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Posted: 1/11/2005 7:23:39 PM EDT
From an article posted on DEBKA.com reporting on the situation with Syria

In this regard, DEBKAfile’s military sources note four important points:
1. 1. It will not take place before President Bush is sworn in for his second term on January 20 or Iraq’s general election ten days later.
2. The Americans will not start out with a large-scale, orderly military offensive, but rather short in-and-out forays; small US and Iraqi special forces units will cross the border and raid bases housing Iraqi guerrillas or buses carrying them to the border. If these brief raids are ineffective, the Americans will upscale the action.
3. The Allawi government will formally request the United States to consign joint Iraqi-US forces for action against Syrian targets, so placing the US operation under the Baghdad government’s aegis. In other words, Iraq will be at war with Syria without issuing a formal declaration.
4. It is fully appreciated in Washington, Baghdad and Jerusalem that intense American military warfare against Syria could provoke a Hizballah backlash against Israel.


(First of all, I found it interesting that DEBKA states that Allawi will be in charge of the Iraqi Government AFTER the January 30 elections, but that's for another discussion)

Israel believes that Syria’s option to “activate” Hizballah will widen the war to Israeli targets in lieu of American or Iraqi.
Some people scoffed at this report but,
Israel is cancelling their contracts with Winchester to supply  M193 which may coincide with the switch over by The IDF (and possibly all the activated US Army National Guard units serving in the Iraqi theater) from 1/12 twist barrels to 1/7.
Could it be that all future Israeli 5.56 ammunition will be M855 ala Federal’s Lake City plant switch over  to M855 production exclusively with no plan to resume production of M193.
Side note: It is also believed that Bushmaster received a “GOVERNMENT” contract for 20" 1/7 barrels for the M16 series rifle.

Goodbye M193.................................

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:00:25 PM EDT
Lake City is the only 5.56mm plant today.  Cannot another plant open elsewhere tomorrow?
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:57:00 PM EDT
How long would it take to either re-tool an existing factory or build a new one to produce more military ammo.  I really do not think that one plant is going to get us thru the next few years.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 9:03:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 1:19:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:50:06 AM EDT
My point is,
at some point in time the US military will  standardized on barrel twist (1/7) and the 55 gr M193 round will be declared obsolete. All production of M193 will cease and only M855, 62 gr ammo will be produced for the Military. Hence no more M193 ammo for us peons.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:19:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:22:09 AM EDT
No M193 for us peons? No big deal, just roll your own. Depending on the factories to keep you supplied with decent spec ammo, ( not the PD crap ) is foolish. Like what is going on right now with the scarcity of XM-193, Q3131A, ect. All it takes is a war on a couple of fronts, and mass training of reserve forces stateside to put the brakes on civilian ammo production. It is a similar scenario to WWII, when automobile production for civilians was halted to concentrate on the war effort.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:46:08 AM EDT

How close is the Black Hills 55gr FMJ remanufactured to XM193 (20rd box) specs?

Right now I would like a replacement round that will not require rezeroing my rifles back and forth all the time.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:47:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
What is this DEBKA.com that everyone is talking about today and why should I trust what they say?





DEBKA...............Isreali News
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:15:50 AM EDT
I posed much the same question (but without all the political intrigue) in this thread but it didnt get much traction....

Then I see these very interesting facts above

Could it be that all future Israeli 5.56 ammunition will be M855 ala Federal’s Lake City plant switch over to M855 production exclusively with no plan to resume production of M193.

and

It's the best-selling ammo on the civilian rifle market. They'll make it whenever they can.
The reason for the short supply right now is because neither plant has excess capacity to make ANYTHING for the civilian market. So the M193 vs M855 issue is moot.



So, I gotta ask a couple questions:
Why don't other manufacturers (Remington?) jump in and make Lake City quality M193?
How does Federal American Eagle 55gr 223 compare to M193?  I see it listed on the Ammo_PriceList, but little mention is made of it in the Ammo Oracle.


Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:41:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
What is this DEBKA.com that everyone is talking about today and why should I trust what they say?



Debka= Rumors-as-fact Israeli news

They publish stuff that can't possibly be verified.  Just like the National Enquirer. or The Spotlight.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:19:21 AM EDT
Aguila lists 55 grain .223 ammo but I've never seen it available.  Supposedly they load ammunition for several nations military forces.  Maybe another source of affordable .223/5.56 if we ask for it enough?

http://www.aguilaammo.com/centerfire.htm
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:24:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 1:02:26 PM EDT
When M193 retails for $0.17 per round, the margins are probably not terrific.  Especially when you can sell some sucker 300 RUM rounds for $2 each.

It would be somewhat risky to invest money to increase capacity, because you never know when a few hundred million rounds of surplus will show up and flood the market.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 1:26:14 PM EDT
The Military should be going back to a 1/12" with M193 instead of down this foolish heavier round road.

If you want a fucking 147 gr bullet, get a .308, you fucking mullets!
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 2:11:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 2:30:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 2:33:19 PM EDT by gregw45]

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
How close is the Black Hills 55gr FMJ remanufactured to XM193 (20rd box) specs?

Right now I would like a replacement round that will not require rezeroing my rifles back and forth all the time.



BH 55gr reman. is loaded for maximum accuracy. It's slower than XM193.

At 225yds, the whited out area is where 55gr BH struck with the rear sight set at 8/3 plus 2. You will need to rezero. Without having an A2 rear sight in front of me, I figure a 6MOA difference between the two.


For (non)fragmentation info see www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=215996
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 2:56:03 PM EDT

M193 does it have a future?


Sure it does.

a bright one at that
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 4:45:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 4:45:57 AM EDT by Nate1]
As long as there is demand for a product or service, someone will generate a supply...
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:00:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nate1:
As long as there is demand for a product or service, someone will generate a supply...



Yeah.  But if it's not made at the Lake City Plant, it doesn't have magical powers!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:14:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Nate1:
As long as there is demand for a product or service, someone will generate a supply...



Yeah.  But if it's not made at the Lake City Plant, it doesn't have magical powers!



I frankly don't care WHERE its made... as long as it is M193 spec (not just 5.56 NATO).

So, what IS the next best thing to M193 (assuming Fed XM193 and Win Q3131A are gone for now)????
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:11:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kensteele:
Lake City is the only 5.56mm plant today.



Isn't Olin currently under contract by the Army for M855 production at their East Alton, IL plant?  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:45:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 11:46:42 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
The 2004 NDIA Small Arms Symposium had a lot of discussion of the problem with small arms ammo production base disappearing. They had a chart showing how they had gone from around 18 small arms ammo plants in WWII down to 1 in 2004.

The good news is that almost all of the solutions they recommended involved supporting the civilian/commercial industry by establishing liasons and occasional contracts to maintain surge capacity. At the same time, they also proposed allowing commercial enterprises to lease government ordnance facilities for a set-term provided they agree to maintain a certain production capacity as terms of the lease. During low-government need the facilities could sell excess production commercially.

They also specifically mentioned gun control as a problem that was eroding the small arms production base in the U.S.

By the way, Debka is hardly a reliable source for anything. Just follow them for a year or so and you'll figure that out pretty quick.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:43:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 12:44:08 PM EDT by colt100]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By markm:
The Military should be going back to a 1/12" with M193 instead of down this foolish heavier round road.

If you want a fucking 147 gr bullet, get a .308, you fucking mullets!




You're on crack.




+1

Besides, twist rate doesn't effect how the bullet performs on a live target.  The twist rate only reflects how the bullet fired out of it will be stabilized.  All bullets (FMJ) will "tumble" when they strike a denser medium (like a person).  The 1/12 won't help a bullet do this.  It would only help the heavier/longer projectiles to become less stable in flight, rendering them less accurate.

I don't care if you have a 50 BMG.  If you can't hit anything with it, it is worthless.  I would rather have a 22 long rifle that I can shoot a bad guy everytime then a 30-06 that I miss every shot with.

How about asking for a more effective bullet be issued to our troops?  Something like an 75 gr OTM?

edited because I can't spell
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