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Posted: 11/29/2002 11:54:22 AM EST
I have a theory about varmint barrel AR's.

I'm interested in seeing how many people have a varmint barrels made by Wilson, lothar, whatever Model 1, Sherluk, M&A that shoot consistent under 1moa vs over 1moa.

Then also the Kreiger and Shilen group in another list. Also I'm interested in the 20" guns and what barrels they have in them and how they do. My theory is that Model 1 type varmint barrels are 50% moa or below and 50% above. This may explain why some are happy with and others are not. Like flip a coin. This one shoots that one doesn't. Most of the ones that don't shoot probably wouldn't be listed here anyway, because the owners just keep them around for plinking and don't shoot for accuracy.

OK how many of you have model 1, sherluck, M&A, Wilson or Lothar varmint barrels or barrelled uppers? How do they shoot!!!!

Link Posted: 11/30/2002 10:54:00 AM EST
[b]WHAT? No one what's to own up to having one of these uppers or barrels?[/b]
I must have one of the most unique rifles around!!![devil]
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 9:53:45 AM EST
I just got a Model 1 20" , 1in9 twist, floated, extra heavy bbl.($345 + ship) I have not finished the rifle yet and fired it. It's getting a DPMS black teflon stainless lower, w/ a Jard adj. trigger (1lb. pull) so we'll see what kind of groups I get next week when I receive the lower, etc. The upper itself looks top notch, but the proof is in the groups. I've used other Model 1 kits, and have no complaints. So I'll let you know what happens. I've treated the unfired bbl. w/ Brownell's "Moly Bore Treatment Paste" to "seal" it, and will use moly coated bullets, so it should be quite acceptable.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 10:51:55 AM EST
I've got an upper I built myself for varminting. I used an ASA flat top upper with a DPMS 20" free floated bull barrel. For optics I use a Leupold Vari-X II 6.5-20, and I typically get 1/4 MOA (up to 3/8-1/2 MOA on a warm day or if I shoot too fast).

The only thing I would change about that is to use an upper that matched up better to my lower (which is a BM), but that is purely cosmetic.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 12:44:04 PM EST
What kind of groups have you been getting out of your other model 1 barrels?

I have 1 under MOA response U look like number 2 and maybe 3. That's a start.

Thanks guys! With you two that puts it at:
Over MOA = 2
Under MOA = 3
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 12:53:43 PM EST
[b]I better classify what my testing criteria is.[/b]
1.I'd like to know 5 shot groups.
2.Counting any "flyers" and all shots.
3.Hopefully at least 3 to 5 - Five shot groups shot consecutively.
4.from at least 100 yards (hopefully using a rest or bipod with little chance of too much human error)

Like MP5_guy stated in his post. He gets a range usually 1/4 but up to 1/2 @ 100. Thats a SUB MOA gun in my book!

Keep on shooting those tight groups guys![bounce]Keep me posted on your new barrel after break in!
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 1:05:57 PM EST
Ask patriot40 about his shooting buddy's AR15 Ultramag and exploding HK's.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 2:09:41 PM EST
Email the company. Ask WHAT TYPE OF RIFLING the barrel has. Button-cut or broach-cut.

Look at the Olympic Arms website regarding their K6 Ultramatch uppers. READ in their catalog about the QC that goes into them. READ their guarantee.

All other kits are just kits, built with Wilson, Harris, or some other Bull barrel. Yes, you'll get accuracy, but even THIS RRA lover will have this upper when I build my varminter!

Link Posted: 12/1/2002 8:15:38 PM EST
ok patriot40,
What about your buddies AR and the EXPLODING HK?????
I've always avoided Olympic Arms. Guess I've had my eyes closed. Think I'll check there website now.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 9:26:50 PM EST
ok patriot40,
What about your buddies AR and the EXPLODING HK?????
I've always avoided Olympic Arms. Guess I've had my eyes closed. Think I'll check there website now.
View Quote

Oly's SUM stainless steel broach cut barrels are some of the best around.  Do a search for "SUM" on this board and you will be surprised who agrees! :-)
Link Posted: 12/10/2002 3:53:04 PM EST
ok patriot40,
What about your buddies AR and the EXPLODING HK?????
I've always avoided Olympic Arms. Guess I've had my eyes closed. Think I'll check there website now.
View Quote

O.K.! Been out of town for few days, first things first, I shot the Model 1 20" upper today, zeroed the scope @25yds. (military standard) once zeroed, 1 hole about a 1/2" diameter. Not bad. as for the "COVETED AR ULTRAMAG", A dufus at our local range saw my buddy's AR laying on the bench and asked what is was, so my bud , having just finished shooting his .338 ultramag, held up a round (.338 ultra) and promptly, without flinching, said "That ther's an AR ULTRAMAG" I nearly bit through my lip trying not to laugh my ass off!
As for the exploding HK, a .45 Tactical, well, let's just say check the crimp on your handloads. Watching that beautiful pistol somersalt through the air, landing on the sand, smoking, magazine blown apart, slide barely held in by the slide lock, and frame split down the side. luckily, no injuries other than small shrapnel wound to the arm. And of course that surprised look on my bud's face. Live and learn! (Right, Bud?)
Link Posted: 12/10/2002 9:57:56 PM EST
OUCH! Kinda hurts the pride huh![bounce]

Anyway I haven't been to the range in a week or so. So my last groups are around 1.1" @100

I also got my RRA NM trigger assembly and it wouldn't work in the lower that I was working on. A CMT. The pin holes must be too close. I promptly put it in my Eagle Arms and it pulls sweet! [devil]

As for American Spirit Arms... They screwed up my order.  The guy that took the order and answered the complain call didn't seem to helpful.  I liked the lady that normally answers the phone. I don't think she would have taken it so lightly. Anyway has anyone else had problems with ASA? I'm going to call tomorrow and try to straighten out my order.[argue]
Link Posted: 12/10/2002 11:44:40 PM EST
ASA is ass!
Do a search for ASA using the search button on the board.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 4:27:48 PM EST
i have a sherluk/wilson 24 inch heavy varmint barrel, fluted, it groups a whopping 3-4 inches at 100 yards from a res with fed gold medal match, i am soooooo pleased that it shoots as good as my slug gun, P.O.S.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 4:29:09 PM EST
my rock river dcm rig has a wilson barrel, and does less than half an inch at 100 with fed gold medal match, hmmm
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 4:01:16 PM EST
I was pretty pissed off when I first shot this "barrell" with 68's.  But I got happier with the CXP1's, which went under 1 MOA.  It was kind of gusty.  I am thinking I should have got a Lothar, Krieger or McMillan...

RRA Lower, RRA/Wilson Arms 18" Varmint, TA31 in 5-20 MPH gusting 70 degree angle wind:

-1.6" mean 3 shot groups with 68gr. BTHP Black Hills Match

-1.1" mean 3 shot X 3 groups with 55gr. FMJ UMC

-0.8" mean 3 shot X 3 groups with 50gr. Winchester CXP1.

Will be trying all Black Hills 40 match, 55 FMJ, 75 Hornady Match, 50 Match, 69 GM Match next week.  Will report.  Hellfinger out.
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 7:09:00 PM EST
Do the groups widen out if they go to 5 shots?
I'm usually getting 3 shots around .5" @100 then the other 2 are somewhere around 1.1". They are not the last two either. They can be any number in my 5 shot group.  That means it could be any shot on a ground hog also! [bounce]

How many rounds do you have thru the barrel so far?
Did you do any type of breakin? Mine seems to be getting tighter the more I shoot it, but I had a Heavy Barrel FAL from DSA(Dip S%$T Arms) that shot like a shot gun. usually around 5-6 inches @100. They said it was my fault I didn't break it in right! What ever! All my other rifles shot just fine. All but the AR15T Varment thing I'm working on now. Not sure whether it's really a barrel or a boat anchor!  It has started to redeem itself lately. It has been consistent around 1.1" or under so the verdict is still out. I'm going to try the 55gr Sierra BTHP Game kings next seated to about .02 off the grooves and also the 75gr Hornady moly at about the same. I don't have any more data until I reload some more, I'm outta ammo!  Well at least ammo I use to test with. [grenade]
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 7:15:42 PM EST
Ok stat wise it looks like:

Aftermarket barrels in 24"
Over MOA = 3
Under MOA = 3
undecided = 2

Aftermarket 20" barrels
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
shooters that don't wanna talk about it = 2105
Manufacturer barrels and custom barrels like Kreiger in 24" abstaining!!![devil]
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 8:48:22 PM EST
[size=5]is it just me or does the 20" service rifle out shoot the varmint 24" rifles?[/size=5][peep]
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 10:33:56 PM EST
[size=5]is it just me or does the 20" service rifle out shoot the varmint 24" rifles?[/size=5][peep]
View Quote

No, not if the barrel is made correctly.

What it boils down to is the how the rifling is made, the chamber is cut, and the distance of throat.

The 24" barrel will allow the same powder charge in the ammo to be faster in the longer barrel, but the longer barrel will have more whip.  If the ammo is tuned to the longer barrel(harmonics), then the bullet will have more speed down range, and less likely to be danced by the wind due to getting to the target faster.

The point that you are seeing is that barrels like the SUM and Krieger(match) barrels are cut rifling, with a tighter chamber and throat, and likely fitted to a specific bolt.

As for sharpshooters question, it depends on who cut the chambers, and the type of production of the barrel.  Myself, I have sold all the bull barrels that I ever owned for the AR rifles. They make the front of the rifle too heavy to off hand shot. They were replaced with Match barrel that I can come off the bipod and chase something down if needed.  The draw back to this is that the barrels are thinner and will heat up faster.

Link Posted: 12/14/2002 10:53:46 PM EST
I have a RRA (Wilson) 20" varmint bull, 1/8 twist.

I shoot BH52, BH68, and Winchester 45gr varmint.

I typically get right at 1MOA for 5 shot groups.  Sometimes, as much as 1.5"  Sometimes, .6"

Have made a few one hole 3 shot groups, but rare.

I am going to try BH with SMK69's and SMK77's soon.  I think I can find something that will get me reliable sub-MOA.

So for now, with the factory ammo I have tried, I'd put this rifle right on the fence.  With a handload worked up and tested for this rifle, I have no doubt it will print sub-MOA all day.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:51:50 PM EST
Whip of the barrel. Hmm that's something new for me to ponder. Since the barrels are longer and the chamber and throat are not like custom barrels, maybe they are more bullet and load sensitive? I'll have to ponder that one. harmonics vs length I can see some logic behind this, but also what if the barrel is thicker. This would produce less vibration variance also.
Anyway here's the stats now:

Aftermarket barrels in 24"
Over MOA = 3
Under MOA = 3
undecided = 2

Aftermarket 20" barrels
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
Borderline = 1

Bushmaster n other manufacturer 24"
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
shooters that don't wanna talk about it = 2102

Link Posted: 12/15/2002 4:58:27 PM EST
i have about 300+ rounds fired so far, i just sent it back again, we will see what happened, i broke it in right, shoot/clean, shoot a few more/clean, you get it, long process, but it does not seem to be worth it with this rig, i have a couple hundred spent in match ammo already, and cannot hit a pop can reliably at 100 yards with a scope, and match ammo....
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 7:59:20 PM EST
ok avengeusa, I give up. You got me beat. At least my varmint will shoot "around" MOA. If they don't get it shooting better trade it for a good turkey shoot shotgun or an AK. I hear they group better than that! I think they should just trade you out uppers or barrels and start again. Ask and see what they say. I don't think they would like having there name pasted around this page like ASA![50]
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 8:15:57 PM EST
DAMN!  You wasted 300 rounds of match ammo through that thing shooting 3MOA?

I would have sent it back quicklike.  

I cant wait till my BH SMK 69's and 77's get here.  Looking forward to trying that.

I just cannot stomach Fed GMM, at $.70 per shot.  How do you guys afford to shoot???  

I think I need to learn how to reload.  What can you get a match grade reload down to, per shot, using quality powder, primers, and SMK's, assuming you have good brass?
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 8:25:37 PM EST
.14 to .20 for good reloads with your own brass. [size=4][b]BUT you won't spend less you'll just shoot more!!![/size=4][/b][50]
I still spend the same just get more to shoot for my money!!!![sniper]
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 8:35:13 PM EST
Well, I guess that will pay for the loading equipment pretty quickly.  Hmmmmm....
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:34:43 AM EST
this is the second time i have returned the upper, still waiting, but i picked up a varminter while i was waiting, it seems as if it will be really accurate
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:37:26 AM EST
called about the upper, they said they were working on it, but did not know anything...., but i must admit, it is extremely aggrivating that i bought a varmint upper that does 3 inch groups, but the lady on the phone does seem to be pretty nice to deal with
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 5:57:34 PM EST
If it's thru Sherluk they are family owned and usually good to work with. Ask if you can just swap it out. If it's a boat anchor it's a boat anchor! They'll probably strap it to a lower and try it themselves. [sniper]
What was the other Varminter you where talking about? I haven't gotten anymore ammo reloaded, but I'm pondering going out tomorrow and using what I got left. Just cause it's warm. [50]
Keep me posted on project "SHOTGUN"
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:19:37 PM EST
the other varminter is the bushmonster one with the fluted barrel
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 7:25:30 PM EST
bet'ch the Bushmuncher shoots better than MOA![bounce]
Went to the range today. Didn't get there until dark. Took the kids with. They hit 2.5" balloons @ 100 on there 1st shots. With my AR15T! [50]
I didn't get to shoot but 2 groups @ 100 in the dark. Targets where dark and reticle wasn't real clear. Shot 1.25" and 1.0" First was with 69gr SMK. The second was with Combined Technology (AKA Nosler n Winchester) 55gr BTST
I'm wondering now how it would have shot with good lighting. Probably the same, but it makes for a good excuse. The second group showed some promise. Well I hope so. Maybe it will work down under MOA yet.
I think you'll be alot happier with the Bushwacker varminter. Good luck n let me know for the stats! [sniper]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 10:18:32 PM EST
[b][size=3]Guess there's only about 6 people that shoot 5 shot groups on this board. [/b][/size=3][peep][sniper]
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 11:26:35 AM EST
talked to sherluk today, they are sending me a whole new upper, they checked out the old one, and said it did fine, but that they only had a 50 yard range available, will have it before the christ mas vacation is over, and will give a report
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 1:23:33 PM EST

Since I don't believe that the chamber was cut for a given factory bullet, you will need to play with some different loads to find the sweet spot.  

Hopefully, the throat is not cut too deep and you can work a seating depth to get the bullet close to the lands, and still fit into the mag.

The second thing to remember is you trying to get a load the will have minimal deviation from shot to shot.
Start the load off low and work it up ever so slowly. On barrel whip, if you can find the load that will exit the barrel during the barrel high/low end whip, the duration/stall will be much stable than exiting during middle of whip.  The high/low end whip will allow a longer fixed point of exit direction, than the middle of movement cycle, where the barrel is still in travel and the deviation of bullet speed will cause different exit positions in the barrel movement path.

And to answer you question on barrel length and harmonics, the shorter barrel will have less whip, but you give up speed.  A fatter barrel will have less whip, but weight becomes a issue.

P.S. Make sure that the upper and lower are solid/tight.  Any extra movement between the the two will translate to added movement of the barrel, and may cause more (uncontrolled)harmonics then is all ready at hand.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 2:23:05 PM EST
i had a 20" kreiger bull barrel on a dpms lo-pro. with bullets it liked, consistantly put 5 shots in less than 1/2" at 100yds.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 8:54:17 AM EST
I have my brothers brand new Les Baer AR-223 w/Nightforce scope in my gun room right now. He has only fired five rounds so far.  Before Christmas week is over I will be able to post some sight-in results as compared to a new Bushmaster V-Match 20" w/JP trigger and Leupold CQ/T 3X scope and an older Bushmaster/Colt AR-15 w/iron sights as a proof gun.

We have 1/ dozen factory loads and reloads I use in bolt action varmint guns to test with.  We will be firing from solid benchesand sand bags. I will have a cleaning kit on hand to break in the Les Baer barrel.

One thing for sure that Les Baer has a fine trigger!
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 7:32:54 PM EST
barrel breakins hug! Better have someone to talk 2 while your doing all that cleaning.

We go a new addition on the stats. A Kreiger shooter stepped up to bat!!! That's

Kreiger barrels:
sub MOA = 1 (brave soul making a post!)
over MOA = 0 (dought there will B anyone in this group)

Aftermarket barrels in 24"
Over MOA = 3
Under MOA = 3
undecided = 2

Aftermarket 20" barrels
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
Borderline = 1

Bushmaster n other manufacturer 24"
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
shooters that don't wanna talk about it = 2101
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 5:52:53 PM EST
Sharpshooter, I shot a bunch of different Black Hills blue this past week.  The rifle is an 18" RRA/Wilson varmint with TA31, tactical Ergo Grip and Harris bipod.  All groups were 100 yds from a bench in calm conditions.  I had trouble concentrating because the slackjaw on my left was spraying me with hot brass from his AR of questionable legality.

68gr was pretty bad, averaging 1.8" 5-shot groups.  5 groups.

69gr BTHP match was good, averaging 1.0" 5-shot groups.  5 groups.

55gr FMJ was worst at over 2".  Didn't bother measuring it.

52gr shot 1.1" 5-shot groups.  Only 2 groups.

50gr was better, averaging 0.8" 5-shot groups.  Best target was 0.5", worst was 1.0".  Shot 3 groups.

75gr was best, averaging 1.0" 5-shot groups.  Shot 2 groups.  Take out one flyer on each group and the average went down to 0.6".

I fed the XY coordinates of each shot into my laptop to calculate the center of the groups and the average distances from centers.  The 75gr came in a 0.32", which was best.  The 50gr V-Max was next at 0.34".  I will try 73gr bergers next week.  The guy at GPSS says they do pretty well in a 1-in-8.  Will report.  Hellfinger out.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 8:17:11 PM EST
The AR15 is an amazingly accurate platform. My DCM upper (built by CLE with a Douglas barrel) will do 1 inch at 200 yards with 68 gr Hornady handloads, shot from a benchrest with a scope instead of iron sights. I shot an ASA upper with a 22 inch Harris bull barrel 1 in 8 twist in an F class match over the weekend. Never shot this upper in competition before, and just used my regular service rifle loads, 69 Hornadys for short range and 75 gr Amax for long range. I started at 300 yards with a 98/100 and 6 X's, and this is not the regular 300 yard target, it is much smaller. The X ring is about 2 inches instead of 3 inches. It also shot extremely well at 500, 600, 800 and 1000 yards, I ended up with an almost high master score, and I'm a total novice to F class and 1000 yard shooting. I was amazed at how well this AR15 shot, even at 1000 yards and winds gusting to 18 miles per hour I still managed a 92/100. I trounced the guys shooting 308's, one a Remington PSS with a $700 scope, and the other guy had an expensive Palma rifle. The scope I used was a $120 Weaver V9, but it had more than 30 minutes of elevation adjustment and tracked like a champ. Don't tell me AR15's cannot shoot or all American Spirit Arms uppers are crap. The one time I tested this rifle at 200 yards with reject 75 gr A-Max ammo (tips bent during competition shooting slamming them into the DCM rifle), I managed to get very nice 1.5 inch groups. The 22 Harris barrel wil also shoot my 75 Gr A-Max competition loads at about 3040 feet/sec compared to about 2875 out of my 20 inch DCM upper. That is probably why it managed to shoot well at 1000 yards. I seriously doubt that I would want to shoot that distance with a 223 serviced rifle.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:13:28 AM EST
i got the new upper from sherluk right before christmas, it was a different unit, i marked the old one, and it shoots just as bad, 3-4 inches at 100, i tried the same scope, and a bunch of rejected various grain, and powder charges(mixed)in my m4, and it did 2 inches total, i had a whole 30 rd mag, some 68-69 grain hornady, and sierra ammo, some 62 grain ap ammo, some 75 hornady(which should not even shoot out of an m4 with a 1 in 9 twist, and some various 55 grain loads, they all did well, i talked to sherluk, they told me to send it back so they could take a close look at it
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:59:34 PM EST
3 more stats for my list! [bounce]

Thanks for the good stats. Nice solid info. interesting also
Thanks for the stats. I kinda got confused with the yardages. (was it reduced course or actual yrds?)Doen't matter they where probably all prone and not from a bench so they will fall in the sub moa stats below. Thanks
How many rounds thru the new barrel. Did you do a break in? Mine shot bad at first, but it's settling in. I'm getting around 1 MOA with my current reload. 69gr SMK, LC 75 case, 24gr VV N135, CCI primer, light crimp eeeek!(seated long to about 2.260 I believe. Just short enough to fit the mag). My groups were originally around 3"@100. Then as it broke in it tightened up. It is still load challanged. FMJ and other crap bullets shoot like crap. Mine takes a certain chemistry. I know I'm getting close now because I'm getting more consistent results. With some more tweeking I will get a good load I'm sure. Got 75gr to try next.  Anyway. Clean the %$&*#@ out of it. Use your cleaner then JB Bore cleaner, then your cleaner again.  Shoot a couple of groups to get anything left out. Clean again and try for groups with some good ammo. Pick a bullet and work the range of load data in about .3gr to .5gr increments. You will find a group that shoots better work around there. These rifles are really picky. More than the 20 and 16 inch barrels.  Try letting someone else shoot some groups. Someone you think shoots well. How's the bushy shooting?

[b][size=3]Ok the stats!!![/b][/size=3]
Custom barrels(kreiger, douglas,shilen,etc):
sub MOA = 2 (Hagar made a post!)
over MOA = 0 (dought there will B anyone in this group)

Aftermarket barrels over 20"+(including 24"):
Over MOA = 5
Under MOA = 5
undecided = 0

Aftermarket 20" (and 16",18")barrels
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 4(Thanks 4 good stats hellfinger)
Borderline = 1

Bushmaster n other manufacturer 24"
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 3
shooters that don't wanna talk about it = 2099
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 5:06:07 PM EST
I picked up the Bushy Varminter 3 weeks ago and it shoots .285 inch with 55 gr Hornady V-Max SP, 27.3 gr Varget, Lake City Brass and CCI 450 primers.  I very surprised when after just shooting ammo left around the house while breaking it in and getting around .75 to 1 inch groups.  (stuff I loaded 18 years ago)  While working up the accuracy loads it ended up being the second load.  The 27 grains of Varget gave me .3 of an inch.  I'm very pleased with this weapon.  
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 8:14:16 PM EST
I have a 16" SUM barrel (SS, target crown, bull barrel 1x8 twist) After several hundred rounds, I think I've finally broke it in. The groups went from 5" to about 1". Last time I was at the range I got 5 touching at 100 w/t 75gr BH blue box. Using a bipod throws it off considerably. Accuracy is also affected by the sharpness of the bit at the factory. Barrels in machined in the beginning of the day will shoot differently than those made with a dull bit.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:23:13 PM EST
exsanguinate, missed this stat!
Thanks d6354061 and Olyman!!!
Time for a new stat crunch.[bounce]
[b][size=3]Stats to date:[/size=3]

Custom barrels(kreiger, douglas,shilen,etc):
sub MOA = 3 (Hagar made a post!)
over MOA = 0 (dought there will B anyone in this group)

Aftermarket barrels over 20"+(including 24"):
Over MOA = 5
Under MOA = 5
undecided = 0

Aftermarket 20" (and 16",18")barrels
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 4(Thanks 4 good stats hellfinger)
Borderline = 1

Bushmaster n other manufacturer 24"
Over MOA = 0
Under MOA = 5
shooters that don't wanna talk about it = 2096[/b]
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