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Posted: 7/28/2005 5:37:04 PM EDT
I am new to this and looking for information. I am going to use the AR to replace my .243. I want a 16 inch version and am considering an Olympic Arms k16 can anyone offer advice on what I should buy?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 5:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 5:42:00 PM EDT by Stickman]
You need to post more info and say what you are looking to do with the weapon. For example, are you looking to punch paper, take tac courses, defend your ranch, etc etc..

Without additional info, anyone who posts is just blowing smoke.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:23:37 PM EDT
Thank You Stickman:

I plan to use it to punch paper and groundhogs at distance. I will also be using it for home defense in conjunction with my XD 40. I have some idea of what I want after reading posts and mfg lit. I like the idea of a free floating HG and A3 type upper. I will probably put flip up sights on it unless people tell me otherwise.

What are the benefits of the m4 type over the other types?

I want something that is handy, reliable, accurate, and relatively inexpensive. I have about $800 to spend.

Any suggestions from anyone?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:27:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 7:30:58 PM EDT by YELLOWV]
If you want it for home defense as well as plinking and a bit of groundhog hunting go with an M4. The K16 is a bull bbl target rifle. It is not well suited for home defense at all. It would work great with a good scope for target and groundhog shooting from a bench or bipod and prone but for home defense its going to be front heavy and awkward. With a little searching you can get a Bushy M4 for about $800. I would go that route. Here I'll do the searching for you..
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=122&t=366950
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 5:31:11 AM EDT
Thank you for your time and information Stickman!

I will probably be using the weapon more for targets and varmit hunting than anything else. I live in a very nice location but you never know right?

I am going to be replacing my .243 hog gun so I do need something accurate. Thanks again for your time.

If anyone else has a reccomendation I would love to hear it.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 1:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2005 6:57:52 PM EDT by chewbacca]
Look on the EE. You can find exactly what you are looking for for good prices.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 5:02:33 PM EDT
a 16" carbine AR is a good all-around rifle. Plenty accurate and fun to shoot. Fine defense weapon as well.

Many choices in the AR world. Agreed visit the EE. You can tailor one to your specific
needs.

And you will not find better help than here.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:48:44 PM EDT
Thank you very much for your help Stickman, Chewbacca, and Beernut!

I greatly appreciate the advice.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:05:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Thank you very much for your help Stickman, Chewbacca, and Beernut!

I greatly appreciate the advice.



No problem. Oh wait you didn't thank me.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:16:54 PM EDT
Don't jump into any decision. Hang around here and read extensively.

For $800, you are probably looking Bush or Rock River. The free float rail system is good for all kinds of goodies for your babie doll AR. $800 may just buy you a bare gun, but after that you will want Holographic sight, backup iron sight, SureFire flashlight etc etc etc. Soon, you will have a bill of $1000. *wink *wink.

Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:24:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheStupid:
Don't jump into any decision. Hang around here and read extensively.

For $800, you are probably looking Bush or Rock River. The free float rail system is good for all kinds of goodies for your babie doll AR. $800 may just buy you a bare gun, but after that you will want Holographic sight, backup iron sight, SureFire flashlight etc etc etc. Soon, you will have a bill of $1000. *wink *wink.




With all that he'd have a bill of over $1500. Damn BRD
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:30:31 PM EDT
I meant to say $1000 in addition to the $800. :-)

Be ready to spend at least $1500 for your barbie doll, not including any ammo. $800 is way too tight.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:45:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheStupid:
I meant to say $1000 in addition to the $800. :-)

Be ready to spend at least $1500 for your barbie doll, not including any ammo. $800 is way too tight.


sad but true.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 11:27:53 PM EDT
You can put together a sweet STAG for 680!
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 7:32:49 PM EDT
YELLOWV I am truly sorry I fneglected to thank you also. better late than never right?h
Like i said earlier the weapon is going to replace my boly action hog gun and I am reading and trying to come to a decision before the wife spends the money.he
Thanks again for all your help!

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:01:36 PM EDT
I would recomend staying away from olyimpics because I have one and I had to change out alot of parts to get it to be reliable if I were going to do it again and I did I would not buy the fanncy free floater oly and I would have gotten a Armalite, Bushmaster, or Colt the next time around I got an armalite and the n later tweaked it with all the goodies that I wanted, plus you won,t really know what you want until you have shot it and seen what other people want, also the regular ones are almost as accurate as the free floaters
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 6:47:06 PM EDT
Thank you very much for your information HIREFORFIRE. I think I have made my decision I am going to go with a Bushmaster 16 in heavy barrel carbine.

I hope this is a good choice.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:04:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Thank you very much for your information HIREFORFIRE. I think I have made my decision I am going to go with a Bushmaster 16 in heavy barrel carbine.

I hope this is a good choice.



The bushmaster carbine is a great AR, but Id like to vote against the heavy bbl. I had one and just hated how it was so ...well...heavy. There is a reason I sold it. I like the lighter M4 type barrels so much better.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:05:50 PM EDT
The Bushy HBar carbine is a great rifle but if you are going to sling it around on hog hunts and such I would get the 16"M4 if I were you. The narrow under the handguards M4 bbl is noticably lighter. You will feel the difference lugging it all day long. As for accuracy there will be little to no difference in the two other than the narrow bbl getting hot faster but when hog hunting this wont be a concern unless you are planning on dumping a couple of mags into a hog
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:38:53 PM EDT
I personally have a Olympic Arms that is a M4 profile barrel, 16". It is freakin accurate, and I use it for plinkin and the occasional target shooting, but mostly for hunting everything from
prairie dogs, gophers, jackrabbits, skunks, possum and especially coyote and fox. Even without the heavy barrel I can get 1/2 groups pretty often depending on ammo, so imagine what that heavy barreled other Olympic 16" could do. I have never had a problem with my Olympic rifle or any of their rifles and they are truly very accurate and reliable. I would change if I were you and go Olympic and save a few bucks too. Hope you reconsider.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:19:40 AM EDT
Once again thanks to all.

I have looked at the Olympic very hard. How much difference is ther between the different manufacturers? Is it in name only or what? The only problem I am having with Olympic is that there is only one location in Ohio which the Oly web page lists as a distrubitor.

How do you gentelmen feel about Fulton Armory and American Spirit? Are they worth considering?

I do Like the heavy barrel because I also punch paper and do not like having to wait on the barrel to cool after a couple of shots. Weight is not a major concern for me as I am currently shooting a Rem 700 sendero sf 7MM mag

Once again thank you for all your information. You are a great help to me in trying to make a decision
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:31:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
I have looked at the Olympic very hard. How much difference is the between the different manufacturers? Is it in name only or what? The only problem I am having with Olympic is that there is only one location in Ohio which the Oly web page lists as a distributor.

How do you gentlemen feel about Fulton Armory and American Spirit? Are they worth considering?



I am going to offer you the conventional wisdom of a lot of folks here on these boards.

No Olympic! Poor customer service, and spotty quality. One will be great, the next is a 'return to sender'

Fulton Armory and American spirit? NO, to A.S. and I wouldn't with Fulton

Not that those do not have reasonable products and could very well be all you need, but the point is that there are too many known quantities available to settle for an 'off brand'

Stick to these: (my opinion)

Colt
Bushmaster
Rock River Arms
Armalite

In that order. Many would mix that list up, but most will agree that it is the ones you want for consistency, quality, customer support, and overall reputation as a fine firearm maker

and do not limit yourself to a local gun-shop

The internet has made the entire world your gun-shop, and you have countless options for getting the exact weapon you want, at a price that is competitive, and will provide you a lifetime of enjoyment

Check the vendors in the Industry section of this site, and then the Equipment Exchange for some others


Hell, get the Special Edition Black Rifle (SEBR) Bushmaster! That will take care of price, quality, and everthing else!
Good luck, neophyte!
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:35:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 11:44:21 AM EDT by YELLOWV]
With a govt profile bbl. you wont have to let the bbl cool between shots. On Saturday I fired about 500 rds through my Bushy M4gery and only let the bbl cool while reloading mags and when the line went cold. Accuracy never suffered.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:35:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 10:39:38 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Once again thanks to all.

I have looked at the Olympic very hard. How much difference is ther between the different manufacturers? Is it in name only or what? The only problem I am having with Olympic is that there is only one location in Ohio which the Oly web page lists as a distrubitor.

How do you gentelmen feel about Fulton Armory and American Spirit? Are they worth considering?

I do Like the heavy barrel because I also punch paper and do not like having to wait on the barrel to cool after a couple of shots. Weight is not a major concern for me as I am currently shooting a Rem 700 sendero sf 7MM mag

Once again thank you for all your information. You are a great help to me in trying to make a decision



Fulton makes excellent products, ASA has had a reputation for spotty quality in the past although there is new management. Haven't seen any reviews lately.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:17:52 AM EDT
Four 800 bucks get a Bushmaster or a Armilite or RRA!
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:39:31 AM EDT
I've ripped thru about 6000 rounds of polymer Wolf in my Olympic AR with no problems.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:31:37 PM EDT
Thanks again for the information.

Would it make a difference if i did not plan on shooting thousands of thousands of rounds?

I have called around and gotten a price on the bushy. Both the 16 heavy barrel and the M4 are selling for around $900. They are backordered because, as one gun clerk stated, the militray is buying them!?

If I go a bit cheaper I can get some extra mags and goodies. I truly want what everyone else probably wants a quality, ACCURATE, weapon at a decent price.

The Rock River are about the same price. Is DPMS a quality product? This seems to be the only other type we have not discussed.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:48:52 PM EDT

I recently put a 16" Midlength together for about $685.00.

Ameetec Arms Stripped Lower- $80 Group Buy
RRA Lower Parts Kit w/Hogue- $65
Ace Skeleton Stock- $90
Armalite M15A4 Upper- $450

Unfortunately, I took it fishing and it was lost at sea


I love mine, and put a some other goodies on it.

But, if you get an A2 or a carry handle for a Flattop, you can still get quality for about the $800.00 you want to spend.

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:51:28 PM EDT
Guys i am truly sorry to bring up a subject which seem to get beaten to death on this forum. I just want to make a good decision based on expert opinions.

I have been reading more of the posts and it seems that people who ask these types of questions are considered neophytes Thanks again for your information. I will let you know what i have purchased when the time comes.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:53:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 3:54:07 PM EDT by neophyte]
DWFAN Thanks but i do not think I have the mechanical knowhow to put one of these things together after only holding one and firing on a handful of times. I have just enough experence to know I truly have to get one!
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:57:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
DWFAN Thanks but i do not think I have the mechanical knowhow to put one of these things together after only holding one and firing on a handful of times. I have just enough experence to know I truly have to get one!



The only thing I had to do was assemble the lower parts kit into the lower as well as the stock! It was my first time and it only takes about 1/2 an hr. It's ridiculously easy

The upper comes COMPLETE, and ready to go.

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:09:04 PM EDT

.... Is DPMS a quality product? This seems to be the only other type we have not discussed.


Ah, finally! The DPMS name is here at last. A lot of AR enthusiasts tend to over look the DPMS option. I believe the DPMS line (www.dpmsinc.com) to be very fine ARs. her
A.R.M.S.® #51 CV A1A2 S.I.R.® System
EOTech Holographic Weapon Sight -Model 512A65
Streamlight® “Scorpion” Tactical Light
Fobus Tactical Light Mount
SpecterGear® M.O.U.T. Single Point Sling (Black)
GG&G Sling Adapter
VLTOR Carbine/collapsible Modstock - Model# ACK-2S (Black)
Wilson Combat Tactical Latch
Hogue Grip

I would consider the DPMS as an alternative. My Panther Carbine retails for $789. You may be able to purchase them for slightly less.

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:15:24 PM EDT
Well the only hang up about DPMS is the heavy barrels are chamberd in .223 and not 5.56 according to their web page.

How about AMEETC Arms? There is a link at the top of the forum page after all. Are they worth checking out?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:17:17 PM EDT
DWFAN should I ask how on Earth you lost your weapon at sea??????
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:29:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
DWFAN should I ask how on Earth you lost your weapon at sea??????



Most everyone has had a boating accident.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:36:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By neophyte:
DWFAN should I ask how on Earth you lost your weapon at sea??????



Most everyone has had a boating accident.



At Least One
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:04:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 5:37:52 PM EDT by Echo20]
neophyte:

Welcome aboard. I was in your same boat a month ago, and I think you will find some great advice on this board. The choices can be overwhelming. I'm like you, I want my first put togehter by someone who knows what they are doing. I don't want a single shot AR! My second will certainly be one I try my hand at putting together on my own.

What I've gathered from reading the informed opinions here about first AR's was this:

Buy one from one of the reputable brand names and you will do well. Even those brands that get knocked will have at least one person (often more) step up and say they have had one and never had any problems.

A few common themes seem to pop up when the question you asked gets posted. Agian, not my own opinion, but just what I've read in my search for the answer to your question.

Colt - a lot of die hard fans here - some that won't own anything else. Common comments are made about their above average quality control. A lot of comments also posted about poor customer service. Somewhat more expensive than other brands, but maybe better resale (if that matters to you).

Bushmaster - It seems a lot of folks here own/have owned one and I don't see them getting knocked much. Those that own them seem to be happy with them.

RRA - Seems to be fewer here that own them (compared to Colt and Bushmaster), maybe because their popularity started to rise in the AR world in the last few years after their DEA contract, but I also don't hear a lot of negative comments about them.

Armalite - I don't hear many knock them, other than complaints about difficult to get, not many available off the shelf, etc. Again, those that own them seem to like them.

Oly - Seems to be a split camp. I've read a lot here from folks that believe their quality control is not up to par. Others say they own them and they have been happy with them.

DPMS - Just don't seem to get mentioned as much as others.

Those seem to be mentioned more than others. It seems like you know what you are looking for and you look like you are on the right track.

I went with the RRA - reputation seems good and price was competitive. Also came with a lot of options I was looking for in one package. Trying to make a decision was a killer, but again, from what most people suggested, any of the top producers will most likely leave you with a fine weapon. From that point of view, it may be harder to make a mistake than to get it right.

Good luck and safe shooting!

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:14:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Well the only hang up about DPMS is the heavy barrels are chamberd in .223 and not 5.56 according to their web page.

How about AMEETC Arms? There is a link at the top of the forum page after all. Are they worth checking out?



www.dpmsinc.com/223.asp

PANTHER™ CARBINE
(RFA2-PCAR)


Barrel:
• 11.5” 4140 Chrome-moly steel, 5 1/2” Flash hider
• Manganese phosphated
• 6 groove, right-handed 1x9 twist, button rifled

Chamber:
5.56 x 45mm

I can use either .223 or 5.56 ammo. I have actually used on the 5.56 XM193 ammo so far and had no problems.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:23:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
They are backordered because, as one gun clerk stated, the militray is buying them!?




This is an outright lie. Bushmaster does not supply M4s or M16s for the Military. Only FN Herstal and Colt currently supply M16s and M4s for the Military.

The fact is, Bushmasters have been harder to find or backordered since the rush to buy AR15 type rifles after the expiration of the assault weapons ban last September.


See the many threads on idiot gun store clerks.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:26:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 5:30:26 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Well the only hang up about DPMS is the heavy barrels are chamberd in .223 and not 5.56 according to their web page.

How about AMEETC Arms? There is a link at the top of the forum page after all. Are they worth checking out?



Ameetec are good guys.
Also checkout Bravocompanyusa.com, ADCOfirearms.com, Eaglefirearms.net and Denny's guns, and others on the EE(Eqipment exchange).
Lots of great vendors here, you can find them on the Equipment exchange or the industry section.

One word of advice. Avoid gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com unless you know exactly what you are doing. A few new AR owners have come here after they have ordered rifles from sellers on these auctions and found out their new rifles were not what they thought they were getting.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:27:47 PM EDT
ECHO20 thanks for the help.

I am beginning to see the light. there are just so many options to simply pick one is nearly impossible. I guess I will keep looking and hope to find something that I can purchase at a relatively good price.

I will probably have more questions in the future. Please do not cring at that I will try to do the research prior to asking.

Thank you for all your help people. You are truly great Americans!

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:35:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 6:38:00 PM EDT by papertiger]
.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:40:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 6:41:36 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]
Some seem to be steering you to what they prefer.
You asked for two things specifically, and then a third contradictory thing.

1. paper target rifle
2. varmint rifle

3. home defense



By definition, 1 & 2 are typically a heavy, 20" barreled rifle. Usually free floated. typically, with a scope of some magnification 3x or higher. This rifle is usually heavy and solid.

By definition, 3 is typically, a 14.5 or 16 inch, light weight profiled barrel, with a 1x zoom red dot type scope. This rifle is usually as light, and compact as possible.

The first rifle is is not optimal for the second use, and the second rifle is not great of the first use.
Does that make sense?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mention wanting a 16 inch barrel. Are you set on that? It would be OK for groundhog and paper targets, but not optimal, as outlined above. I bet we can work you through this, and get you started for a reasonable amount, then you can purchase upgrades as funding permits.



Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:56:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 7:19:04 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]
FOR EXAMPLE.....


Here is a Complete RRA upper from ADCO Firearms that sells for $395. Downside is you are still about $250-300 from finished because you need scope mount and scope, still. (You can obviosuly go much, much more expensive, but this would get you "in the door" for a base model optic and a good mount)



Look here, at the A.R.M.S. website for scope mounts to see what is available. Plan to spend $150-200 to mount your scope.

Or, you could go with an A2 style, if funds are really tight, for $425, and save on optics until you can save some cash.



I would probably skip the flash hider, and go with a plain muzzle for a target gun. But that is just my preference.

Add a Harris bipod for about $80, and a bipod mount, mounted on the hand guard, and you are in good shape. You can always upgrade your handguard to a free-float, at a later date, once you are ready, if you find it necessary.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, just add a complete lower, like this....

This is $245 - remember, this one ships to an FFL only.



Or, go with a CAR stock for $325...





*now remember, the RRA barrels are not chrome lined. Some guys are really troubled by this. Some are not. If you keep your guns reasonably clean, this will not matter one bit. If you are concerned, look at some Bushmaster complete uppers, which should be about $75 more for a comparable set-up, and will all be chrome lined.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:35:39 AM EDT
Leisure_Shoot Thanks for the information. I guess what I truly want is an all around rifle. I do understand that what I want seems to be a contradiction. That is why I decided on the 16 in version.

How difficult is it to mix and match? Will I have to have parts "fitted" by a gunsmith? I have a tendency to shoot at hogs and paper out to 200+ yards. My most frequent target arrangment is at 100 yards where i try to put rounds through the same holehe
This is right in my price range. How do I go about ordering the parts? Are the internet prices accurate? I know the complete weapons are a bit lower than the MSRP.

Thanks you for your help
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:41:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Leisure_Shoot Thanks for the information. I guess what I truly want is an all around rifle. I do understand that what I want seems to be a contradiction. That is why I decided on the 16 in version.

How difficult is it to mix and match? Will I have to have parts "fitted" by a gunsmith? I have a tendency to shoot at hogs and paper out to 200+ yards. My most frequent target arrangment is at 100 yards where i try to put rounds through the same hole



There is no fitting of an upper to a lower. They just fit together, then you push to pins through and it is held together.
At $200 yards, a 16 inch barrel, with a 1:9 twist will work perfectly for you.
Most folks believe that a 16 inch barrel is almost the same as a 20 inch barrel in accuracy.


The set up you described would be in the neighborhood of $640 and I do keep my weapons clean but I have read that the chrome lined BBL will last longer is this correct? So I would have to add another $75 to that.


How many rounds do you expect to shoot over the next 10 years? 10,000? You won't shoot out your barrel if you are an average shooter for many years.



This is right in my price range. How do I go about ordering the parts? Are the internet prices accurate? I know the complete weapons are a bit lower than the MSRP.


Yes, they are accurate, as you order directly from the site. However, I see some of them are back-ordered, so you may need to look around. Check in the EQUIPMENT EXCHANGE on this site (the link is in the top right corner)
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:42:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 1:33:45 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]

Originally Posted By neophyte:
I have a tendency to shoot at hogs



In Ohio?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 1:45:22 PM EDT
Leisure_Shoot

Thank you again for the information. I will probably not shoot 10,000 rounds through it. I have found a new A3 16" Bushmaster HBAR with a tele stock on one of the links for $890. How does that sound to you?

Yes i am in the wonderfully HOT state of Ohio NE to be more specific.

I do like the HBAR and tele stock. I have looked at RRA and many others. It just needs to be rather handy and accurate out to 200 - 300 yards.



Link Posted: 8/2/2005 1:55:44 PM EDT
aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html
Bushy 16" Hbar A3 in stock and ready to ship $799
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:04:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neophyte:
Leisure_Shoot

Thank you again for the information. I will probably not shoot 10,000 rounds through it. I have found a new A3 16" Bushmaster HBAR with a tele stock on one of the links for $890. How does that sound to you?

Yes i am in the wonderfully HOT state of Ohio NE to be more specific.

I do like the HBAR and tele stock. I have looked at RRA and many others. It just needs to be rather handy and accurate out to 200 - 300 yards.



HBAR is OK. what it really means is "cheap to produce barrel", as there is less machining by the manufacturer. That is not to say the quality is lower, though so don't take that the wrong way. I have an HBAR A2 that was my first AR15. The downside is the rifle will be heavier. However, fear not, you can always have ADCO cut down your barrel contour for about $100, later on, if you don't like it.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:07:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 2:08:16 PM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]

Originally Posted By YELLOWV:
aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html
Bushy 16" Hbar A3 in stock and ready to ship $799



$855 with sales tax

You could save shipping, and NICS/transfer charge by your local dealer if you were to take a road trip down to AIM Surplus. It is a kind of neat place to check out. Downside is that they are about 3 hours from you. (mapquest them to be sure).
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