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Posted: 12/1/2007 4:12:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2007 4:16:00 PM EDT by constructor]
9, Want to talk about Grendel bolts?

I should have some interesting test results this week from the 6.5 Banshee.
25" 5R 10"twist and the LWRC bolt, The funny thing is, I headspaced it so it will shoot grendel ammo right out of the box.
I should have the final 6mm and 6.5mm match dies this next week.
I couldn't wait any longer on the 6mm 5Rbarrel so I used the Shilen 10" twist "select match" I should be able to test it after the dies come in and before christmas.

Email me --info@AR15PERFORMANCE.com
I don't want to post everything until I'm sure it holds up to the loads.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 4:43:04 PM EDT
can you express more info on the round itself? if you can set up the chamber to shoot 6.5 grendal right out of the box... i am guessing its kinda like an ackley improved version of the round? thanks, brian
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 5:12:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 7:01:41 AM EDT by constructor]
It's is opposite from an Ackley. I blew the front of shoulder forward to a 25 degree angle so it would feed better than the Grendel which has a 30 degree. Edit-it holds 1 more grain of water than the Grendel and the chamber was designed to optimize the performance of the 100 Scenar, 107 SMk and 108 Scenar at mag length.
I was rebating the rims so I could use stronger 6.8 bolts and load to higher pressures than the grendel, this time I'm using the LWRC bolt and plan to load to 65kpsi to see how the bolt holds up.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 6:45:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By constructor: it will shoot grendel ammo right out of the box.


Are you saying that your 6.8 bolt is large enough to contain the 6.5 Grendel head?

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 8:06:00 PM EDT
John,

I take it with the 6.8 bolts he was rebating the rims on the Grendel rounds and not sure if his LWRC bolt fits them unaltered or not.

Joe
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 9:14:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFA: I take it with the 6.8 bolts he was rebating the rims on the Grendel rounds and not sure if his LWRC bolt fits them unaltered or not.


That's how I would, generally, take it also, at first. But then he's not exactly shooting 6.5 Grendel "out-of-the-box."

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 9:34:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2007 1:35:17 PM EDT by constructor]

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:

Originally Posted By JFA: I take it with the 6.8 bolts he was rebating the rims on the Grendel rounds and not sure if his LWRC bolt fits them unaltered or not.


That's how I would, generally, take it also, at first. But then he's not exactly shooting 6.5 Grendel "out-of-the-box."

John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

Hey John,
what's up? Let the steam clear out before you read.. LOL
I opened up the LWRC bolt, other than that it headspaces off of the bottom of the shoulder in the Banshee.


Long barreld ARs look strange and yes they're single shots for a few days.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:13:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:33:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cold:

Originally Posted By constructor:
9, Want to talk about Grendel bolts?

I should have some interesting test results this week from the 6.5 Banshee.
25" 5R 10"twist and the LWRC bolt, The funny thing is, I headspaced it so it will shoot grendel ammo right out of the box.
I should have the final 6mm and 6.5mm match dies this next week.
I couldn't wait any longer on the 6mm 5Rbarrel so I used the Shilen 10" twist "select match" I should be able to test it after the dies come in and before christmas.

Email me --info@AR15PERFORMANCE.com
I don't want to post everything until I'm sure it holds up to the loads.


I believe his account was locked for 30 days by HellDog40, I want to say a week ago? however I am sure he can still read on here.


Yeah, thats why the joke about the G bolt
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 7:33:42 AM EDT
John,

Let's not go anywhere bad with this, but what you are stating is really nit picking. That's a very minor alteration that Constructor made to the out of the box rifle. We can learn something from this man if we pay attention and it's all for the good. He's not out to demeanor anyone or any company. He is experimenting towards good.

I really think all the fighting over bolts and AA arms is about over, at least it is for me. Let's strive towards making what we have even better.

Joe
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 8:11:15 AM EDT
Joe,
I think John knows I have nothing againest the Grendel but, he adopted it and feels the need to protect it's exsistence.
I am all about getting all of the performance(accuracy with velocity) from any round.
I think the Grendel just needed a little tweeking, a little slower twist, use of lighter bullets and a super bolt from the start or a Oly. wssm sized bolt.
I suggested a few things to try and Bill A. would hear none of it, He's one of those who can't admit to rushing things a little, the rounds already on the market and there are liability issues with increasing the working pressure of the Grendel just like there are with the 6.8. I can't force people to change their minds about what will or will not work.
I took it upon myself to test a few things with a slightly modified Grendel, I rebated the rim of the case so I could use 6.8 bolts and used a 10 twist cheap barrel. I could get more velocity than with the approved grendel loads but they still thought I was crazy for doing something Bill A. said not to(go over his load recommendation).
At that point I decided to do my own thing and not try to suggest anything on the Grendel site. I just chambered my 5R barrel and modified the LWRC dual spring bolt, loaded up 20 rounds going from Bill As load to a load that would make him cringe.
When I get to to point of seeing swipes I'll back off .5 gr so I don't get brass failure and then load for accuracy. I'm betting my right eye that I can get 2-300 more fps out of the round with no bolt failures.
The pressure test one of the Techs at work did for me shows the brass will flow between 65 and 70k psi. I used the 6.8 at a couple of 3 gun events in the last month loaded to test the bolt and almost every case was showing swipes. I think that was near 130 rounds at pressures close to 65k, Colt does 1 70k proof load so I think the bolts are strong enough for the 6.8, today I'll find out about the modified bolt.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 10:25:53 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By constructor:
I'm betting my right eye that I can get 2-300 more fps out of the round with no bolt failures.


If u shoot lefty then u ain't kiddin. How many rounds will u run? 1K, 5K, 10K, more?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:12:54 AM EDT
Who was talking about marketing super strength bolts for the 6.5? It would seem to make sense to make them with a little more meat for the 6.8 then it could just be machined for the 6.5.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 12:48:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By constructor:
Joe,
I think John knows I have nothing againest the Grendel but, he adopted it and feels the need to protect it's exsistence.
I am all about getting all of the performance(accuracy with velocity) from any round.
I think the Grendel just needed a little tweeking, a little slower twist, use of lighter bullets and a super bolt from the start or a Oly. wssm sized bolt.
I suggested a few things to try and Bill A. would hear none of it, He's one of those who can't admit to rushing things a little, the rounds already on the market and there are liability issues with increasing the working pressure of the Grendel just like there are with the 6.8. I can't force people to change their minds about what will or will not work.
I took it upon myself to test a few things with a slightly modified Grendel, I rebated the rim of the case so I could use 6.8 bolts and used a 10 twist cheap barrel. I could get more velocity than with the approved grendel loads but they still thought I was crazy for doing something Bill A. said not to(go over his load recommendation).
At that point I decided to do my own thing and not try to suggest anything on the Grendel site. I just chambered my 5R barrel and modified the LWRC dual spring bolt, loaded up 20 rounds going from Bill As load to a load that would make him cringe.
When I get to to point of seeing swipes I'll back off .5 gr so I don't get brass failure and then load for accuracy. I'm betting my right eye that I can get 2-300 more fps out of the round with no bolt failures.
The pressure test one of the Techs at work did for me shows the brass will flow between 65 and 70k psi. I used the 6.8 at a couple of 3 gun events in the last month loaded to test the bolt and almost every case was showing swipes. I think that was near 130 rounds at pressures close to 65k, Colt does 1 70k proof load so I think the bolts are strong enough for the 6.8, today I'll find out about the modified bolt.


Harrison,

I talked to Bill A. about the rebated rim. He said he didn't go with it because it's possible it could induce more feed problems. In a way I agree with him there. He did make an effort to make his bolts stronger, different steel, better heat treatment, etc., and I applaud him there. I just can't figure the deeper recessed bolt face, although it's not a lot, it's still there. I'd like to see him go to the what I call the shotgun face bolt like I told you about and which you said you're working on. That has to make that bolt much stronger.

I just didn't want John getting the wrong idea, which I don't think he did. For record you're on your own and this has nothing to do with finding faults or weaknesses, or bad mouthing the AA's 6.5 Grendel. This has all to do with getting more velocity and working out a new bolt design. Right?

Joe
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 6:42:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 6:59:32 PM EDT by constructor]

Originally Posted By JFA:

Originally Posted By constructor:
Joe,
I think John knows I have nothing againest the Grendel but, he adopted it and feels the need to protect it's exsistence.
I am all about getting all of the performance(accuracy with velocity) from any round.
I think the Grendel just needed a little tweeking, a little slower twist, use of lighter bullets and a super bolt from the start or a Oly. wssm sized bolt.
I suggested a few things to try and Bill A. would hear none of it, He's one of those who can't admit to rushing things a little, the rounds already on the market and there are liability issues with increasing the working pressure of the Grendel just like there are with the 6.8. I can't force people to change their minds about what will or will not work.
I took it upon myself to test a few things with a slightly modified Grendel, I rebated the rim of the case so I could use 6.8 bolts and used a 10 twist cheap barrel. I could get more velocity than with the approved grendel loads but they still thought I was crazy for doing something Bill A. said not to(go over his load recommendation).
At that point I decided to do my own thing and not try to suggest anything on the Grendel site. I just chambered my 5R barrel and modified the LWRC dual spring bolt, loaded up 20 rounds going from Bill As load to a load that would make him cringe.
When I get to to point of seeing swipes I'll back off .5 gr so I don't get brass failure and then load for accuracy. I'm betting my right eye that I can get 2-300 more fps out of the round with no bolt failures.
The pressure test one of the Techs at work did for me shows the brass will flow between 65 and 70k psi. I used the 6.8 at a couple of 3 gun events in the last month loaded to test the bolt and almost every case was showing swipes. I think that was near 130 rounds at pressures close to 65k, Colt does 1 70k proof load so I think the bolts are strong enough for the 6.8, today I'll find out about the modified bolt.


Harrison,

I talked to Bill A. about the rebated rim. He said he didn't go with it because it's possible it could induce more feed problems. In a way I agree with him there. He did make an effort to make his bolts stronger, different steel, better heat treatment, etc., and I applaud him there. I just can't figure the deeper recessed bolt face, although it's not a lot, it's still there. I'd like to see him go to the what I call the shotgun face bolt like I told you about and which you said you're working on. That has to make that bolt much stronger.

I just didn't want John getting the wrong idea, which I don't think he did. For record you're on your own and this has nothing to do with finding faults or weaknesses, or bad mouthing the AA's 6.5 Grendel. This has all to do with getting more velocity and working out a new bolt design. Right?

Joe


Today was an eye opener, I haven't chambered a barrel in 15 years so I bought a cheap Shaw blank in 308 to experiment on before I trash a Krieger or Bartlein. I turned it down to fit my DPMS LR10 and chambered it with a 95 Palma a few days ago, it went well as things came back to me. After that one I chambered the 6mmBanshee on a Shilen then the 6.5Banshee on a Mike Rock blank for AR15s.
I wanted to see if I still knew what I was doing so I shot the 308 3 times as sighters then pulled out my favorite Deer load 41gr H4895 and 165 Nosler BTs. 3 shots into .3"! out of a Shaw lol, I guess I shouldn't say anything bad about Shaw again.
Next I shot the 6.5 Rock 5R, the velocities were lower and the pressure higher than a cheap blank I used the last time The accuracy was good for having 10 different-2 shot loads all 20 shots were in a group of .9". This barrel is different in some way because the powders are losing efficiency. I was getting 2880 from a 107 SMk with no signs of pressure. I came home and cut 3" off of the barrel down to 22", I'll try some slower powders next week end.
Btw , 6 of the hottest loads had flat CCI 450 primers and the bolt looks fine. I 've never flattened a CCI before
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 10:17:16 PM EDT
M9, Another way change that barrel you have is to buy a Oly upper and rechamber your barrel to 6.5BR.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 10:25:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wirebrush:
Who was talking about marketing super strength bolts for the 6.5? It would seem to make sense to make them with a little more meat for the 6.8 then it could just be machined for the 6.5.


MGI is working on a bolt and LWRC has a high strength 6.8 bolt but they said they will not make a Grendel bolt, thats ok I did.
I am still waiting on the OLY wssm upper so I can build a 6BRX.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 7:25:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 7:33:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By constructor:
... I used the 6.8 at a couple of 3 gun events in the last month loaded to test the bolt and almost every case was showing swipes. ...


Were these the 130gr MPF loads? What velocity were you shooting them at?

Maybe I need to pick up one of them LWRC 6.8 bolts?


They were not MPF, all of the shoots around here dropped the class seperation.
Those were 90gr TNTs at 3000fps+. LWRC bare bolts are $150, by the time they're finished about $225.

My final mpf load is 2475 but, I can't remember the charge. The flat base Speers were more accurate.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 3:47:49 PM EDT
You wouldnt happen to have any pics of the two rounds, showing the shoulder difference or the flattened primers, would ya?

And I'm curious as to your barrels losing some powder efficiency. Possible reasons why? The lands, twist maybe?
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 4:47:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 6:10:14 PM EDT by constructor]

Originally Posted By ARmory04:
You wouldnt happen to have any pics of the two rounds, showing the shoulder difference or the flattened primers, would ya?

And I'm curious as to your barrels losing some powder efficiency. Possible reasons why? The lands, twist maybe?

Sure give me a few, I'll come back and edit here
left case loaded is G brass out of the box, right case is after firing it. G case is 30 degree, Banshee is 25. Flat primers on the right
Blury I'll try it again



EDIT- I'd like to tell you why I think there is a difference but, It's a secret till I buy all of them cheap.
And earlier I said it holds 1 more grain of powder, I meant water. It holds 1 more gr of water.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 6:08:24 PM EDT
Those look good pardner. Sure don't look like there are any pressure signs.

Joe
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 6:37:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 7:55:21 PM EDT by constructor]

Originally Posted By JFA:
Those look good pardner. Sure don't look like there are any pressure signs.

Joe

Those primers are flat, I just can't get close enough and focus.
That's better. The left is normal the one on the right was over 2900 with a 107gr SMK.
I shortened the barrel from 25 to 22 last night and will test again Sat.

Link Posted: 12/3/2007 7:06:41 PM EDT
Looks like they still have rounded corners though, although they say primers aren't a good way to judge pressure.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 7:59:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By constructor:

Originally Posted By ARmory04:
You wouldnt happen to have any pics of the two rounds, showing the shoulder difference or the flattened primers, would ya?

And I'm curious as to your barrels losing some powder efficiency. Possible reasons why? The lands, twist maybe?

Sure give me a few, I'll come back and edit here
left case loaded is G brass out of the box, right case is after firing it. G case is 30 degree, Banshee is 25. Flat primers on the right
Blury I'll try it again
i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/constructor2007/65028.jpg
i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/constructor2007/65B029.jpg

EDIT- I'd like to tell you why I think there is a difference but, It's a secret till I buy all of them cheap.
And earlier I said it holds 1 more grain of powder, I meant water. It holds 1 more gr of water.




I really appreciate the pics, and the research and effort for the Banshee.


LOL.... and yes, that's right, 1 more gr of water. Forgot....
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