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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/2/2004 5:07:18 PM EST
OK, I know some of the experts here will know better than I if a point I was trying to argue on a range today was legit or not (It "Seems" like a no-brainer to me but who knows...?)

Our battalion went to annual weapons qual' today (M-16's and M-9's). I was a safety on the '16 range and a situation came up that put me on one side of an argument and the "Self-Declared" "Weapons expert" from our HHC company on the other.

Here's the deal.

Some NG units have M-16's and M-4's with removeable carrying handles (My Batt' is ALL 'Flat-top). The racks that the Army stores their M-16's in though WON'T accept the CH to be all the way forward (CH flush with the front of the upper reciever base) unless a modification is made to the rack (Something my Batt' seems to have a problem getting around to).

What our armorers do when recieving weapons back into the arms room is to have the guys back their CH's down at least one notch so that the arms on the rack can be closed and locked. If you leave them flush the arms on the rack will NOT close. The problem is though that, when the weapons get issued for Qual' alot of guys forget to re-set their CH's foreward again. I told all my guys to make sure the CH's were in the correct position before zeroing and they were on and off the range with only a couple of bolo's that needed to shoot twice.

Our HHC guys were having a HELL of a time zeroing (AND Qualifying) and at some point I noticed that almost ALL of their CH's were one or two steps back on the rail. I mentioned that I "Thought" a large part of the problem was that by being in the wrong position (The CH's) the geometry of the site system was being screwed-up (Some of these folks had their front sights BURIED and were STILL shooting low) and that they might want to re-set their ch's and see want a mechanical zero did for them.

Anyway, THAT suggestion got the HHC armorer ALL bent out of shape as he'd told his commander (Who saw me advising my guys) that "It didn't really matter". The HHC commander asked me what I thought and, seein' as I didn't want to spend all day on the range in a pissing match with an E-4 and an O-3 (With ME as the pivot man lol) I just said "Sir, I'll keep my advice to my own troops. I think this is going to drag things out for us a bit but I don't want to cause trouble for specialist XXXX so I'll shut-up now " lol

Anyway, what Y'all think? Carry-handle in the wrong position no big deal or recipe for frustration?
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 5:41:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 5:45:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
If course it matters. They will shoot low with the CH back a notch or two.

If you assume that the boreline is level, the plane of the sights angles down as you move to the front, because the rear sight is higher than the front sight. If you move the rear sight back, it must also be elevated in order to keep the rear aperture in the same sight plane. Failure to raise the rear sight will result in the rifle shooting low. Simple geometry.

-Troy



I love you man
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 5:59:07 PM EST
I'll take a stab at this as I have seen this issue with the M-4's and M16 Rifle racks. In my old unit we had the same problem and we had to move the CH's a step or two to accomodate the racks. but we left the CH's in that spot. we zeroed and fired and I saw no problem's with anyone in my company. Now here is where I'm gonna just tell ya my opinion based on 21 Years.

I have ran M16 ranges and the normal rule of thumb is most of the HHC pogues take forever to Zero cause they can't remember how. They apply poor technique as to the basic marksmenship principles of Sight Picture, trigger squeeze, etc. I also never saw an Armorer that ever knew ANYTHING about weapons or had any opinion I ever wanted to hear about weapons. They throw a E-1 or E-2 to a 2 week school and this guy comes out actually knowing anything??? NOT.

if the CH's were in the same location on the rail when their were mechanically zeroed and never moved thru the process of zeroing at 25M , there should not be a problem. If you have people burying the front sight post during zeroing. you have other issues at play. Just My $.02 Ok all you Ex Armorer's....flame away
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:13:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 6:19:09 PM EST by Treadhead]

Originally Posted By Harv24:
I'll take a stab at this as I have seen this issue with the M-4's and M16 Rifle racks. In my old unit we had the same problem and we had to move the CH's a step or two to accomodate the racks. but we left the CH's in that spot. we zeroed and fired and I saw no problem's with anyone in my company. Now here is where I'm gonna just tell ya my opinion based on 21 Years.

I have ran M16 ranges and the normal rule of thumb is most of the HHC pogues take forever to Zero cause they can't remember how. They apply poor technique as to the basic marksmenship principles of Sight Picture, trigger squeeze, etc. I also never saw an Armorer that ever knew ANYTHING about weapons or had any opinion I ever wanted to hear about weapons. They throw a E-1 or E-2 to a 2 week school and this guy comes out actually knowing anything??? NOT.

if the CH's were in the same location on the rail when their were mechanically zeroed and never moved thru the process of zeroing at 25M , there should not be a problem. If you have people burying the front sight post during zeroing. you have other issues at play. Just My $.02 Ok all you Ex Armorer's....flame away





I was wondering the same thing. I'm not going to badmouth HHC units ('cuase there's too damn many of them guys around here lol!) and their marksmanship but we went through this SAME trouble last year when we were activated and I just thought I'd see what everyone thought

I wonder too about some folks concept of a "sight-picture" because I see alot of folks with their rear sights cranked all the way over to the left or the right and I rarely need to move (With ANY rack weapon) more than two or three clicks in either direction to Q.

I started doin' this stuff for the Army back in '81 and if you've been around for 21 yrs I'm sure you've seen as many non-gun folks who try and re-learn this all in a couple of days each year as I have.lol
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