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Posted: 10/29/2006 5:08:52 AM EST
Hey guys, I'm really itching for a 20" AR that comes as close as possible to being a civilian semi-auto M16A2. Does anyone have a suggestion of where to start? I'd like to have it all Colt if possible. I know they are priced pretty high compared to all the others, but they do hold their value, right? I think I've read that the R6550 is pretty close, but very rare and expensive. I found a website called autoweapons.com that has real M16A2 uppers and parts kits, but I'd need to find a lower that would match it. There are just too many variants! Pin sizes, slabsides, mag fences, sear blocks, etc. It makes my head spin! Any advice or suggestions?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 5:15:18 AM EST
K-so,
That you?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 5:38:40 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
K-so,
That you?


No, my name is Richard. I hope my over eager, noobish first post doesn't remind you of someone negative!
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 5:50:05 AM EST
My RRA A2 is spot on in each way EXCEPT for the HBAR. I was a noob and didn't realize that when i ordered it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 5:59:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By burp-43:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
K-so,
That you?


No, my name is Richard. I hope my over eager, noobish first post doesn't remind you of someone negative!


Nahhh. I was just talking to a guy from another board that wanted to build an A2.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 11:40:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By wayupnorth:
My RRA A2 is spot on in each way EXCEPT for the HBAR. I was a noob and didn't realize that when i ordered it.


Which, unfortunately, turns a svelte 7lb rifle into a muzzle heavy 8lb one. I had the same problem, and had the barrel turned to government profile, and they made the silly muzzle brake go away at the same time. I am not aware of anyone making new rifles with the govt profile, but then I don't know everything.
Moon
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 11:47:24 AM EST
get your 20" gvt upper from Paul at Bravo Co. I have one of the older "MOS" ones, and it's awesome.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 12:00:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 9:10:54 PM EST by John44]
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 1:09:57 PM EST
Yup, I did exactly what John44 suggests. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in an AR platform. I got the 1/7 twist.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 1:39:59 PM EST
I built mine on a basically new take-off upper from a gov't M16A2. There are still some around here and there, I'm sure someone here can chime in on that.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 2:49:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 2:49:58 PM EST by SD307]

Originally Posted By seahorse:
Yup, I did exactly what John44 suggests. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in an AR platform. I got the 1/7 twist.



why the 1/7?? The military uses 1/9 on 20 in

I agree with John44 BTW
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 2:52:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 2:54:52 PM EST by John44]

Originally Posted By SD307:

Originally Posted By seahorse:
Yup, I did exactly what John44 suggests. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in an AR platform. I got the 1/7 twist.



why the 1/7?? The military uses 1/9 on 20 in

I agree with John44 BTW

What? Who told you that? They use 1/7. There really no reason not to get the 1/7, it shoots 55gr just fine.
ETA: 55gr FMJ is the only thing I shoot out of my Bushy 14.5 1/7.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 3:08:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 7:42:49 PM EST by JD42]
Welcome. Check out the EE you can find some good deals. Just need a local dealer to accept rifle. Colt A2 1/7 is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Go with the gov. profile. A good used one will be a little less. Also check out the CMMG very high quality. And even their A2's have M4 feed ramps. Good luck and have fun. Save a little for ammo and lots of mag's
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 3:39:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By SD307:

Originally Posted By seahorse:
Yup, I did exactly what John44 suggests. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in an AR platform. I got the 1/7 twist.



why the 1/7?? The military uses 1/9 on 20 in

I agree with John44 BTW


Link Posted: 10/29/2006 3:47:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By SD307:

Originally Posted By seahorse:
Yup, I did exactly what John44 suggests. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in an AR platform. I got the 1/7 twist.



why the 1/7?? The military uses 1/9 on 20 in

I agree with John44 BTW


So I can shoot the longer 75-77gr. bullets. I'm not hung up on it being exact or it would have been a Colt.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:04:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 4:04:56 PM EST by Jimbo45]

why the 1/7?? The military uses 1/9 on 20 in

I agree with John44 BTW

Every one I had in the Army was 1/7". I have a Bushy A2 clone as the one linked to above. Get it, you'll love it. Stay away from HBAR's unless you want a heavy, long range, high powered optic laden target gun.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:19:28 PM EST
take a look at cmmg. they manufacture an A2 that is about as close to milspec as about any other rifle. plus some of the best customer service in the business. it's all i'll buy anymore....
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 5:58:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 5:58:34 PM EST by ALPHAGHOST]
if you want it as close to a -16, then opt for the colt; you might be a little harder pressed to find one, and if you do, expect to pay up to $200+ more for one over another AR brand--if you want something, then expect to pay for it...

dont know anything about autoweapons.com

colts do tend to hold thier value better; but, why would it matter if you intend to keep it, right?

if you might get rid of it, then opt for another brand or build your own

US mil uses 1-7 for thier 20in ARs; CMMG, bushy, and a few others sell these spec bbls
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 6:22:03 PM EST
CDNN Has Colt M16A2 uppers. Only a current FN would be more authentic.

Bravo Co, CMMG, RRA & Bushmaster have never had a M16A2 contract.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 7:24:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 7:27:03 PM EST by burp-43]
Thanks for all the great info guys! The Bushmaster looks great, and it's the easy way to go, but I've got my heart set on Colt...at least for now. If I were to get a Colt M16A2 upper, what would be the best way to get a Colt Lower to go with it? Buy a complete rifle and just use the lower? What Colt years/models are proper for an A2, and will mate up with a M16A2 upper?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 8:24:29 PM EST
First stay away from Colt you don't need the Kool-Aid, the US Millitary manufacturor for the M-16A2 is FN NOT, I REPEAT NOT Colt!, Colt does the M-4, NOT the A2, so colt would not be more correct. Also don't buy into the nonsense about Colt being the only quality brand, there not, maybe 20 years ago, but not anymore, actually you could argue that some are better. Colt is the Firearms equivalent to Intel, and there Pentium Proccessors, it's a big name, and there very popular, but that name is all your paying for an AMD Athlon 64 would be much cheaper, and better than there Pentium 4, you could make the same analogy with Niki shoes, it's the "cool" thing to have, but are they any better then Rebock, or New Balence? No they just cost more because your paying for the name, the "prestige", the "privilige" to own some. It's the same with Colt your paying for the name thats all. Colt gets most of there parts includeing there forgings used for milling the upper, and lower recievers, from the same subcontractors everyone else uses, theres are no better you just get to pay about $300-$400 more for the "privilige" of saying but....but....it's a COLT! In addition Colt has a strong anti-civilian policy, and anti-gun policy, as evidence of this the rifles they sell to the government (Again the M-4 NOT the A2) are about $495, the exact same rifles in semi auto will cost you at least $1,000, but then it still really wouldn't be the same because Colt despite the fact that the ban is over still only sells there civilian rifles in Neutered "post-ban" configuration with the bayonet lug ground off, and an unthreaded muzzle, infact they began to do this BEFORE the ban even took place completly volentarily. Ofcourse you can still get them in the politicly incorrect form but there from Colts Police Line, NOT there civilian line, and they have a policy forbidding there dealers from selling these models to civilians, fortunetly though most choose to ignore them thats why you can find these, but never the less the policy is in place. Then even if you do get your over priced Police rifle it's STILL not right Colt has also ground off the selector stops to smooth oval shapes, the pin holes for the fire control group are oversize (they did this to both ensure that you must buy only proprietary Colt parts at a heavy markup, and to make it harder to use LEGAL Drop In Auto Sears) which don't look right on a clone rifle eighther, and untill maybe a year or two ago they did the same thing with the take down pins, thus the distinction between small hole (correct), and large hole (incorrect), in addition except for very early rifle like the SP-1 Colt pinned in a Sear block to prevent the instalation of Legaly owned Lightning links and Drop In Auto Sears, now they don't even mill that area out completely. So to sum up stay away from Colt unless you just HAVE to have the Kool-Aid.

Now as for building a correct M-16A2 clone it's pretty easy in that virtually all the parts on the market today are correct for the M-16A2, you need a standard lower, pistol grip, fixed stock, handgaurds, flash suppressor, and normal A2 upper, the only issue is getting the barrel, that is tricky you need a 1/7 twist chrome lined, and chambered, government profile barrel, unfortunetly very few companys make those, most make 1/9 HBAR's, which may or may not have chrome lined bores or chambers, they do this ostensivly because that twist rate will allow a wider selection of ammo from the light 40, and 45 grain varmint loads up to about 62 grains, but at the cost of 69 grain and higher loads, although you have about a 50/50 chance of being able to use 69 grain loads, but no more than that, and the heavy barrel is supposed to make it "more accurite", but in reality it's because 1/9 has become the industry standard somehow, and there to lazy, and or cheap to retool, and makeing all there barrels HBAR's saves a machineing step, and is thus cheaper, to make it worse most AR shooters eigher don't know the difference or fall into the "cool gun" crowd who don't care what it is, they only want it because it's "cool", they don't care what the twist rate or anything else is, as long as it looks cool, and will usualy misidentify the weapon as an M-16. Most of the remainder don't care, and insist that it's fine, that leaves a small portion who actually want the correct 1/7 twist rate, and profile, so theres not much incentive for the industry to offer any, as a result there usualy only limited runs or millitary over runs, and you have to go out of your way to find them, when I built my rifle in 2004 it took me over a year of searching to find one, I found it on a chance discovery at a gunshow, and had to pay about a hundred dollar premium for it, this was before the few online dealers already mentioned started offering them, that staarted just after I found one, it figures. Although Bushmaster did have them then, as now it was a special order item, and I was holding off till the last minute before I went that route, trying to find them in stock someware.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 9:01:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Small_Arms_Collector:
First stay away from Colt you don't need the Kool-Aid, the US Millitary manufacturor for the M-16A2 is FN NOT, I REPEAT NOT Colt!, Colt does the M-4, NOT the A2, so colt would not be more correct. Also don't buy into the nonsense about Colt being the only quality brand, there not, maybe 20 years ago, but not anymore, actually you could argue that some are better. Colt is the Firearms equivalent to Intel, and there Pentium Proccessors, it's a big name, and there very popular, but that name is all your paying for an AMD Athlon 64 would be much cheaper, and better than there Pentium 4, you could make the same analogy with Niki shoes, it's the "cool" thing to have, but are they any better then Rebock, or New Balence? No they just cost more because your paying for the name, the "prestige", the "privilige" to own some. It's the same with Colt your paying for the name thats all. Colt gets most of there parts includeing there forgings used for milling the upper, and lower recievers, from the same subcontractors everyone else uses, theres are no better you just get to pay about $300-$400 more for the "privilige" of saying but....but....it's a COLT! In addition Colt has a strong anti-civilian policy, and anti-gun policy, as evidence of this the rifles they sell to the government (Again the M-4 NOT the A2) are about $495, the exact same rifles in semi auto will cost you at least $1,000, but then it still really wouldn't be the same because Colt despite the fact that the ban is over still only sells there civilian rifles in Neutered "post-ban" configuration with the bayonet lug ground off, and an unthreaded muzzle, infact they began to do this BEFORE the ban even took place completly volentarily. Ofcourse you can still get them in the politicly incorrect form but there from Colts Police Line, NOT there civilian line, and they have a policy forbidding there dealers from selling these models to civilians, fortunetly though most choose to ignore them thats why you can find these, but never the less the policy is in place. Then even if you do get your over priced Police rifle it's STILL not right Colt has also ground off the selector stops to smooth oval shapes, the pin holes for the fire control group are oversize (they did this to both ensure that you must buy only proprietary Colt parts at a heavy markup, and to make it harder to use LEGAL Drop In Auto Sears) which don't look right on a clone rifle eighther, and untill maybe a year or two ago they did the same thing with the take down pins, thus the distinction between small hole (correct), and large hole (incorrect), in addition except for very early rifle like the SP-1 Colt pinned in a Sear block to prevent the instalation of Legaly owned Lightning links and Drop In Auto Sears, now they don't even mill that area out completely. So to sum up stay away from Colt unless you just HAVE to have the Kool-Aid.

Now as for building a correct M-16A2 clone it's pretty easy in that virtually all the parts on the market today are correct for the M-16A2, you need a standard lower, pistol grip, fixed stock, handgaurds, flash suppressor, and normal A2 upper, the only issue is getting the barrel, that is tricky you need a 1/7 twist chrome lined, and chambered, government profile barrel, unfortunetly very few companys make those, most make 1/9 HBAR's, which may or may not have chrome lined bores or chambers, they do this ostensivly because that twist rate will allow a wider selection of ammo from the light 40, and 45 grain varmint loads up to about 62 grains, but at the cost of 69 grain and higher loads, although you have about a 50/50 chance of being able to use 69 grain loads, but no more than that, and the heavy barrel is supposed to make it "more accurite", but in reality it's because 1/9 has become the industry standard somehow, and there to lazy, and or cheap to retool, and makeing all there barrels HBAR's saves a machineing step, and is thus cheaper, to make it worse most AR shooters eigher don't know the difference or fall into the "cool gun" crowd who don't care what it is, they only want it because it's "cool", they don't care what the twist rate or anything else is, as long as it looks cool, and will usualy misidentify the weapon as an M-16. Most of the remainder don't care, and insist that it's fine, that leaves a small portion who actually want the correct 1/7 twist rate, and profile, so theres not much incentive for the industry to offer any, as a result there usualy only limited runs or millitary over runs, and you have to go out of your way to find them, when I built my rifle in 2004 it took me over a year of searching to find one, I found it on a chance discovery at a gunshow, and had to pay about a hundred dollar premium for it, this was before the few online dealers already mentioned started offering them, that staarted just after I found one, it figures. Although Bushmaster did have them then, as now it was a special order item, and I was holding off till the last minute before I went that route, trying to find them in stock someware.

Dude lay off the Red Bull!
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 9:02:55 PM EST
PK has a bushmaster 20" a2 gov profile complete upper for $370.00
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 9:50:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Small_Arms_Collector:
First stay away from Colt you don't need the Kool-Aid, the US Millitary manufacturor for the M-16A2 is FN NOT, I REPEAT NOT Colt!, Colt does the M-4, NOT the A2, so colt would not be more correct.


Colt has produced M16A2's for the US Military in the past. so its more correct than anything other than an FN which is unavailable.

You would think a "small arms collector" would know that.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:45:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 10:46:08 PM EST by ch139]
burp-43, I’d always wanted an A2 too. When the ban lifted I had a new Bushmaster A2 lower in hand and just ordered an A2 upper from them with the 20-inch A2 profile barrel. I did order it with a 1/9 barrel as I wanted something as "generic" as possible, just for killin tin cans in the mud and such. It’s been relegated to beater status now, but it was inexpensive, works and shoots great. Not sure, but it may be getting used more than my other arfs. Being a Bushmaster and having a 1/9 twist it’s not authentic, but I guess my Colts aren’t anymore either according to the above treatise.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:53:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Small_Arms_Collector:
First stay away from Colt you don't need the Kool-Aid, the US Millitary manufacturor for the M-16A2 is FN NOT, I REPEAT NOT Colt!, Colt does the M-4, NOT the A2, so colt would not be more correct. Also don't buy into the nonsense about Colt being the only quality brand, there not, maybe 20 years ago, but not anymore, actually you could argue that some are better. Colt is the Firearms equivalent to Intel, and there Pentium Proccessors, it's a big name, and there very popular, but that name is all your paying for.


That's just your opinion. Colts cost more because of extra manufacturing steps and extensive QC that none of the other brands have. It might not be important to you and many others, but there are some that think differently and are willing to pay for that extra reassurance that they are getting a quality product. I can't see anything wrong with that and you are certainly in no position to judge other peoples decisions.

I don't own Colts myself, but that has more to do with availability than anything else.

That said, I'm building an M16A2 clone gun from mostly Bushmaster parts. I have a 20" 1/7 twist gov't profile barrel on order and both the upper and lower receiver will be Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 4:06:05 AM EST
Geez, there's nothing wrong with buying a Colt. Yes, there more expensive but it's still a great AR. It really peeves me that you can't mention Colt with out being accused of "drinking the Kool-Aid".

If you want it to be as close to a real A2 get a barrel with 1/7 twist. I would look at CMMG among others. Check out the EE you may find a used Colt for a reasonable price.
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