Hello all,

I just had some work done on my AR. The biggest improvements were the 2 stage trigger, crowned muzzle and the stock.  See pic below. 3 rounds at 50 yards all touching almost all in the same whole.  I could not get a consistent tight group at 100 yards (that was me).  If it shoots like this at 50yrds what is it capable of at 100? ½" groups? At 200-500?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/sauce33/Stag.jpg

Shoot it and see is the only "real" answer to that question IMO

Also, I would recommend 5 shot groups. The more observations, the lower margin of error.

You should do just fine.

Most AR15 can shoot clover size groups at 50Y
Even with a Aimpoint


Go Shoot

What stock do you recommend for a long-range AR?

This is definitely good advice. The PRS looks cool, and that's about it.

PRS  is that the above stock?

Looks like nevermind

Ammo, Ammo, Ammo..............oh did I say Ammo..

Try some match ammo. My AR likes Hornady 75gr match.

I learned there is a big difference in 50yard shooting versus 100yard and beyond, Breathing, trigger control and all that are even more vital.

You mean someone can shoot striaght with a regular stock

Thanks.  I've been looking at the Sully.  I'm 5' 9", and the A2 LOP is all wrong for me.

Lately My 2 M4`s hate the 75gr bullet
Well the last case of Black Hills Blue 75gr
cant get it to group tight like the 77gr smk


Shooting at 50 is the same for me shooting 200 Y
the bullet has its path


I

Sorry guys maybe I should have clarified…  I know how to shoot (breathing, trigger pull etc,etc) and I do need practice.  My question was more hypothetical and “in General”.  What type of groups could you expect with a good shooter from an AR at 100yrds that is set up for target shooting or “match shooting”?  What is considered a tight group at 100 yards?  Thanks for the pointers on the stock.  I didn’t think it was a bad stock.  I will also try different ammo too.

This. The ammo pictured is 2-3 MOA at best.  Try some Black Hills 69-77 gr.

I'm not even that good a shooter:






Same rifle, same yardage, same day, only difference is this is American Eagle XM193.  Ammo is key.

The 69gr FGMM's are pretty damn accurate too for off the shelf.

One lil flyer

Funny.  That's looks almost exactly like when i switched from AA 150gr 308 to 168gr FGGM 308 out of my LR308.  I was thinking GOOD GRIEF this rifle SUCKS and so do I, then literally one mag/ammo change later I brought my groups from 3"+ to 5-shot sub-MOAs.  Talk about tearing your hair out.  I thought my barrel or scope was loose.  Some barrels are REAL finicky about ammo, no matter the caliber.

Wrong. Not everyone has the exact same facial geometry, so to speak. So the idea that the PRS has absolutely no application aside from aesthetics is ignorant. With a proper cheek weld, some people may not be perfectly aligned with the scope, for a number of reasons, including how high the optic is mounted or the shape of your face. Having some adjustment is a good thing for some people. The same is tru of the length of pull. If a standard A1 or A2 stock fits you perfectly, congrats. It's not perfect for everyone.

I own a rifle with a PRS and appreciate the adjustability. I've owned and shot rifles with standard A1 and A2 stocks. They are very servicable. I like the slight adjustments, among other features, that my PRS allows. And for the record, I personally find the PRS a tad ugly. But winning a rifle beauty contest was not the point if that build. Now a UBR, that's a sharp looking stock.

Adrock1

Didn't you put up a video or some text that went into detail about long range, prone shooting, or did I imagine that, Bigbore?

*ETA: I found it myself

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=130&t=148931

Thank you Captains!  That was the info I was looking for.  That is exactly what my group looked like at 100yrds (bottom) pic.  2-3 MOA.  I thought it was me.  I thought that if my AR grouped like that at 50' (in my pic) that it should have been a tigher group at 100".  I will try the BH ammo.  

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics.

If you didn’t mean offense, you wouldn’t have posted it.
You trashed my new stock, my scope mounts and my shooting abilities (or lack of).  You really need to work on those people skills .
Your dissertation on “how to shoot” did not answer my question.
Thank you to those that did.

You realize that you asked a question about what YOUR gun was capable of.. without anyone else shooting it, only you can answer that question.. Hence if you knew how to shoot - you would have the answer to your question.
BigBore was giving you advice on improving your shooting skills, which in turn would answer your question about what your rifle is capable of.

50 yards is not where you want to be shooting to see how a rifle groups. What ammo are you using that  groups at 50 yards ad not at 100 yards?




Here is mine.


THE RIFLE






THE TARGET




If you want to try ammo that SHOULD give you amazing groups, buy a box of federal gold medal match 77gr.

To me, when it comes to groups anything less then 100 yards and 5 shots isnt worthy of praise. If you're shooting 3shots at 50 yards you might as well do it  point blank, as i can get 1/2" 3 shot groups with silver bear (sometimes)

Please read the entire thread.
I did clarify my self above and my question again was hypothetical and not specific to my AR.

Thanks InfiniteGrim, you may not be able to see it in the pic but I was shooting American Eagle XM

Let's compare apples to apples people. Some of you are talking group sizes in inches, and some of you are talking in MOA. and they ARE NOT the samething. Unless you are only going to shoot to 100 yards. Then in that case, that is not long range shooting IMO. Maybe if you're using a barrel less than 12 inches then 100 yards might be considered "long range". But with your setup, good ammo and you doing your part I'd expect 2MOA out of a semiauto at 600 yards. Thats a 12 inch maximum spread.

Now, I handload for a 308 bolt gun that I built and I can expect sub MOA at 600 yards. I believe you'd be able to do even better than 2MOA at 600 if you built up some nice handloads.

Hypothetically

That's impossible to answer, which is what woode was trying to say. You only shot 3 shot groups, which is not enough statistical observations to warrant any sort of accurate guesswork about what YOU could do at 100 yards. We know nothing about your shooting experience, if those groups are the norm for you, or just your best (I would guess the latter), what the conditions will be when you shoot, which ammo you'll be using, etc...

So, your question (namely the part in red),


is irrelevant because WHOEVER (varying individuals with varying degrees of experience and ability) is doing the shooting on THEIR rifles (which will most likely vary significantly in components from yours) is not YOU. Just go out and do it, and then you'll know for sure. I would also consider Bigbore's advice, as he has more rounds fired as of today than most of us will in a lifetime.

For starters... about the stock... Shoot what fits you.. if that stock is good for you, then don't listen to what anyone has to say... if its not get something that works nice... its 100% personal perference.

Second thing to answer your question... I can't measure the group you have but the best way to go about is size it per MOA... MOA or (minute of angle/minute of arc) is the angluar measurement of the arc of 1/60 of a 1 degree angle(360* in a circle)....  1 MOA is approx(by mathamatical coincidence) 1.047" at 100yds... round it off to 1" for the sake of math(and its summer break and I'm not looking forward to deferential equations this fall)

Anyways.... Lets go with a hypothetical example.... Let say you shot 3 shots at 50 yards and your total group was 0.5" from center hole to center hole of the farthest spread bullets... this would translate to approx 1MOA at 50yds... so if in an idea world with constant wind/air temp/etc... the bullets will remain on the same trajectory on all 3 axis.. This means you would shoot 1MOA between 50-(max range) so 1MOA at 100yds would be 1"... at 200yds would be 2"... at 500yds would be 5"....(and 0.5MOA would be 2.5" at 500yds)

So when someone says their gun is an MOA... sub MOA.. sub 0.5MOA gun.. .that means the accuracy of it is that throughout the shooting distance... of course shooting 100yds vs. 500yds is a big difference and your gun might not be capable of holding 1MOA or w/e at that distance.

For example my 308 is a sub 0.3MOA gun (if I do my part) which means it will shoot under a 0.3" group at 100yds, and it will shoot a 1.8" group at 600yds... (yes I actually did this last time out).... Will hopefully repeat this, this upcoming saturday.


FYI.. metric is SOOOO much easier when it comes to angular measurements.... you use mil-radians which is simply 1/1000 of the distance..... so at 100yds = 3600in... 1 mil is 3.6in

In the end outside of shooter skill the next major factor in long range accuracy is definitely high quality ammo.

I hope that helps.

Mike.

I can confirm this. I was there and was marking his shots behind the 600 yard berm. Hellava group. But it was from a rest Next time we'll go head to head from the prone.

That is true... I think the last group I shot before we left that day was approx 0.5-0.6MOA off the bipod.... doesn't matter plenty good enough out of my $650 10FP haha.. can't wait for Saturday!

Mike.

Thanks Mike

mil-rad isn't metric and 1 moa doesn't = 1"

those are the kinds of things that get spread around way too much

That stock works great for me. Funny I thought my ADCO Mk12 upper didn't like any ammo known to man kind cause it grouped like a shotgun. Turns out the barrel wasn't tight at all.

My apologies... you are correct... a mil-rad is NOT a metric unit.. it is an SI unit... and the SI system contains a lot of metric units(meter, kg)

As far as 1 MOA = 1" ... you are also correct... I explained it above that MOA is a angular distance measurement.... it just so happens to be that at 100yds, the length of 1 MOA is 1.047" and for the purpose of shooting, you can round it down to 1"... the difference is 1/2 an inch a 1000yds.

People are applying MOA incorrectly IMHO... I just go along with it for simplicity.

MOA adjustement on a scope makes sense... it is the change to the angle formed between the infinitely long line drawn through the crosshairs of the scope and the infinitely long line draw through the center of the barrel... angular distance.
Applying MOA to a linear distance on a target isn't the exact purpose of MOA... its simply someone took the arc of the angle and drew a straight line through the points at 100yds and use that distance as a linear measurement tool.. when really... its not a straight line but a curved line(hense arc)

Saying your gun is a "one MOA gun" is to say that distance between the extreme spead of the bullets will always be within the 1 MOA angle...  makes sense...

say you have a "1 MOA group" doesn't make math a mathetical sense... at least to me... maybe someone can explain to me how you can use angular measurements to measure a linear distance.

Mike.

QFT

When I started shooting service rifle match my shooting improved exponentially. Something about shooting to 600 yards while your spotter reads wind conditions for you and knowing the clock is ticking...waiting for wind to mellow, keeping calm, having correct shooting position, grip, breathing, etc,etc.

You can learn a hell of a lot.

I agree with you - I was just saying that to make sure newcomers wouldn't read it and now have the wrong info (even if only slightly wrong)..

I shoot sub moa to 500 meters with factory ammo and my SPR.








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I'm not understanding a lot of the "long range" shooting talk here. I'll I've seen is some okay 100yard groups. To me 100yds. is "let's trash some good ammo!" range. My rifle can shoot way, WAY better than I can, but I still pull off sub moa @ 100. Also, yes yes and double yes to the guy that said "DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU". I like an  LMT sopmod stock , My thinking is if it's good for the SEALs, Rangers and the MK12 It's good for me. That aside I like the way it fits, I do well with it, you may not, and that is okay. My rifle eats the hell out of some well driven 68gr hornaday boat tail HP match, and yours may not. Hand loading is a very valuable asset, I'm still learning but I'm getting there. And there is not a thing wrong with practice. You can be the worlds best shot but you need to stay sharp to obtain and hold that title.

Quote of the day:
"That is your rifle, there are many like it but that one is YOURS! You are a team, a good shooting team has three, not two members.......You, your spotter and your RIFLE. Make your rifles fit you, make you ammunition fit you rifle and both of you together will make your target dead".

Most of the tournaments run in this country are under the umbrella of the NRA and CMP. NRA allows you to shoot just about anything you want as far as stocks go, provided you entered the tournament in "match rifle class".

Service rifle as far as the NRA is concerned and CMP only allow service rifles, limits your stock choice on an AR style rifle to an A1 or A2. There is no getting around it. Most matches are fired under service rifle rules.

You can shoot a possible 500 (NMC) or 800 (RMC) score, provided your rifle and ammo can hold 2 minutes of angle and you keep every shot centered acrass the range. 2 minutes will get inside the ten ring at 200, 300 or 600 yards. The rest is up to you.

Find a local tournament and show up early to help out. Talk with people there and you'll make new friends and get pointed in the direction you want to be.

You basically need an A2 DCM/CMP style rifle to get started. If you are actually going to shoot at 600 yard tournaments get the fixed handle model, it has more elevation available. If you are only going to shoot small local events 100, 200 or 300 yards, then a detachable handle will work OK. I've seen people completely unscrew the detachable handle sight trying to get on target at 600 yards.

Get a high quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel, 75/77 grain bullets for 200/300 and 80 grain single loaded for 600. You can load 24.0 grains of Varget in every round, it may not be optimized, but it will work across the course for starters.

Good Luck

+1


I have a LOT of LC M855 Thats shoots alot worse than that!  10rd group is over 6inches easy
Some of the worst LCM855 I ever shot! useing Rack Grade LMT M4`S aimpoint/eotech


I like Black Hills White Box 5.56mm 77gr OTM and Black hills red & Blue 77gr OTM  
5rd groups to clover useing Rack grade LMT M4`s


also might try Federal 69 BTHP
Ive got ragged hole groups @100Y useing a 20HBAR / 10x prone


Might even try 50- 55gr HP

Hey Didnt BIGBORE do a 500Y shoot with a SBR  

Anyway I seen a GI type shoot a Colt M4 shorty useing a redot scope and magnifier at 500Y
he was hitting the steel plates with ease

Looks like alota fun

when useing a Rifle 5rd groups at 100Y still dont mean much.
To me its the same as 50Y


Ive shot alot of 3rd / 5rd clover groups at 100Y and 200Y still dont mean a thing.


10rd groups at 100Y  1inch and under Then Talk


I dont bother with it anymore since I sold my AR15 Rifle & 222rem / 30 06 Bolt Actions
I just kept a rack Grade M4 Beater around and a spare for back up.
No need for Match grade accuracy