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThreeMan:
The 5.56 was created to wound not Kill. The theory was "It takes at least two to carry a wounded person."
Therfore you tie up more enemy fighters.



Umm, riiiight...
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:34:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
I have (7) thoughts after reviewing the article and this thread...and they are...

Thought #1. Judging the terminal affectiveness of any small arms chambering/caliber (south of a .50bmg) based on "soft tissue/abdominal hits" is ludicrist.

Thought #2. If I ever get attacked by ballistic gelatin?... the rag test editors are the first ones I'll see for caliber/bullet recommendations...outside of that?...there are huge delta's in the performance of ANY caliber/bullet pending wether or not they strike bone (thereby dumping some serious ftlbs of energy and turning bone frags into projectiles creating wound channels/trauma of their own) or......just zip through soft tissue.

Thought #3. Hmmmm....the guy who invented the humanoid silohette targets knew what he was doing when he decided that the non-fatal areas of his targets should in fact score lesser points.

Thought #4. I hafta confess to being slightly amused by the anguish of some hunters who can't understand why their .300 Weatherby Mag. Stoked Up w/ Top Shelf Nosler Ballistic Tips didn't just bring down their gut shot deer for them.

Thought #5. I can't understand why poor marksmen automatically migrate towards the assumption that they would achieve an almost immediate and magical level of terminal performance if.....they only had a bigger gun.

Thought #6. There's a reason why "Sucking Chest Wounds"...well...suck.

and finally?...

Thought #7. CQ/Urban firefights are always a biotch no matter what caliber arm you're weilding and any hits anywhere on your opponent are always highly desirable...especially when you get to administer yours first...and let us not under-estimate "the element of suprise"..which in this instance was NOT in our soldiers favor...yet they still lived and ultimately prevailed.....against the odds....which wouldn't have been the case had that $hithead rag muffin been able to hit something other than arms and legs with his AK.

L8R, Bill.



Thought #4... You can place your shot right through the chest, lungs and heart of a Whitetail and it will still run like a raped ape through the brush and over just about any obstacle before the wounds become superficial... A head or neck/spinal shot is the ONLY way to drop them on the spot
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:51:09 AM EDT
Just wanted to add: A coupla years ago, I drove up on a shooting in progress. I'm cruising around a corner...in the middle of the road is this male and female. As the headlights from my patrol car hit her...she holds up a small semi-auto pistol and at a range of about 1 1/2 feet, pops the male in the right side of the head, three times....a few seconds later, after all the yelling and adrenaline and handcuffs flying, etc....I call for an ambulance, which arrives in about 2 minutes. They get there...start checking the guy out..and he stands up...shrugs them off and walks to the ambulance...about 20 feet...sits down inside on the gurney and tells them...lets go...I'm dying here...End of the day...with the female temporarily in jail, the docs at the trauma center say...the bullets just didn't hit anything vital. He'll live...BTW...after further investigation...she gets released...he gets charged with aggravated assault. Thirty seconds before I drove up..he had been beating her with a steel lawnchair...self-defense shooting...I favor good shot placement..she had it...wasn't fatal. Oh, it was a .380 cheapo Lorcin pistol that she had pulled out of his waistband while he was beating her.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:52:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
I have (7) thoughts after reviewing the article and this thread...and they are...

Thought #1. Judging the terminal affectiveness of any small arms chambering/caliber (south of a .50bmg) based on "soft tissue/abdominal hits" is ludicrist.

Thought #2. If I ever get attacked by ballistic gelatin?... the rag test editors are the first ones I'll see for caliber/bullet recommendations...outside of that?...there are huge delta's in the performance of ANY caliber/bullet pending wether or not they strike bone (thereby dumping some serious ftlbs of energy and turning bone frags into projectiles creating wound channels/trauma of their own) or......just zip through soft tissue.

Thought #3. Hmmmm....the guy who invented the humanoid silohette targets knew what he was doing when he decided that the non-fatal areas of his targets should in fact score lesser points.

Thought #4. I hafta confess to being slightly amused by the anguish of some hunters who can't understand why their .300 Weatherby Mag. Stoked Up w/ Top Shelf Nosler Ballistic Tips didn't just bring down their gut shot deer for them.

Thought #5. I can't understand why poor marksmen automatically migrate towards the assumption that they would achieve an almost immediate and magical level of terminal performance if.....they only had a bigger gun.

Thought #6. There's a reason why "Sucking Chest Wounds"...well...suck.

and finally?...

Thought #7. CQ/Urban firefights are always a biotch no matter what caliber arm you're weilding and any hits anywhere on your opponent are always highly desirable...especially when you get to administer yours first...and let us not under-estimate "the element of suprise"..which in this instance was NOT in our soldiers favor...yet they still lived and ultimately prevailed.....against the odds....which wouldn't have been the case had that $hithead rag muffin been able to hit something other than arms and legs with his AK.

L8R, Bill.



Thought #4... You can place your shot right through the chest, lungs and heart of a Whitetail and it will still run like a raped ape through the brush and over just about any obstacle before the wounds become superficial... A head or neck/spinal shot is the ONLY way to drop them on the spot



BTDT...shot a georgous 8pt at about 110yds standing still broadside....picture perfect shot with my 06..."JUST" behind the shoulder and right through the heart...and almost lost it...ran about 1/4 mile cross a clearing and down into a bottom...almost a zero bloodtrail...took 5 of us and 4 hours to locate...bullet hole was no bigger going out thatn it was coming in and both sides could've been plugged with a cigarette butt..."The Bullet Never Struck Bone"....(what the local hillbillys call...."Slip-Shot")....however...the neck/spinal is NOT the only way...there's one other...which I've employed with great success...which is...DO NOT aim for the traditional "just behind the shoulder"....NAIL THAT FREAKING SHOULDER!!!....and make certain that bullet hits at least "Clavical" if not "BONE"...might not turn his lights out like a swith but damn sure "Anchors"'em.

btw....I also known of many hunters who attempted neck/spine shots...add in the infamous "White-Tail Flinch Factor" and....some get lucky and some don't...to risky of a shot for me...especially when I accidently forget to bring along my x-ray vision.

L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:55:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shortarm53:
Just wanted to add: A coupla years ago, I drove up on a shooting in progress. I'm cruising around a corner...in the middle of the road is this male and female. As the headlights from my patrol car hit her...she holds up a small semi-auto pistol and at a range of about 1 1/2 feet, pops the male in the right side of the head, three times....a few seconds later, after all the yelling and adrenaline and handcuffs flying, etc....I call for an ambulance, which arrives in about 2 minutes. They get there...start checking the guy out..and he stands up...shrugs them off and walks to the ambulance...about 20 feet...sits down inside on the gurney and tells them...lets go...I'm dying here...End of the day...with the female temporarily in jail, the docs at the trauma center say...the bullets just didn't hit anything vital. He'll live...BTW...after further investigation...she gets released...he gets charged with aggravated assault. Thirty seconds before I drove up..he had been beating her with a steel lawnchair...self-defense shooting...I favor good shot placement..she had it...wasn't fatal. Oh, it was a .380 cheapo Lorcin pistol that she had pulled out of his waistband while he was beating her.




come on now a pellet gun is more sufficiant than a .380
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
I have (7) thoughts after reviewing the article and this thread...and they are...

Thought #1. Judging the terminal affectiveness of any small arms chambering/caliber (south of a .50bmg) based on "soft tissue/abdominal hits" is ludicrist.

Thought #2. If I ever get attacked by ballistic gelatin?... the rag test editors are the first ones I'll see for caliber/bullet recommendations...outside of that?...there are huge delta's in the performance of ANY caliber/bullet pending wether or not they strike bone (thereby dumping some serious ftlbs of energy and turning bone frags into projectiles creating wound channels/trauma of their own) or......just zip through soft tissue.

Thought #3. Hmmmm....the guy who invented the humanoid silohette targets knew what he was doing when he decided that the non-fatal areas of his targets should in fact score lesser points.

Thought #4. I hafta confess to being slightly amused by the anguish of some hunters who can't understand why their .300 Weatherby Mag. Stoked Up w/ Top Shelf Nosler Ballistic Tips didn't just bring down their gut shot deer for them.

Thought #5. I can't understand why poor marksmen automatically migrate towards the assumption that they would achieve an almost immediate and magical level of terminal performance if.....they only had a bigger gun.

Thought #6. There's a reason why "Sucking Chest Wounds"...well...suck.

and finally?...

Thought #7. CQ/Urban firefights are always a biotch no matter what caliber arm you're weilding and any hits anywhere on your opponent are always highly desirable...especially when you get to administer yours first...and let us not under-estimate "the element of suprise"..which in this instance was NOT in our soldiers favor...yet they still lived and ultimately prevailed.....against the odds....which wouldn't have been the case had that $hithead rag muffin been able to hit something other than arms and legs with his AK.

L8R, Bill.



Thought #4... You can place your shot right through the chest, lungs and heart of a Whitetail and it will still run like a raped ape through the brush and over just about any obstacle before the wounds become superficial... A head or neck/spinal shot is the ONLY way to drop them on the spot



BTDT...shot a georgous 8pt at about 110yds standing still broadside....picture perfect shot with my 06..."JUST" behind the shoulder and right through the heart...and almost lost it...ran about 1/4 mile cross a clearing and down into a bottom...almost a zero bloodtrail...took 5 of us and 4 hours to locate...bullet hole was no bigger going out thatn it was coming in and both sides could've been plugged with a cigarette butt..."The Bullet Never Struck Bone"....(what the local hillbillys call...."Slip-Shot")....however...the neck/spinal is NOT the only way...there's one other...which I've employed with great success...which is...DO NOT aim for the traditional "just behind the shoulder"....NAIL THAT FREAKING SHOULDER!!!....and make certain that bullet hits at least "Clavical" if not "BONE"...might not turn his lights out like a swith but damn sure "Anchors"'em.

btw....I also known of many hunters who attempted neck/spine shots...add in the infamous "White-Tail Flinch Factor" and....some get lucky and some don't...to risky of a shot for me...especially when I accidently forget to bring along my x-ray vision.

L8R, Bill.



Your right about the shoulder shot, it does slow them down fast, but, everytime I do that my butcher complains that I fucked up all the good meat
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:21:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
I have (7) thoughts after reviewing the article and this thread...and they are...

Thought #1. Judging the terminal affectiveness of any small arms chambering/caliber (south of a .50bmg) based on "soft tissue/abdominal hits" is ludicrist.

Thought #2. If I ever get attacked by ballistic gelatin?... the rag test editors are the first ones I'll see for caliber/bullet recommendations...outside of that?...there are huge delta's in the performance of ANY caliber/bullet pending wether or not they strike bone (thereby dumping some serious ftlbs of energy and turning bone frags into projectiles creating wound channels/trauma of their own) or......just zip through soft tissue.

Thought #3. Hmmmm....the guy who invented the humanoid silohette targets knew what he was doing when he decided that the non-fatal areas of his targets should in fact score lesser points.

Thought #4. I hafta confess to being slightly amused by the anguish of some hunters who can't understand why their .300 Weatherby Mag. Stoked Up w/ Top Shelf Nosler Ballistic Tips didn't just bring down their gut shot deer for them.

Thought #5. I can't understand why poor marksmen automatically migrate towards the assumption that they would achieve an almost immediate and magical level of terminal performance if.....they only had a bigger gun.

Thought #6. There's a reason why "Sucking Chest Wounds"...well...suck.

and finally?...

Thought #7. CQ/Urban firefights are always a biotch no matter what caliber arm you're weilding and any hits anywhere on your opponent are always highly desirable...especially when you get to administer yours first...and let us not under-estimate "the element of suprise"..which in this instance was NOT in our soldiers favor...yet they still lived and ultimately prevailed.....against the odds....which wouldn't have been the case had that $hithead rag muffin been able to hit something other than arms and legs with his AK.

L8R, Bill.



Thought #4... You can place your shot right through the chest, lungs and heart of a Whitetail and it will still run like a raped ape through the brush and over just about any obstacle before the wounds become superficial... A head or neck/spinal shot is the ONLY way to drop them on the spot



BTDT...shot a georgous 8pt at about 110yds standing still broadside....picture perfect shot with my 06..."JUST" behind the shoulder and right through the heart...and almost lost it...ran about 1/4 mile cross a clearing and down into a bottom...almost a zero bloodtrail...took 5 of us and 4 hours to locate...bullet hole was no bigger going out thatn it was coming in and both sides could've been plugged with a cigarette butt..."The Bullet Never Struck Bone"....(what the local hillbillys call...."Slip-Shot")....however...the neck/spinal is NOT the only way...there's one other...which I've employed with great success...which is...DO NOT aim for the traditional "just behind the shoulder"....NAIL THAT FREAKING SHOULDER!!!....and make certain that bullet hits at least "Clavical" if not "BONE"...might not turn his lights out like a swith but damn sure "Anchors"'em.

btw....I also known of many hunters who attempted neck/spine shots...add in the infamous "White-Tail Flinch Factor" and....some get lucky and some don't...to risky of a shot for me...especially when I accidently forget to bring along my x-ray vision.

L8R, Bill.



Your right about the shoulder shot, it does slow them down fast, but, everytime I do that my butcher complains that I fucked up all the good meat



My thoughts again? LOL!!!

Thought #1. If "Your Butcher" thinks that one shoulder is "all the good meat"?...I'd find another butcher.

Thought #2. I am my butcher...and my butcher doesn't mind a bit if one shoulder get's tossed in the gut bucket...coyotes gotta eat too...but what my butcher does mind is....if I try for a spine shot and wind up turning both backstraps into rasberry jello...or worse yet...lose the whole damn deer to a risky shot.

Thought #3. If deer had guns we'd all be dead.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:42:37 AM EDT
I recently read an account written by a very well respected person in the industry who shot a VC 14 times with an M14 and he still didnt go down. Caliber is only part of the science of killing
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:56:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 9:03:28 AM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By General_Tso:
Cool blog, but it is a limited sample.



Yon has a big bug up his ass regarding the 5.56. He's not a fan.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:00:02 AM EDT
Been there, the M-4 is very effective, the 120mm on an Abrams is more effective. or hell even the M240 was pretty good at getting the point accross.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:28:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By tweeter:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By propaneguy:
CQB is the 3 shot burst an advantage or not compared to AK on auto, CQB only



Funny you ask that... Your question reminds me of a T-shirt I seen before that read 'If you absolutely have to kill every mother fucker in the room, accept no substitute"... Picture of man holding an AK-47...



that's funny, LTC Kurilla should be dead then... right?

quit believing t-shirts.



No comprendo... Who said anything about "believing t-shirts"?? It was a reply stating that the question reminded me of a saying I seen on a T-shirt, It wasn't meant to be the answer to his question... Sorry if anyone interpreted it that wayhr


Not that it matters, but that's a Samuel L. Jackson quote from Jackie Brown. Don't believe it was meant to portray reality, just meant to be funny. I'm with ya, Den.
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