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Posted: 12/29/2002 1:42:56 PM EST
I have been seing allot recently about how M4geries have many more problems than a full length AR-15. I hear about everything from extraction problems, to "shearing" off brass and getting it jammed in between the bolt and such...

I want an M4 clone in 16 inch BBL, but not if its going to give me tons of problems. Do M4's tend to have allot more problems than a standard 20 inch?

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 1:51:34 PM EST
nope.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:14:21 PM EST
Not mine either. Spare yourself some aggravation, if you get one, and order a couple of the heavy duty extractor springs from Wolff Gunsprings: [url]gunsprings.com[/url] Don't worry about anything you read about using a black, instead of blue, insert. Colt tells me that they're exactly the same. Go ahead and install one of the heavy duty springs in your weapon (with the insert) stash the other one in your spare parts bag,for when you may need it several thousand rounds from now, and have a good time [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:18:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:30:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:40:25 PM EST
One more question, is their ANY way to put a collapsible stock on a preban?? ANY way at all? I cant register the damn thing with th atf or something?? Ahhhh I want one!
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:45:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Troy: Re: extractor spring insert colors The inserts are the same, other than being blue or black, that's true. The reason they are different colors is to differentiate between the spring itself (the spring and insert are sold as an assembly). The spring that comes with the blue extractor insert is stronger than the standard one with the black insert. -Troy
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Troy, I think you got it bass ackwards. The blue has been the standard color since Viet Nam days. My earliest AR came w/a white insert, more years ago than I care to think about [:D] Then blue, and Colt came up w/the black as you said, to indicate that the spring w/it is their version of the HD.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:54:05 PM EST
No problems with my Bushmaster. Put another 200 rounds through it today.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 5:03:00 PM EST
Wouldn't a lot of these problems be solved by using something like the Bushmaster Dissipator carbine that has a 16" barrel but full length gas system? [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/weapons/bushmaster_xm15_e2s_dissipator_16.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 5:10:04 PM EST
The Dissipator has a 16" gas system under the handguards.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 5:29:00 PM EST
So the gas port doesn't go up to the front sight base?
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 5:30:17 PM EST
The short CAR gas system is why I'm going w/ an Armalite mid-length setup. It adds two more inches from breech to gas port, allowing a better gas pulse. And the barrel remains at 16". For what it's worth.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:45:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Knife_Sniper: One more question, is their ANY way to put a collapsible stock on a preban?? ANY way at all? I cant register the damn thing with th atf or something?? Ahhhh I want one!
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If it's a preban you have, it's legal to put a collapsible stock on it. Or if you have a post ban just wait two years and, God willing, you will be home free to put almost any accesory on your AR.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:49:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By mcantu: So the gas port doesn't go up to the front sight base?
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That would cause more problems. The muzzle has to be a certain distance from the gas port for the weapon to function properly. The solution to that might be a pigtail gas tube, but I don't know anything about those so I am not sure why they don't use it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:52:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 6:52:23 PM EST by M-Forgery]
I have two Colt's M-Forgerys one with a 16" barrel and one with a 14.5" barrel. I put heavy duty extractor springs in both and have not had a problem.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:52:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 6:53:27 PM EST by knightone]
Originally Posted By Troy: All AR rifles with the carbine-length gas system have faster, rougher extraction which occasionally contributes to problems. It's because the gas system is much shorter, and under higher pressure due to the gas port in the barrel being closer to the chamber. This means that it is a bit less forgiving of other problems than ARs with the rifle-length gas system. Of course, the problems weren't severe enough to prevent the whole US Army from adopting the M4 to replace the M16A2 (bad move IMO, as the M4 is really a dedicated CQB weapon, not a general purpose weapon). But civilians like to shoot cheap, questionable ammo loaded with different powders and bullet weights, which can exaggerate the problems. The military shoots a few high-quality loads that are pre-tested with the rifle, and don't have as many problems. -Troy
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Troy, I thought the Army wasn't allowed to switch from the M16 to the M4 in the end. Didn't they decide the M4 wasn't a significant improvement over the M16A2 to warrant a changeover as a changeover would have threatened the FN contract because of the Colt patent. Didn't FN go to court over thwir threatened M16 contract and win? Unless yu are talking about the Land Warrior system.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 6:58:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 6:58:33 PM EST by rifleshooter]
Originally Posted By Troy: Of course, the problems weren't severe enough to prevent the whole US Army from adopting the M4 to replace the M16A2 (bad move IMO, as the M4 is really a dedicated CQB weapon, not a general purpose weapon). But civilians like to shoot cheap, questionable ammo loaded with different powders and bullet weights, which can exaggerate the problems. The military shoots a few high-quality loads that are pre-tested with the rifle, and don't have as many problems. -Troy
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Troy, Can you share your military experience with us? Thanks, Bill
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 7:07:10 PM EST
Of course, no one seems to know for sure but last I heard the M-4 series was only to replace the M-16A2 in certain units. For example, Airborne, Air Assualt, etc.Some units, like 3rd Armored (mech inf) seem to be getting the M-16A4 (flattop M-16A2) instead. I have had no problems with my issued M-4A1. Of course that is with military ammo, not some cheap 3rd world surplus crap. Once fired about 3000 rounds in one day, with out problems. One thing people forget is that the extractor spring is different between the M-4 and M-16. I will have to look in the TM, but I think some other bolt parts might be different as well.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 8:25:42 PM EST
I think the 'problems' with the M4 are not really applicable to 99.99% of shooters. From what I've been able to find out, the Marines had problems with bolts, extractors, and gas-tubes, only under prolonged auto-fire situations. If you check out the USMC Times, there's an article about Colt getting one more chance to fix these 'problems' but I'm not sure what the whole story is. I'll never buy an M4, because I intend to keep shooting at varmints with my 20" A3 BUSHMASTER, and an M4 isn't as suitable for this. Of course, if the red parachutes start coming down in my hometown, I'll probably change my mind.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 8:51:04 PM EST
My friend Derek bought his Bushmaster 20" just months before I bought my Bushmaster M4A3. Both brand new, both similarly cared for. His jams more than mine does. We both were using cheap POS USA mags. He would often get empty shell casing lodged inbetween the bolt face and the charging handle. Mine has never done this.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 8:53:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rifleman308: The short CAR gas system is why I'm going w/ an Armalite mid-length setup. It adds two more inches from breech to gas port, allowing a better gas pulse. And the barrel remains at 16".
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Or you could go with the M16 pigtail gas tube. It wraps around the barrel under the handguard. This way, you get the full-length gas tube on a carbine-length barrel.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 9:53:54 PM EST
well i had a shoot today with my Bushy M4.... and a sand storm nailed me.... LOL my upper had black tar dirt sloshing around in it....I over oiled it a bit because it was new....just breaking in the bolt to the upper... No jams whatsoever.... I was also using PMC ammo... when you pulled the charging handle back it made a very nasty grit grinding sound LOL... I'm buying an aircompressor and nozzle tomarrow so i can clean it withou having to hose it down hehe. LittleJacek
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:58:52 AM EST
the m4 has totally replaced the m16a3??? i did not know this....i thought the m4 was being used selectively with the m16a3 still in there as well. am i wrong? and arent the m4 probs attributed to full auto functioning, as opposed to semi-auto? what i mean is the cycle dynamics on the 14.5 and 16 inch m4 barrel in semi-auto are not challenging the mechanism excessively? just wondering.....havent fired my new MT6400C yet.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 4:43:34 AM EST
The M-4 is not completely replacing M16's anywhere. Both the Marine Corp and the Army are replacing many M16A2's with the updated M16A4 ( A3 upper reciever, three round burst, and optional KAC rail system). There is an M16A3 but it is full auto like the M16A1 and M4A1 - chances are you won't see one on active duty unless you're in an elite unit. I just left 1st Armored Division - and yes, many mechanized infantry guys are getting the M16A4 along with combat engineers, gun bunnys, etc. Many tankers, light infantry, MP's, get the standard M4( 3 round burst with A3 upper) for their particular mission. As said before, the M4 is reliable but is limited to CQB for the most part. The new extractor spring does have a black insert - the only thing different is the spring itself as Troy said. The only other differences I know of on the M-4 are the feed ramps in the chamber. Two different barrel types are in service - the standard lighweight M-4 barrel and a heavy barrel version for many of the full auto M4A1's. Both have NSN numbers and are in the current TM. I own one M4gery - a preban Colt AR15 with a Bushmaster barrel - I have had zero problems with the gun - all my malfunctions were do to bad magazines or sh#tty ammo. You get what you pay for - if you use cheap aftermarket magazines and ammuntion from some third world sh#thole you may have more problems then the M16's first fielded in Vietnam. Anyone who has a Class III weapon or uses an M4A1 for duty may want to install the new extractor spring - but again I can't understand all the complaints over the M-4. If properly cleaned and maintained - an M-4 shouldn't function under the most adverse conditions. If people function test their mags to weed out bad mags and use good ammo - whats the problem? I love my two preban M-4gery's but still own a regular 20" rifle - every weapon has its limitations - I think another reason why the military continues to use both rifle and carbine versions.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 4:56:58 AM EST
In the units I saw in Kuwait earlier this year the mech units had combinations of M4, M16A2 and M16A4, all sorts of different accessories on the rifles. When I get back to work I'll go through the pictures I took during my year there and post some M16/M4 pictures. This will be in about 2 weeks since I'm home on leave. I don't know if I got any M16s in my Afghanastan pictures but I'll go through those too. Most of the pics were on Bahgram Air Base.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:21:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 5:28:15 AM EST by Lumpy196]
My pre-ban Bushmaster with a 14.5" M4 upper has proven totally reliable through several thousand rounds of Black Hills 55gr FMJ and Federal XM193. I have the Arm-forte D-Ring extractor insert in it. I've noted no unusual wear on the gun or on brass, and I have complete faith in the gun. I've found that using only GOOD condition GI mags (w/green followers and Wolfe extra-power springs) has helped too. As I understand it, the majority of the reliablity problems with the military have come from shooting high volumes of sustained fire. With a semi-auto, you're not likely to experience this level of abuse.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:31:58 AM EST
I have just finished breaking in a new M4 barrel. No FTFs and suprisingly good accuracy, especially with irons.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:41:14 PM EST
I was re-sighting in my Bushy M4, about halfway through, I sit down, slap a mag in, and pull the charging handle back. Release. Ready, aim, *click*. I'm like, "Oh crap. Keep it pointed downrange... ah, screw it." And I drop the mag, jerk the charging handle back and... the chamber is empty. I didn't check the mag, wasn't in all the way. That's the only problem I have ever had with my M4. And I shoot often, and sometimes really fast.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:53:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:11:45 AM EST
I think that the reason that most pics of out of Afgan are with M-4s is that the units going are Airborne, Air Assault, light infantry. M-16A4s seem to be going to mech units.
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