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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/5/2006 4:49:39 AM EDT
I was looking to build up my first AR, for use in 3-gun fashion. I really like the JP Rifles Lowers/Uppers, and I think that I am going to try to fit a JP low mass operating system/gas block and barrel into my build (or more appropriatly into my budget).

However, I need to save money on the lower, since the upper built that way is going to kill my budget.

I was wondering if anyone can point me towards other good quality lowers that would work well for my uses, the main feature of the JP that I like is the integral extended magazine well.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:06:47 AM EDT
I'd just get a Stag lower (or something similar) and add an Arredondo mag well later if you feel it would help you.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:33:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 6:14:27 AM EDT by birdo]
Is there a good reason to go with those 'competition' uppers that don't have the dust covers, forward assists and such?

Thanks for the suggestion by the way.

edit: I meant uppers, not enough coffee
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:03:12 AM EDT
I can't think of any advantage, they look different and maybe have better quality control? If you use a bolt carrier that doesn't have forward assist you wouldn't have to buy a plug. Naw I really don't see an advantage unless someone just likes them.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:13:10 AM EDT
Thanks again stiles. I am reading that the JP bolt carriers do not have serrations for the forward assist, so I suppose it would make sense to get an upper without that port. Actually his site is recommending the DPMS high and low rider series, I will have to see what they cost.

I really hate compromising on quality, but I just can't afford to buy a full competition rifle and the correct optics all at the same time. I guess that's the name of the game though. Man those ACOGS and similar scopes are expensive, I used to think that getting a nice leupold for my hunting rifles was bad until I got into this game.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:23:46 AM EDT
Any decent quality lower is fine for 3Gun use.

Realize that when you start to go with lower-mass bolt carriers, magazine function and cleanliness can be more critical to reliable operation.

The lack of dust cover on a competition rifle is a non-issue because once the buzzer goes off and you make the first shot, it's open anyway.

My JP CTR-02 was 100% reliable at the ITRC in 2004. The JP CTR-02 receivers are works of art.

That said, my 17" MSTN on an ancient Eagle lower does everything my CTR did, so I got rid of the JP gun.



Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:32:39 AM EDT
Thanks, I actually picked up that Matt Burkett video on the AR, so that I had some idea of what people are using in competition, and they talked extensivly about the reliability issues. I'm an incredibly anal person about maintaining my firearms, and I don't think that I will mind the tuning time necessary to get it running right.

I gave DPMS a call, and the upper w/o the forward assist port and such is only around $125, so that's not too bad at all. That will give me some leeway in the budget to procure some more high quality critical parts such as the barrel and gas block from jp, as well as the low mass carrier and such.

It's lookin like this might just come together in time for late summer shooting! I'm excited now.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:36:34 AM EDT
Any decient upper or lower is fine for 3 gun.
All the other stuff is for make pretty, if you want for for it, go for it.
Do you need it, I doubt it.

Good luck and have fun.
Bill

p.s. I've been shooting 3 gun since 1988, Bushy AR Shorty A3 w/ Aimpoint on a LaRue mount and a JP trigger. Works every time.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:39:36 AM EDT
There is no reason to get an upper WITHOUT the dust cover. Just use any regular flat-top upper receiver.

Recommendations:
* 17-18" light/mid-weight barrel, 1:7 or 1:8 if you ever want to shoot 75-77gr bullets, otherwise 1:9
* rifle-length gas system (milder recoiling)
* rifle-length float tube (for bracing on barricades)
* any decent gas block.. PRI, LaRue, MSTN. I use both pri and larue because they weigh less

If you are shooting Limited (irons), get a fixed FSB, or use the JP picatinny gas block.

Reliability is only an issue with the severely lightened carriers. The Young Machine (sold by MSTN) LW carrier is no less reliable than a regular carrier. The old JP aluminum bolt carriers were very finicky. The new SS LW ones from JP are supposed to be better.

If you are tight on funds, skip the LW parts for now.

-z
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:45:22 PM EDT
Thanks all, this gives me a good place to start.

Because of the fact that the DPMS lowpro upper is actually much less expensive than the normal uppers with dust covers and forward assist ports, that's the direction I will probably go there.

I was not aware of the other options for lightened carriers and gas blocks, I will check into the pricing on those.

I will probably go with whatever lower I can find from Oly/Stag/DPMS/Rock River that will fit my needs. I think the only thing I will want that's not normal is a 2 stage trigger. I am not used to single stage ones.

Thanks again, good info!
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:51:38 PM EDT
I would suggest a lower from Mega Machine Carlo at http://www.carricozarmory.com/ has pretty good prices. I have a Dalphon marked lower that was made by Mega Machine and I like it fine.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:57:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FZ1Steve:
I would suggest a lower from Mega Machine Carlo at http://www.carricozarmory.com/ has pretty good prices. I have a Dalphon marked lower that was made by Mega Machine and I like it fine.



Wow no kidding, good prices. Thanks for the tip.

I want a collapsable M4 style stock, should I stay away from the plastic ones? Are the aluminums the way to go for 3gun, or doesn't it matter?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:27:08 PM EDT
Plastic is the way to go. It's lighter and the milspec ones rattle less than the metal ones.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:59:48 PM EDT
Ok, that makes sense.

Thanks, you guys knocked out just about all my questions in one day.

What a resource this place is.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:56:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By birdo:
Ok, that makes sense.
Thanks, you guys knocked out just about all my questions in one day.
What a resource this place is.



Birdo, I'm not sure where in IN you are, but you should post in the Indiana section of the "Hometown" tab above. Indiana There are LOTS of guys here who shoot 3 Gun, and they were VERY helpful to me, some even taking the time to email me with additional info and invite me to a 3 gun match here :
Atlanta Conservation Club If you bring your own ammo, they'll more than likely lend you a weapon.

One of the guys who shoots there has a gun shop in Sheridan, IN. Not sure if that's close but worth a phone call at least. I'll flip you a quick email with his info. If you come to a match, he'll bring equipment for you to see or buy. I just bought a sling and that mag well mentioned above from him.

Also, check out the Competition forum under the "General" tab above Competition forum There are some 3 gunners that hang out there as well.

My 2 cents: if you already have a carbine, almost any shotgun and a pistol, just show up (early) and shoot. It's all about the fun. The JP rifles ARE superb, but an awful lot of money for runnin' and gunnin' when you're just starting out. While that are surely very accurate, more points will be lost fumbling and reloading when you're new, like me. Save the money, build or buy a pretty basic carbine and spend the rest on ammo for practice.

That's a pretty good DVD, I'm familiar with it. You might also want to get the one for shotguns. I've hunted my whole life, but this is a different deal all together. It really taught me some basic differences in shooting style hunting vs 3 Gunning and, like the AR video in that series, gives you some good drills as well.

One last thing. If you shoot with an Optic, you'll shoot in a "higher" class. You may want to build a flat-top witha "normal" front sight and get a BUIS or an LMT rear sight and shoot irons for awhile.

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 12:23:30 AM EDT
The only rifles for me in 3-Gun:

JP Enterprises
DPMS
Cavalary Arms

Why? They support 3-Gun, USPSA/IPSC and IMGA. Period. I support those that support my sports.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 2:24:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:47:56 AM EDT
Be aware that there are a LOT more rifle mfgrs/builders that support 3Gun matches..

Springfield Armory
Armalite
MSTN
DSA
Sabre Defense
Ameetec


Acog and Trijicons are or heavy duty operator users and wannabes,

The TA11 ACOG and Accupoint are two of the most popular and "winningest" optics used for Tactical/Modified class 3Gun.

-z
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:59:27 AM EDT
Based on the suggestions from some members, I decided to just get a 'stock' type of upper with basic irons for my first one, and then I can build up another one later, with a low mass system if I want it. That way I will be able to compete in multiple classes of events, as well as saving the money on the initial upper.

I am willing to bet that I will end up owning 20 of these addictive things in 10 years anyways.

If my career change goes according to plan, possibly own some for work too.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:32:37 AM EDT

Based on the suggestions from some members, I decided to just get a 'stock' type of upper with basic irons for my first one, and then I can build up another one later, with a low mass system if I want it.


Superb conculsion!
You will be much better off getting a basic reliable rifle and spending your money on ammo and pratice time.
If you are just starting out, the rifle itself (as long as it is reliable) will NOT be your limiting factor. Improve your skill first. You should be able to shoot a stock rifle competitively before you dump money into race guns, and I do mean DUMP.

I have been shooting 3 gun since 1988 and I have gotten away from both the bells and the wistles.
I have a free float tube on my CMP Service Rifle but IMHO I don't see a need for ne on a 3 gun rifle unless it is just for the "cool" factor. You will not be shooting 200 or 600 yard shots with a really tight sling, which is what a free float tube is for on the service rifle. Leaning against a barracade should not interfear with POI at the ranges shot in IPSC plus I don't believe you would be leaning that hard on it anyway, most of the props for stages are just that, props. No body that I have seen have used a sling anyway.

YMMV
Good Luck
Bill
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