Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/14/2003 8:40:41 AM EDT
Hi guys, I have been looking hard at the M4 type models from Bushmaster and Armalite. What kind of accuracy (@100) can you expect from these rifles, and with what kind of sighting systems? Also, what is normal iron sight accuracy?
Thanks in advance for helping a newbie out, LOL.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:48:28 AM EDT
Accuracy is accuracy, irons or scopes, you'll get approx. 1-2 MOA w/ a 16" and M193 or M855. With match ammo, depending on the rifle, perhaps sub-MOA. This is, "chrome-lined" M4 I'm talking. Mike
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:09:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 9:14:16 AM EDT by Run2The9]
2MOA! are you serious! I don't know if I want to fork up almost $1,000 for gun and possibly end up with 2MOA. Is that everyones experience?? How about with a good 20" barrel, although I can't see a longer barrel making that much of a difference. It doesn't in bolt guns, anyway.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:21:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Run2The9: 2MOA! are you serious! I don't know if I want to fork up almost $1,000 for gun and possibly end up with 2MOA. Is that everyones experience?? How about with a good 20" barrel, although I can't see a longer barrel making that much of a difference. It doesn't in bolt guns, anyway.
View Quote
Lightweight, 16" barrel. Intended for compact manueverability, not match shooting. I have an Oly M4 that shoots about 1 MOA, no better. It was $800 thru my dealer.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:27:49 AM EDT
What everyone has said is true. The M-4 and 16" inch rifles are for quick work in tight places. A 20" will get you at least 1 MOA or better. Get a flat top 20" and you can mount whatever optics you want, from holo sights to regular rifle scopes.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:28:39 AM EDT
My M4gerey shoots better than my mini-14, but not as accurate as any of my deer/big game rifles. The M4 type AR in my opinion is for hitting man sized targets, not varmit sized targets a million yards out. That being said I still would like to get a very snazzy AR varmit rig, it would have to be fun!
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:30:29 AM EDT
I have and Rockriver M4gry w/ a 4xACOG...with xm193/Q3131a its a .75-1.50 inch rifle...Probably shoot better with handloads or "match ammo" but what's the point? I have sub moa bolt guns so I don't really need a .25" AR...I figure 1-2" groups with Mil-spec ammo is great, any less than that and your outshooting the ammo itself.........UNDERDOG
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:31:09 AM EDT
From Bushmaster own site reguarding 20" A2: [blue][b]What kind of accuracy (group size) should I expect out of my new Bushmaster XM15E2S (20" bbl.)?[/b] This is always a hard question to answer because so many things are out of our control. Its like asking how fast will this car go? It depends! - how good is the driver? - what kind of fuel are you burning? - oil? - tires? etc. [b]Military spec. declares that 4.8" groups at 100 yards is acceptable accuracy[/b], but all of our barrels (even the 10" ones!) will do better than that. We usually say that our barrels [b]will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards[/b] but that is under a "controlled conditions" stipulation that includes using match ammo; on a solid bench; with a scope sight on a good rigid mount; in the hands of an experienced shooter under good range conditions. But all of those conditions are necessary for good tight groups whether you are shooting an AR, a custom varmint rifle or Grandpa's deer gun. In our experience, most reported accuracy problems stem from bad scope mounting. If you'll spend $800 for an AR and $200 - $400 for quality optics, don't cheap out with a $20 scope mount. Another big variable in the accuracy equation is ammunition. You wouldn't expect your car to run well on kerosene, so don't expect accuracy with $2 a box ammo. A Bushmaster quality rifle, with a quality scope in a quality mount, firing some match ammo, will give you those 1 inch (or better) groups![/blue] That's why I gave ya generalized figures up top. BTW, as noted above you asked about a M4, which is a specialized type of AR rifle designed for 0-300 meter engaugements for the most part. Mike
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:35:40 AM EDT
Mr_Wilson, thanks for posting that!
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:37:29 AM EDT
Not to highjack but where in VA are you from?
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:31:07 AM EDT
Do not expect better than 2 MOA. If its better be happy. With M193 expect 3 MOA sometimes. If you have never used AR irons before expect 4-6 MOA. This is the gods honest truth. If you use match ammo and are a bad ass shot it can be a bit better but these are the usual results. If you want a sub MOA rifle go get a bolt gun.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 10:58:42 AM EDT
With an EOTECH 552 I was seeing .75 groups at 50 yards, from a BENCH. This was with XM193 out of a 16" barrel. I am sure the rifle could do better with a magnified scope, etc., but I did not put the rifle together to shoot MOA. (.75 at 50 is about 1.5 MOA.) Irons make things much more interesting unless you are a VERY good shooter.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 11:01:36 AM EDT
The rifles are plenty accurate. Limited only by the ammo and the shooters skill. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=172019[/url]
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 11:05:10 AM EDT
Devil is right I have on accasion shot 1MOA with my KAC but it dosn't happen often. The rifle shoots better than I can with iron sights. Most of my groups are 1.5MOA and 2MOA and I am copletly satisfied with that. I know if I scoped it it would shoot better but it is my handy (SHTF) cabine for short range work.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 11:09:22 AM EDT
With a M4 16" barrel, I generally get 2 MOA groups, with both IMI M855, and Federal/LC XM-193 ammo. This is with Aimpoint CompML2, not irons - my eyesight is getting worse with age, so the red dot helps a great deal. Now, with my Bushmaster 16" heavy post ban barrel, I have gotten near MOA groups at 300 yards (3-4" groups on OCCASION, not all the time). This is with an scope, mind you.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 12:03:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 12:04:36 PM EDT by MaverickMkii]
Your carbine should be able to do 2 MoA with all mil-spec components and mil-spec ammunition, off bench.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 12:44:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 12:47:23 PM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By Run2The9: 2MOA! are you serious! I don't know if I want to fork up almost $1,000 for gun and possibly end up with 2MOA. Is that everyones experience??
View Quote
Accuracy is depedant on the nut behind the stock and the ammo that is fed it. I don't care if you have a $500,000 custom rifle and have won at Camp Perry for the last 20 years - if you feed the rifle sub-par ammo you will get sub par performance. Notice MR_Wilson indicated the use of MILITARY SURPLUS ammo for that 2 moa figure. That of course assumes you are even capable of shooting that well. I don't think I know anyone capable of shooting 1moa consistantly offhand (the way carbines are often used) and I do know people who have won at Camp Perry. Besides you don't buy M4 Carbines for sub MOA accuracy (though they are certainly capable of it with the right ammo). You buy them as lightweight, durable and reliable carbines (fighting/plinking implements).
How about with a good 20" barrel,
View Quote
As you pointed out barrel length is irrelavant.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 7:47:53 PM EDT
Unless your name is Gulliver and you're planning a payback raid on the Lilliputians you don't need 1 MOA groups from a carbine! Scot
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:30:50 PM EDT
Or an Ar10 or a Les Baer or a Wilson.
Originally Posted By DevL: Do not expect better than 2 MOA. If its better be happy. With M193 expect 3 MOA sometimes. If you have never used AR irons before expect 4-6 MOA. This is the gods honest truth. If you use match ammo and are a bad ass shot it can be a bit better but these are the usual results. If you want a sub MOA rifle go get a bolt gun.
View Quote
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:20:16 AM EDT
I am not looking for Sub-MOA in a semi auto. But 1.5 MOA with the right barrel, Good optics, and proper ammo; should be in reach. I mean we KNOW it is not the cartridges fault, as the .223 is very accurate. As far as the shooter goes, I manage .75groups with my .270win, shooting factory hornady ammo, in a T/C Encore single shot to boot! So sub-MOA I don't expect. Slightly Sub-2MOA I demand! So maybe I should be looking at one of the heavy 16" barrels for this carbine/M4?
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 12:05:59 PM EDT
No a standard chrome lined Bushmaster M4 profile will shoot moa with decent ammo (American Eagle, Black Hills, SAMMI pressure Winchester). The HBAR will not make the rifle more accurate. Talk with NewARguy - he's got a chrome lined M4 barrel with SIR (free float handguard) and gets sub moa at 300 yards.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 1:36:01 PM EDT
What I was referencing was M193 ammo as 2MOA and sometimes 3MOA. With match ammo my M4 got sub 2 MOA the first time I shot it before it was even broken in. If you work up a handload or find ammo your particular rifle just happems to really love you can get Sub MOA with FF, trigger optics etc. You just should not think you can take a bone stock milspec rilfle shootin milspec ammo and start shooting 1.5" groups guaranteed with iron sights. It just wont happen more often that on rare occasion.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 1:49:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Run2The9: I am not looking for Sub-MOA in a semi auto. But 1.5 MOA with the right barrel, Good optics, and proper ammo; should be in reach. I mean we KNOW it is not the cartridges fault, as the .223 is very accurate. As far as the shooter goes, I manage .75groups with my .270win, shooting factory hornady ammo, in a T/C Encore single shot to boot! So sub-MOA I don't expect. Slightly Sub-2MOA I demand! So maybe I should be looking at one of the heavy 16" barrels for this carbine/M4?
View Quote
Run2, I have an ArmaLite M15A4 carbine and that AR will deliver better than 2MOA with decent ammunition. Sometimes it will deliver with Milsurp. Just depends on the milsurp. (Unfortunately, accuracy is most often limited by this shooter !) I don't believe you'll like a heavy barrel on your carbine and I don't believe such a barrel is necessary.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 2:59:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 3:01:46 PM EDT by -Absolut-]
shot these today, sitting, with my rifle (16" Bushmaster) resting on my range bag, using iron's 25 yards[url]http://people.clemson.edu/~andersh/pics/target10-15.jpg[/url] 50 yards [url]http://people.clemson.edu/~andersh/pics/target2%2010-15.jpg[/url] 100 yards [url]http://people.clemson.edu/~andersh/pics/target3%2010-15.jpg[/url] those are regular paper sized targets
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 4:12:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 4:13:53 PM EDT by IceMan_1]
Run2The9, ck out jerryboy's J&T 16"Bull kit, in the industry forum, 300 yrd 3 shot group's as small as a dime,all day! Set the forum to last 30 days to see it,pic's of gun and groups.Very impressive! under J&T's forum.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 4:31:44 PM EDT
2" groups is about right out of my Colt M4 A3. You have to remember that this is a battle rifle, not a sniper rifle.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:07:38 PM EDT
While it is true I have a standard Bushmaster M4 barrel and shot sub moa out to 300 yards (just barely sub moa, but sub moa none-the-less), this is not from a standard M4 rifle. It has some serious mods done to it, not the least of which is a SIR free floating rail system, a TA31 ACOG a Vortex flash suppressor (which is reported to axctually increase accuracy) and a JP Ent. single stage trigger that is tuned down to less than three pounds. I also have never achieved sub-moa with mil spec ammo. While I am lucky that the ammo I have used is not terribly expensive (Winchester 45gr Value Pak ammo at $12 per 40 rounds) it does show that the rifle is capable of excellent accuracy. An off the shelf stock Bushmaster should not be expected to produce such groups. A non-free float barrel, stock (i.e. heavy) trigger, and lack of optics will all likely prevent the shooter from obtaining the accuracy the rifle itself is inherantly capable of. Do everything right using a standard rifle with standard sights and standard ammo and you can expect standard accuracy. I would agree with everyone here that 1 to 2 moa is pretty standard. Do everything right and intorduce improved equipment and ammo into the mix and expect improved accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:20:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 5:33:22 PM EDT by PROVO]
I have a 16" 1in 9,f/f-f/t with a 4*acog.On a good day useing winny super-X 55g,my daughter and i shoot 1.75-21/2" at 300 fairly often.I can take a cinder block apart from the top down at 300 useing 3131a or p.m.p.This is on a sand bag bench rest.And i honestly do not consider my self a very good shot. Because ican not do that every time.Plus as new arguy said."I have some serious mods to mine"
Top Top