Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 10/10/2004 9:11:38 AM EST
How would a M4 compare with a AK 74 variant in terms of accuracy and CQB?
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 9:31:46 AM EST
In CQB, speed rules. M4s are much more ergonomic/high speed.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 9:39:15 AM EST
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE<­BR>DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DU­PE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
DUPE
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=64607

Link Posted: 10/10/2004 9:43:39 AM EST
I am assuming you mean a military M4 rather than an M4gery and an original AK-74 chambered for 5.45x39mm. There are a variety of M4-like rifles out there with barrel lenghts ranging from 10" up to 16". Also, many former Warsaw pact countries have rechambered their AK's in 5.56 NATO which In either case though, the M4 would probably be better for both. An M4 shoot around 2 MOA with the average ammo, down to maybe 1.5 MOA with whatever ammo your particular rifle likes. Free float your barrel on an M4 and you're going to be approaching 1 MOA. For CQB, the M4 is smaller, lighter, and more modular.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 9:47:32 AM EST
dupe, yes

veteran here....no

My guess is hes just looking for a place to ask it.

The AR/M4 etc, is a preferred option based on light weight, CQB accessories like lights optics, etc., and other than that,..............

The M4 is the American way, and the AK is the Commie way

................in my opinion

welcome aboard, No1Here!

Link Posted: 10/10/2004 9:57:53 AM EST
sorry for the dupe, just wanted opinions from both sides
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 10:03:16 AM EST
m-4/car-15 all the way

to me the aks have a more complicated reload w/ the 'rocking' of the mag into the mag well
its heavier, louder, bulkier
and its reciever is too loose, causing less acuracy--accuracy wise, ars rule
and it will jam just like any other gun


i'd go w/ the a-4 any day of the week
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 10:22:37 AM EST
what about the AKS-74u?
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 10:23:53 AM EST
If a person can't hit something in CQB reguardless of rifle choice there's a serious problem and it's probably not the rifle.

I'd say it depends on what you need it to do if you plan on going to say..Vietnam and plodding around the jungle by far I'd take the rifle that you can kick the bolt open after it being rusted shut and start shooting. If you're sticking in good ol' North America the AR by far.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 11:13:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 12:01:39 PM EST
the Real deal M4 5.56mm and AK74 5.45mm
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 12:08:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 12:38:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 4:04:57 PM EST by USMC-0302]
To all:

As an old Grunt, I basically agree with the previous posts contained above.

As to omega-metroid comments: As you can see, he does support the majority opinion/experience in selecting AR over the AK. However, there is no question that it would take far-longer for a battle-loss AK to become inoperable than it would take for a U.S. M-16/ M-4. With that being said and with all due respect, the comment about being able to "... kick the bolt open after it being rusted shut and start shooting" is irrelevant.

In combat, no U.S. soldier/Marine , especially one who is required to execute CQB for rea, would EVER allow his M-16/M-4 to rust, much less rusting shut.! If that were the case, relieve the NCOs, SNCOs, AND officers who allowed such a thingto even occur.

A properly maintained weapon, good "buds", and sound leaders are probably the top 3 requirements to increase your chances of coming home walking. You, as an individual, can only ensure the number one requirement is being met, and can only influence what your "buds" think of you. Every thing else is out of you hands.

What happened in Nam is a long story which has probably been discussed many a time on this site. In a nutshell, the rifle (AR-15/M16), designed with a direct gas blowback operating system, was fielded too early. Troops were never trained on the maintenance requirement, Winchester engineers changed the powder without proper staffing, prior testing and/or examination by Remington, the arsenals, AND the plain fact that you can't use a .30 cal cleaning rod on a .223!!! The rifle arriveed in-country months before the cleaning rods! The procurement and manufacturing process was a disaster and cost unnecessary loss of life. Having
1) U.S. Army (by uniform plus Marines would never get away with this!).
2) Convoy duty.
3) Pray & spray,
4) Problem with the 55-62 grain bullet penetrating automobile windshield, glass, sheetmetal, etc.

I agree, the ammo needs a rework. They should be carrying A2s to maximize our current ammo.

In any case, I wish those GIs the best!

"Semper Fi"

http://www.protacglobal.com/images/2GI_IRAG.jpg

Link Posted: 10/10/2004 1:13:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 2:36:34 PM EST by El_Roto]
1) The photo must already be on the 'Net
2) Copy the URL of the photo and paste it into the REPLY window
3) Bracket the photo's URL with ( img) and(/img), but replace the parenthesis, ( ), with brackets, [ ] (if I'd used brackets in the expample it wouldn't have shown up).

example (img)www.protacglobal.com/images/LiteWeight.jpg(/img) replacing the ( ) with [ ]
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 1:31:25 PM EST
The AK-74 is not as accurate as the M4. But make no mistake, it is the most reliable, dependable rifle you can carry. I have MANY of the AR-15 and AK rifles and can tell you that the AK system is damn near bullet proof. I like the AR for it's accuracy and ergonomics and it performs well when kept properly maintained. But you have to appreciate the absolute reliability of the Kalashnikov design. under the most brutal environments. In every carbine course I have taken, the AR-15 rifles are the first to experience malfunctions. I love the AR rifle, but keep it clean and lubed and it will treat you well. If you don't like to clean your rifle and want absoulute reliability and are willing to give up some accuracy, the AK system is for you. My .02
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 1:43:31 PM EST
its reliablity doesn't excuse its shortcommings...

an AR is 90% just as reliable as an AK if you do your part with mags and up keep...
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 2:49:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 2:55:41 PM EST by USMC-0302]
Colt4PostBan

I agree with you concerning the reliability of the AK-series. However, from a practical standpoint in combat", no rifle is even near bullet proof. A slug impacting the receiver cover or forend would take a AK out of action just like a round impacting the forend of an M-16/4. This may be a technicality since I assume the author of this posting is talking from a gun-range, tactical shooting school, recreational viewpoint.

Properly maintained, the M-16 A2-4 is presently the best combat rifle in the world. The former Warsaw Pact members are switching from AKs to AR(M-16s)s. A significant number of nations already agree and it served my Marines well! The ammo can use some improvement, however.

The M-16A3/4 shouldn't be compared to the original product. The Marine Corps forced Colt to revamp the rifle and build an infantryman's rifle (M-16A2) with better sights, stiffer barrel, better flash suppressor etc.

If you believe that the real definition of "firepower" is a hit on target we've (US) got what we need. If your talking multiple soldiers whose tactics call for "praying and spraying go with the AK. A few weeks ago a Marine rifle company from 22dMEU(SOC) waxed over 300 of Sadr's Militia as they charged through the main cemetery. Our Marines were primarily armed with M-16A2s and they took deliberate aim. As an aside the 3 wounded Marines refused to be Medevac'd, and remained in the fight.

Shooting schools are great, and I for one encourage attendance Thunder Ranch or Gunsight in particular. However, the "adversaries" are at relatively short range and they don't shoot lead back at you. Combat it is not.

Again, both of us have valid points to make. No1Here will ultiimately decide.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 3:03:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By 20iner:
what about the AKS-74u?



More of a SMG than anything else...

In the same class as a DOE M16...
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:09:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 4:10:43 PM EST by El_Roto]

Originally Posted By USMC-0302:
Colt4PostBan

I agree with you concerning the reliability of the AK-series. However, from a practical standpoint in combat", no rifle is even near bullet proof. A slug impacting the receiver cover or forend would take a AK out of action just like a round impacting the forend of an M-16/4. This may be a technicality since I assume the author of this posting is talking from a gun-range, tactical shooting school, recreational viewpoint.

Properly maintained, the M-16 A2-4 is presently the best combat rifle in the world. The former Warsaw Pact members are switching from AKs to AR(M-16s)s. A significant number of nations already agree and it served my Marines well! The ammo can use some improvement, however.

The M-16A3/4 shouldn't be compared to the original product. The Marine Corps forced Colt to revamp the rifle and build an infantryman's rifle (M-16A2) with better sights, stiffer barrel, better flash suppressor etc.

If you believe that the real definition of "firepower" is a hit on target we've (US) got what we need. If your talking multiple soldiers whose tactics call for "praying and spraying go with the AK. A few weeks ago a Marine rifle company from 22dMEU(SOC) waxed over 300 of Sadr's Militia as they charged through the main cemetery. Our Marines were primarily armed with M-16A2s and they took deliberate aim. As an aside the 3 wounded Marines refused to be Medevac'd, and remained in the fight.

Shooting schools are great, and I for one encourage attendance Thunder Ranch or Gunsight in particular. However, the "adversaries" are at relatively short range and they don't shoot lead back at you. Combat it is not.

Again, both of us have valid points to make. No1Here will ultiimately decide.


Great Post!
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:34:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 4:38:27 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:36:47 PM EST
Screw it, I had the +s and -s of each listed, and just decided to shorten it..

GET BOTH!!!
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:54:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:14:16 PM EST
While I stand by my guns, what do you think of this for a turn-around? I have my own, but I'll wait and se what my you younger "pups" think...

Marines would never get away with this!

http://www.protacglobal.com/images/2GI_IRAQ.jpg
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:35:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:56:09 PM EST
The AK balances too far forward...
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 7:08:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 7:11:10 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By USMC-0302:
While I stand by my guns, what do you think of this for a turn-around? I have my own, but I'll wait and se what my you younger "pups" think...

Marines would never get away with this!




What's with the green tape around the foregrip of the AKM of the Iraqi Guardsman on the right?

I heard the new AK's we were issuing them weren't the best quality (Romanian) but surely that can't be to hold the foregrip together... any ideas?
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 7:22:13 PM EST
Keeps your sweaty hand from slipping on the wooden stock, I'm guessing.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 7:29:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 7:30:39 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By USMC-0302:
While I stand by my guns, what do you think of this for a turn-around? I have my own, but I'll wait and se what my you younger "pups" think...

Marines would never get away with this!

www.protacglobal.com/images/2GI_IRAQ.jpg



Those are Iraqis.

Of course, US troops who wern't issued rifles did (and in some cases do) pick up AKs, but that's a distinct minority and a unique situation...
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 7:42:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 7:42:58 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By USMC-0302:
While I stand by my guns, what do you think of this for a turn-around? I have my own, but I'll wait and se what my you younger "pups" think...

Marines would never get away with this!

www.protacglobal.com/images/2GI_IRAQ.jpg



Those are Iraqis.

Of course, US troops who wern't issued rifles did (and in some cases do) pick up AKs, but that's a distinct minority and a unique situation...



You mean like this guy?


Link Posted: 10/11/2004 12:31:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:06:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By No1Here:
How would a M4 compare with a AK 74 variant in terms of accuracy and CQB?



What a stupid question to ask on an AR15 forum. What kind of answer did you expect to get? This is like asking a bunch of NRA members if they think the AWB was a good thing or not. You already KNOW what the answer is going to be.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:41:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:

Originally Posted By No1Here:
How would a M4 compare with a AK 74 variant in terms of accuracy and CQB?



What a stupid question to ask on an AR15 forum. What kind of answer did you expect to get? This is like asking a bunch of NRA members if they think the AWB was a good thing or not. You already KNOW what the answer is going to be.



Fortunately, there were a few objective answers!
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:31:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 5:33:39 AM EST by ColtM4postban]
USMC 0302,
I meant the AK sytem is near bullet proof from the design standpoint, not literaly.
I will be the first to say that the M4 when it is kept clean and lubed is the best rifle out there.
I too have been to Thunder Ranch and other facilities but it is always the AR rifles that are the first to malfunction, the same as when you go to most carbine matches that I have been to. I have shot over 25,000 rounds through AK rifles that I have owned over the years and I can't recall a malfunction

AR rifles however have let me down more times than I want to admit.
The AK-74 is a VERY durable rifle and that will perform in the worst conditions imaginable, that is the point I am trying to make. A rifle most important feature is that it performs all the time and will not let you down.
To sum it up: I carry my M4 and love it for the pinpoint accuracy and ergonomics, but if I have to shoot several hundred rounds without cleaning and plan on being in harsh environments, I'll take the AK hands down and so will the vast majority if they are smart.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 12:04:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:

Originally Posted By No1Here:
How would a M4 compare with a AK 74 variant in terms of accuracy and CQB?



What a stupid question to ask on an AR15 forum. What kind of answer did you expect to get? This is like asking a bunch of NRA members if they think the AWB was a good thing or not. You already KNOW what the answer is going to be. hr



i came here to ask because i knew that the members would have experince with the M4 and also the 74 platform due to the S.E.A.K. rifles.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:30:13 PM EST
Well I don't think that it's all that stupid of question......I go back to hearing my dad saying that there is a tool for every job both wepons have their pro's and con's

The AR is more ergonomic and accruate and at present time has more tricks but its has more parts to go south its picky about ammo and its prone to jamming when dirty

The Ak will work in most any enoivrment and is less picky as far as ammo outfits like kribs cutsom guns make picatinny forearms and rear dustcover mount A2 style sights and black jack is making a safty lever that is easyer to reach and has a last shot hold open. To the credit of the AK is it easy to service and clean it was desinged to be used by operators with little time for trainning.

As fair as CQB the short distances don't reqire the accruacy of a sniper rife as it dose ease of operation the both have come a long way form their orignal form and can be tricked out to be serviceable tools I think the bottom line is that 15% is eqipment and 85% is trainning the pros and cons can be over come thru trainning one may lend itself to one task over the other but it comes down to at the end of the gunfight who was more trianned and comitted to the action

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:01:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:03:50 PM EST
No1Here, I don't know how new you are to guns in general. Or to these that you ask of. But have you ever looked at the M1A or a Good FN FAL?

If I had to put my life on the line with one rifle and only that weapon. Know matter what the surrounding conditions were. It would be my FAL, w/ Izzi charging handle, short gas system, 18" barrel, with an Aim point or EoTec . I have been to shoots before and have seen those cool looking EBRs (Evil Black Rifles) jamming quite often. My FALs has never had that problem or the M1As. Even if I don't clean them for a thousand rounds, they still run.

I just got an AR15 after the ban to fit in with this crowd more or less. And they are cheaper to shoot then the 308. They do feel good and can be lighter then the FAL or M1A. Its just I have been let down so many times in the past with AR's I don't have a lot of faith in them. But I'm going to give it another try at lease for target practice. If for nothing else its good practice for clearing drills. My $.02
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 11:54:54 PM EST
Amen to the m4 over the AK for CQB,But it wouldn't hurt to have a short 12 gauge pump with some 00 and slugs..ya know just in case
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:39:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 2:41:13 AM EST by _DR]
I don't know, slicing the pie in tight quarters with a Krinkov shorty with a 75 round drum on full auto might be quite effective at clearing a room full of bad guys after a couple of flashbangs or frags.

Now in an HRT situation, where you can't spray and pray, yeah, give me an M4 or an MP5 everytime.

The Russians didn't do such a great job of handling the school hostage situation in Beslan. Of course this has a lot to do with HRT tactics, but accuracy in HRT technique is paramount in these scenarios, and I think we all agree the M4 is more accurate overall (than the AK), given the same operator skill level.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:18:39 AM EST
Whats the difference in accuracy of 55 and 62 grain compared to the 77 grain? reason i ask is because ive read that for the M4 to be effective the 77 grain is best.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:04:47 AM EST
Ok, go ask the same question on an AK forum and I BET that most peope will say the AK is better.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:27:15 AM EST
I don't think anyone has stated that the AK-74 with brake is much more controllable in full-auto. fire than an M-4.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:35:19 AM EST
We also haven't brought up the Valmet's or Galil's.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:50:23 AM EST

I thought I would jump into the dupe thread too.

In the last two years I have had around three dozen AK failures. They include two failures to feed in my SEAK AK-74 yesterday using an East German mag that has never failed me before. Usually the Bulgarians do that to me with the SEAK. Then there is my VEPR K which likes to spit out live rounds and close the bolt on an empty chamber. I've posted in the AK forums about that problem three or four times in the last year. Sometimes it stops doing it for a few mags then it starts again. All these were with FMJ ammo. I can't remember all the other failure details right now. I have five AKs at the moment so I get confused about it without my notes handy and many times I did not document it.

In this same time period I had a single failure with one of my ARs. My bolt locked onto a live round and would not eject it. I took the bolt out and the Q3131A round was stuck like glue. So I reassembled and shot it. Then I added oil and had no further problems. If not for that fluke happening two weeks ago I would not have had a single AR malfunction in two years. Well, except for the AR-180... Then there are the HK rifle malfunctions... And the Galil malfunctions...

The only rifles I have never experienced failures with are the ones I don't shoot much.

Of the ones I do shoot a lot of, the ARs are way ahead of the AKs when it comes to reliability.

If you want to talk automobiles, I have $4,000 in maintenance and repairs on my Mercedes this year. I guess that's because I actually drive it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:14:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By No1Here:
Whats the difference in accuracy of 55 and 62 grain compared to the 77 grain? reason i ask is because ive read that for the M4 to be effective the 77 grain is best.



77gr SMK is the mst accurate mag-length AR round available...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:21:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By ColtM4postban:
USMC 0302,
I meant the AK sytem is near bullet proof from the design standpoint, not literaly.
I will be the first to say that the M4 when it is kept clean and lubed is the best rifle out there.
I too have been to Thunder Ranch and other facilities but it is always the AR rifles that are the first to malfunction, the same as when you go to most carbine matches that I have been to. I have shot over 25,000 rounds through AK rifles that I have owned over the years and I can't recall a malfunction

AR rifles however have let me down more times than I want to admit.
The AK-74 is a VERY durable rifle and that will perform in the worst conditions imaginable, that is the point I am trying to make. A rifle most important feature is that it performs all the time and will not let you down.
To sum it up: I carry my M4 and love it for the pinpoint accuracy and ergonomics, but if I have to shoot several hundred rounds without cleaning and plan on being in harsh environments, I'll take the AK hands down and so will the vast majority if they are smart.



Only if you believe a few guys at 'Thunder Ranch' with unknown condition ARs are good representitives of the actual reliability rate of the AR...

Personally, I've had about 3-4 jams with my AK (SAR-1), and not one jam with the AR (Olympic Arms PCR-4). Both rifles are cleaned & lubed regularly, both have similar round couts, and are fed the same brands of (cheap, crappy) ammo...

Evidence from actual military use seems to track with the concept that ANY GUN will jam with about equal probability if maintained poorly in a place like Iraq. That INCLUDES AKs...

So given that reliability is a non-issue, the AR platform is superior for PROFESSIONAL MILITARY use.

For a bunch of armchari commandos who like to shoot 10,000 rounds without cleaning, then maybe those guys should use the more primative system,....
Top Top