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Posted: 6/15/2009 10:12:43 PM EST
I was trying to talk my roommate into building an AR today and I mentioned that he can get a custom lower made with any roll mark he wants. I think its from Fidelis? Anyways, I said that he could even get one without a rollmark, and he asks me if he can get one completely clean. No rollmark, caliber or serial. I told him I didn't know because I wasn't sure if it was legal to have a lower without a s#. So my question...is it legal? I would imagine you would have to have something engraved to identify the lower, but I have seen a few pictures floating around where the lowers have zero markings on them.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 10:15:34 PM EST
I would like to know this also. There are lowers on a different thread without a visible rollmark/serial number.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 10:19:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By dmhays:
I was trying to talk my roommate into building an AR today and I mentioned that he can get a custom lower made with any roll mark he wants. I think its from Fidelis? Anyways, I said that he could even get one without a rollmark, and he asks me if he can get one completely clean. No rollmark, caliber or serial. I told him I didn't know because I wasn't sure if it was legal to have a lower without a s#. So my question...is it legal? I would imagine you would have to have something engraved to identify the lower, but I have seen a few pictures floating around where the lowers have zero markings on them.

The only way you could have an AR lower receiver with no serial number is to make it yourself. You can get what's called an 80% lower, and then you do the final machining of the magazine well, FCG spaces, pin holes, et cetera. 80% lowers aren't required to be serialized, but you can't legally sell it to anyone.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 10:30:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By kcr121:

Originally Posted By dmhays:
I was trying to talk my roommate into building an AR today and I mentioned that he can get a custom lower made with any roll mark he wants. I think its from Fidelis? Anyways, I said that he could even get one without a rollmark, and he asks me if he can get one completely clean. No rollmark, caliber or serial. I told him I didn't know because I wasn't sure if it was legal to have a lower without a s#. So my question...is it legal? I would imagine you would have to have something engraved to identify the lower, but I have seen a few pictures floating around where the lowers have zero markings on them.

The only way you could have an AR lower receiver with no serial number is to make it yourself. You can get what's called an 80% lower, and then you do the final machining of the magazine well, FCG spaces, pin holes, et cetera. 80% lowers aren't required to be serialized, but you can't legally sell it to anyone.


Thanks for the info. I would take a vulcan before I would trust him or me with machining
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 1:12:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 1:17:50 AM EST by shrikefan]
Originally Posted By dmhays:
Originally Posted By kcr121:

Originally Posted By dmhays:
I was trying to talk my roommate into building an AR today and I mentioned that he can get a custom lower made with any roll mark he wants. I think its from Fidelis? Anyways, I said that he could even get one without a rollmark, and he asks me if he can get one completely clean. No rollmark, caliber or serial. I told him I didn't know because I wasn't sure if it was legal to have a lower without a s#. So my question...is it legal? I would imagine you would have to have something engraved to identify the lower, but I have seen a few pictures floating around where the lowers have zero markings on them.

The only way you could have an AR lower receiver with no serial number is to make it yourself. You can get what's called an 80% lower, and then you do the final machining of the magazine well, FCG spaces, pin holes, et cetera. 80% lowers aren't required to be serialized, but you can't legally sell it to anyone.Yes you can, but probably not easily through a dealer. If you can sell it legally FTF then it doesn't NEED a s/n.


Thanks for the info. I would take a vulcan before I would trust him or me with machining


Fixed.

ETA - Marking could help ward off some overzealous, uneducated LEO but are not required. There are plenty of long guns made before 1968 that do not have any s/n.
YMMV

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 4:23:25 AM EST
hide your dog
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 4:40:57 AM EST
This is an interesting topic to me that I was only recently made aware of. I'm sure there's a "loop-hole" in the law that does allow for using an incomplete lower to build your own rifle with no serial number. It's true that there are older guns that have no serial numbers... Pre 1968 if you will. But that was the year of some pretty substantial changes in gun laws. Most likely anything manufactured after 1968 is going to need to have a serial number if it's a patented design. It's also true that guys like Ron Barrett didn't serialize their prototype rifles but they were designed by him from the ground up. And I'm pretty sure that once he started production he was required to serialize his rifles. Not to keep track of how many he made... Because BATF required it. The AR15 style of rifle is a well established design and using that "loop-hole" to build one that's untraceable is just asking for trouble IMO. What if it gets stolen? Why would you even consider a Face-to-face sale of such a rifle? If you really want to build your own rifle... build your OWN rifle. Don't cheat!

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post by someone. Tell ya what... I don't care! I'd just as soon NOT associate with someone who doesn't agree with me on this.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:04:02 AM EST
Here you go. An Arfcom member build his own lower with pics.

No serial# Lower
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:07:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By oneshot_onekill:
This is an interesting topic to me that I was only recently made aware of. I'm sure there's a "loop-hole" in the law that does allow for using an incomplete lower to build your own rifle with no serial number. It's true that there are older guns that have no serial numbers... Pre 1968 if you will. But that was the year of some pretty substantial changes in gun laws. Most likely anything manufactured after 1968 is going to need to have a serial number if it's a patented design. It's also true that guys like Ron Barrett didn't serialize their prototype rifles but they were designed by him from the ground up. And I'm pretty sure that once he started production he was required to serialize his rifles. Not to keep track of how many he made... Because BATF required it. The AR15 style of rifle is a well established design and using that "loop-hole" to build one that's untraceable is just asking for trouble IMO. What if it gets stolen? Why would you even consider a Face-to-face sale of such a rifle? If you really want to build your own rifle... build your OWN rifle. Don't cheat!

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post by someone. Tell ya what... I don't care! I'd just as soon NOT associate with someone who doesn't agree with me on this.


Don't buy an 80% lower built by some one else, it may be out-of-spec. Do it yourself, and stay legal.

Click here for website

Standard Forged Receiver


Ceramic metal matrix receiver


Titanium receiver


Bronze receiver


Jigs, drill bits, taps.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:31:53 AM EST
Another option to consider; is there any law/reg that states how big and where to place the Ser #? Common sense would say as long as you can read it with the naked eye and while the weapon is assembled, it would be legal, BUT the law may say something else than what I assume, so check. Ask the custom shop if they can do just a Ser # small in an inconspicuous spot of your choosing. On the roof of the trigger opening, next to the trigger is a good spot you rarely look at on the weapon, but it is in plain view with the weapon fully assembled and large enough to engrave a legible serial number.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:41:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By USMC-Helo:
Another option to consider; is there any law/reg that states how big and where to place the Ser #? Common sense would say as long as you can read it with the naked eye and while the weapon is assembled, it would be legal, BUT the law may say something else than what I assume, so check. Ask the custom shop if they can do just a Ser # small in an inconspicuous spot of your choosing. On the roof of the trigger opening, next to the trigger is a good spot you rarely look at on the weapon, but it is in plain view with the weapon fully assembled and large enough to engrave a legible serial number.


Why? If it has a s/n, regardless of where it is it'll have to go through an FFL. If the OP is concerned with aesthetics of seeing a roll mark and/or s/n, just buy a cool looking receiver like Anvil, noveske, Magpul (depending on your wallet). If you're trying to side step the law, good luck!
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:57:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By USMC-Helo:
Another option to consider; is there any law/reg that states how big and where to place the Ser #? Common sense would say as long as you can read it with the naked eye and while the weapon is assembled, it would be legal, BUT the law may say something else than what I assume, so check. Ask the custom shop if they can do just a Ser # small in an inconspicuous spot of your choosing. On the roof of the trigger opening, next to the trigger is a good spot you rarely look at on the weapon, but it is in plain view with the weapon fully assembled and large enough to engrave a legible serial number.


1/16" for NFA - I'm sure title 1 is probably the same. YMMV
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:02:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:58:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By dmhays:
Originally Posted By kcr121:

Originally Posted By dmhays:
I was trying to talk my roommate into building an AR today and I mentioned that he can get a custom lower made with any roll mark he wants. I think its from Fidelis? Anyways, I said that he could even get one without a rollmark, and he asks me if he can get one completely clean. No rollmark, caliber or serial. I told him I didn't know because I wasn't sure if it was legal to have a lower without a s#. So my question...is it legal? I would imagine you would have to have something engraved to identify the lower, but I have seen a few pictures floating around where the lowers have zero markings on them.

The only way you could have an AR lower receiver with no serial number is to make it yourself. You can get what's called an 80% lower, and then you do the final machining of the magazine well, FCG spaces, pin holes, et cetera. 80% lowers aren't required to be serialized, but you can't legally sell it to anyone.


Thanks for the info. I would take a vulcan before I would trust him or me with machining
don't be so sure. have a look over at www.cncguns.com at their jig/s. you will end up paying more for the lower but you will have what you want - a clean lower w/ no markings on it.

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