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Posted: 4/10/2006 8:47:03 PM EST
Does anyone make a 16" barrel with a lightweight profile that will consistently shoot sub-MOA out to 600m? Obviously the rest of the parts matter, I'm just wondering where I can get a barrel like this.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 9:14:01 PM EST
Sub-MOA out to 600? That would be quite a trick...
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 9:50:05 PM EST
Shit, good luck getting one...they use those on the space shuttle
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:37:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 11:37:18 PM EST by SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Does anyone make a 16" barrel with a lightweight profile that will consistently shoot sub-MOA out to 600m?


....................................NO!...that would be quite a barrel! someday maybe but not right now....but if I am wrong please someone sell me 10 right now!

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:47:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:

Does anyone make a 16" barrel with a lightweight profile that will consistently shoot sub-MOA out to 600m?


....................................NO!...that would be quite a barrel! someday maybe but not right now....but if I am wrong please someone sell me 10 right now!




+1 but i'm in for 15
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:18:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 4:25:53 AM EST by spanky02]
Thanks for the replies!

I'm trying to put together a KISS carbine that's light and maneuverable, but still very accurate at long distances. Are there production barrels worth looking at or should I be talking to MSTN, etc.

I'm going very basic on the rest of the rifle: DD 7.0, optic (probably ACOG), BUIS, GI FSB, and collapsible stock.

(ETA: accessories)
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:55:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By spanky02:
Thanks for the replies!

I'm trying to put together a KISS carbine that's light and maneuverable, but still very accurate at long distances. Are there production barrels worth looking at or should I be talking to MSTN, etc.

I'm going very basic on the rest of the rifle: DD 7.0, optic (probably ACOG), BUIS, GI FSB, and collapsible stock.

(ETA: accessories)



There's your answer. I'm in the same boat right now.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:01:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By spanky02:
Does anyone make a 16" barrel with a lightweight profile that will consistently shoot sub-MOA out to 600m? Obviously the rest of the parts matter, I'm just wondering where I can get a barrel like this.



No sir, but if you find one, let me know, I'll take one too.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:31:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:

Does anyone make a 16" barrel with a lightweight profile that will consistently shoot sub-MOA out to 600m?


....................................NO!...that would be quite a barrel! someday maybe but not right now....but if I am wrong please someone sell me 10 right now!




Nonsense!! This has been discussed several times. Barrel weight / thickness does not affect accuracy. Light weight barrels, however, will heat faster. Note the single 200 yard group shot from a cold SP1 pencil barrel using handloads. Also with a 4X K4 weaver scope no less.



Flame away, at least I show the proof
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:36:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By PRAIRIERAT:
Flame away, at least I show the proof



On your buttstock nonetheless. Teh ghey.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:55:09 AM EST
"I could build you a 6 pound rifle that would put its first round within 1 minute of your point of aim every time at 1000 yards. But your second shot will go somewhere else." Ted Yost

If such a beast can be made, I expect it will use a carbon fiber wrapped barrel.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:23:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 10:28:08 AM EST by PRAIRIERAT]

Originally Posted By squeky:

Originally Posted By PRAIRIERAT:
Flame away, at least I show the proof



On your buttstock nonetheless. Teh ghey.



Sorry man, not my gun. Rangeowners gun, my target. Rangeowner talking smack about his SP1 pencil that could shoot as good as my LBC. I called BS....He was right.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:41:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 10:41:39 AM EST by Y4145]

Originally Posted By PRAIRIERAT:

Flame away, at least I show the proof





Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:16:55 AM EST
Best bet for a lightweight barrel would be an ABS Carbon Fiber barrel with the Mike Rock rifling.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:56:47 AM EST
You're looking for a sub MOA lightweight barrel for 600y shooting, and you're going to put an ACOG on it....

Errrr.... yeah, that's the ticket.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:50:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By xenophobe:
You're looking for a sub MOA lightweight barrel for 600y shooting, and you're going to put an ACOG on it....

Errrr.... yeah, that's the ticket. hinking.gif



This rifle will fill several roles. I would put some more serious glass on there for LR shooting. My goal is to build a light, multi-purpose rifle that could handle most any task I would be likely to throw at it. I just think it's a fun challenge to stretch the AR's performance envelope.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:58:04 PM EST
You're problems are a few.

One to get sub moa accuracy at 600 yds, you are gonna need your own loaded match bullets made for your rifle.

You're gonna need someone to make you a barrel 16" long that will deliver that accuracy.
Probably not impossible, but damn hard to find and probably real expensive.

You're gonna want it to be lightweight. Not necessarily a problem in itself, but with the requirements above REALLY hard to find. The amount of heat might make it start to wander after 10 or so rounds, depending on time between shots.

IF I were you, I would call Frank White, at compass lake engineering.

He is probably your best bet, and if he tell you it can't be done, believe him.

www.compasslake.com

Good luck

TXL
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 12:01:54 AM EST
Hell I'd be happy if I could find a 14.5" 1:7- 1:9 (preferrably 1:8) twist LW barrel that was chrome lined and was .625 at the gasport that shot MOBG (minute of bad guy) for 30 rds rapid fire. CMMG has a LW but is .750 at the gas block. I want a real LW that I can perm attach a good FH to keep it over 16" but as light and compact as possible.

I'd replace my M4 type barrel in a second for such an animal!!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 1:40:28 AM EST
Here's the no-bullshit reality:


Barrel weight and length have little or nothing to do with accuracy.


What counts is chamber, crown, quality of rifling, and stiffness.


The crown ensures that the bullet leaves the barrel with a uniform push of gasses behind it. The chamber ensures that the cartridges are centered and concentrical as possible from shot to shot. It helps the bullet to engage the rifling the same way, in the same position every time. The rifling ensures that the bullet is spinned smoothly, and that there is minimal damage to the jacket, and that forces are placed on the bullet evenly.

Stiffness, often achieved by fattening the barrel, minimizes the natural harmonic vibration of the barrel as the bullet travels through it. If you can strink the amount of "whip"..the tigther the groups.


HOWEVER, free floating is far more important than stiffness (if you had to have just 1), because all the barrel whip in the world won't hurt you IF the bullet is leaving the barrel at the same position of barrel movement each time. This is determined by velocity. That's why handloaded ammo is more accurate. If you can make ammo that deviates less than 10fps average from shot to shot, the bullets will be vibrating the barrel the same way (almost) each time. We're talking 1 hole groups here.

Thus, if Krieger or some other high-end barrel maker made a "pencil barrel" using their quality chamber, quality rifling, quality crown, and quality steel...and you free floated it, and used handloads. There is no reason why it shouldn't shoot under 6" at 600 yards (sub moa).

Stiffness helps, but it is over-rated. It's what you do to squeeze that last 0.1% of accuracy out of barrel. That's why heavy barrels with crap chambers and rifling are a joke. The thickness cannot help you when the most important aspects of accuracy are not there in the first place......


The best is to have all the elements together. But they do have a rank in importance to how much effect on accuracy they have.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:20:47 AM EST
wht about that abs mike rock carbon barrel? That's insanely accurate and light.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:55:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 8:56:26 PM EST by SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Originally Posted By spanky02:
Thanks for the replies!

I'm trying to put together a KISS carbine that's light and maneuverable, but still very accurate at long distances. Are there production barrels worth looking at or should I be talking to MSTN, etc.

I'm going very basic on the rest of the rifle: DD 7.0, optic (probably ACOG), BUIS, GI FSB, and collapsible stock.

(ETA: accessories)



Im going to test this lightweight tomorrow and I'll let you know how it shoots at distance...
its a 20 pencil cut to 16"

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:20:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:
Im going to test this lightweight tomorrow and I'll let you know how it shoots at distance...
its a 20 pencil cut to 16"
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/Recon13.jpg
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/Recon13-2.jpg



Thanks SD. Looking forward to the range report.

Two quick questions about that rifle. Do you favor a brake over a flash suppressor for a Recon? I would think the FS would be better in the event that you're using it at night. Second, why the long handguards? I would think that in the interest of weight savings you'd go for a 7.0 HG, but it seems like most people go with rifle-length handguards on their Recons. My guess is you're willing to trade a few extra ounces for the flexibility provided by the extra "rail estate".
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:38:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 7:38:54 AM EST by PRAIRIERAT]

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
Here's the no-bullshit reality:


Barrel weight and length have little or nothing to do with accuracy.


What counts is chamber, crown, quality of rifling, and stiffness.


The crown ensures that the bullet leaves the barrel with a uniform push of gasses behind it. The chamber ensures that the cartridges are centered and concentrical as possible from shot to shot. It helps the bullet to engage the rifling the same way, in the same position every time. The rifling ensures that the bullet is spinned smoothly, and that there is minimal damage to the jacket, and that forces are placed on the bullet evenly.

Stiffness, often achieved by fattening the barrel, minimizes the natural harmonic vibration of the barrel as the bullet travels through it. If you can strink the amount of "whip"..the tigther the groups.


HOWEVER, free floating is far more important than stiffness (if you had to have just 1), because all the barrel whip in the world won't hurt you IF the bullet is leaving the barrel at the same position of barrel movement each time. This is determined by velocity. That's why handloaded ammo is more accurate. If you can make ammo that deviates less than 10fps average from shot to shot, the bullets will be vibrating the barrel the same way (almost) each time. We're talking 1 hole groups here.

Thus, if Krieger or some other high-end barrel maker made a "pencil barrel" using their quality chamber, quality rifling, quality crown, and quality steel...and you free floated it, and used handloads. There is no reason why it shouldn't shoot under 6" at 600 yards (sub moa).

Stiffness helps, but it is over-rated. It's what you do to squeeze that last 0.1% of accuracy out of barrel. That's why heavy barrels with crap chambers and rifling are a joke. The thickness cannot help you when the most important aspects of accuracy are not there in the first place......


The best is to have all the elements together. But they do have a rank in importance to how much effect on accuracy they have.



DTOM,
Thanks for the post, very informative.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 8:16:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
Here's the no-bullshit reality:

Barrel weight and length have little or nothing to do with accuracy.

What counts is chamber, crown, quality of rifling, and stiffness.

The crown ensures that the bullet leaves the barrel with a uniform push of gasses behind it. The chamber ensures that the cartridges are centered and concentrical as possible from shot to shot. It helps the bullet to engage the rifling the same way, in the same position every time. The rifling ensures that the bullet is spinned smoothly, and that there is minimal damage to the jacket, and that forces are placed on the bullet evenly.

Stiffness, often achieved by fattening the barrel, minimizes the natural harmonic vibration of the barrel as the bullet travels through it. If you can strink the amount of "whip"..the tigther the groups.

HOWEVER, free floating is far more important than stiffness (if you had to have just 1), because all the barrel whip in the world won't hurt you IF the bullet is leaving the barrel at the same position of barrel movement each time. This is determined by velocity. That's why handloaded ammo is more accurate. If you can make ammo that deviates less than 10fps average from shot to shot, the bullets will be vibrating the barrel the same way (almost) each time. We're talking 1 hole groups here.

Thus, if Krieger or some other high-end barrel maker made a "pencil barrel" using their quality chamber, quality rifling, quality crown, and quality steel...and you free floated it, and used handloads. There is no reason why it shouldn't shoot under 6" at 600 yards (sub moa).

Stiffness helps, but it is over-rated. It's what you do to squeeze that last 0.1% of accuracy out of barrel. That's why heavy barrels with crap chambers and rifling are a joke. The thickness cannot help you when the most important aspects of accuracy are not there in the first place......

The best is to have all the elements together. But they do have a rank in importance to how much effect on accuracy they have.



How much reliability to you have to trade off to get uber-accuracy with a tighter chamber?

Matt
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 8:29:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By MattLarson:

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
Here's the no-bullshit reality:

Barrel weight and length have little or nothing to do with accuracy.

What counts is chamber, crown, quality of rifling, and stiffness.

The crown ensures that the bullet leaves the barrel with a uniform push of gasses behind it. The chamber ensures that the cartridges are centered and concentrical as possible from shot to shot. It helps the bullet to engage the rifling the same way, in the same position every time. The rifling ensures that the bullet is spinned smoothly, and that there is minimal damage to the jacket, and that forces are placed on the bullet evenly.

Stiffness, often achieved by fattening the barrel, minimizes the natural harmonic vibration of the barrel as the bullet travels through it. If you can strink the amount of "whip"..the tigther the groups.

HOWEVER, free floating is far more important than stiffness (if you had to have just 1), because all the barrel whip in the world won't hurt you IF the bullet is leaving the barrel at the same position of barrel movement each time. This is determined by velocity. That's why handloaded ammo is more accurate. If you can make ammo that deviates less than 10fps average from shot to shot, the bullets will be vibrating the barrel the same way (almost) each time. We're talking 1 hole groups here.

Thus, if Krieger or some other high-end barrel maker made a "pencil barrel" using their quality chamber, quality rifling, quality crown, and quality steel...and you free floated it, and used handloads. There is no reason why it shouldn't shoot under 6" at 600 yards (sub moa).

Stiffness helps, but it is over-rated. It's what you do to squeeze that last 0.1% of accuracy out of barrel. That's why heavy barrels with crap chambers and rifling are a joke. The thickness cannot help you when the most important aspects of accuracy are not there in the first place......

The best is to have all the elements together. But they do have a rank in importance to how much effect on accuracy they have.



How much reliability to you have to trade off to get uber-accuracy with a tighter chamber?

Matt



3.

CHRIS
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:18:40 AM EST
It will shoot fine until you get the slightest amount of heat. The people telling you that pencil barrels are just as accurate are only telling half the truth. Barrels heat up, and pencil barrels show the negative effects at a much quicker rate. It doesn't matter how "stiff" it is, it will get hot. It may be accurate, but for how long.

If you're shooting 5 shot groups once an hour, you'll be fine. If you're like me and you like putting a decent amount of rounds down range, you'll be wishing you hadn't wimped out over that extra pound (if that).
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:29:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
It will shoot fine until you get the slightest amount of heat. The people telling you that pencil barrels are just as accurate are only telling half the truth. Barrels heat up, and pencil barrels show the negative effects at a much quicker rate. It doesn't matter how "stiff" it is, it will get hot. It may be accurate, but for how long.

If you're shooting 5 shot groups once an hour, you'll be fine. If you're like me and you like putting a decent amount of rounds down range, you'll be wishing you hadn't wimped out over that extra pound (if that).



What effects would you see from the heat?

This is exactly the kind of issue that I'm trying to get out of this discussion. The ultra-lightweight, sub-MOA rifle is appealing but it's a bit academic if it fails in a real-world situation. Maximizing accuracy WITHIN the reliability envelope is more what I am after. I guess the requirement is the lightest profile that will function reliably in a tactical class or SHTF scenario, and also shoot sub-MOA in a long-range situation. I view those two situations as separate, btw, in that I don't have a need to be dumping three mags down the pipe and then have to shoot sub-MOA at 500m right afterwards.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:48:18 AM EST
well if accuracy is your thing then being able to shoot fast is going to ruin that barrel quicker than anything. Biggest throat killers out there is heat due to rapid strings of fire.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 7:31:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 7:37:17 AM EST by olds442tyguy]
Sub MOA at 600 yards is a decent feat all together not even including the whole light weight scenario.

If it were me, I'd get a 16" stainless HBar profile and have it fluted.

ETA: You could contact bigbore at ADCO, or Randall Rausch at AR15 Barrels as they will have both the info and products you need. They're both very qualified in this area.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 7:53:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 7:54:14 AM EST by triburst1]
I have gone to lightweigt barrels on my carbine and rifle. I can't imagine the need to shoot 600m with an AR, or ever going back to a heavy barrel. If I need to shoot something more than 300-400m, I have a 700PSS in .308win.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:49:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:
Im going to test this lightweight tomorrow and I'll let you know how it shoots at distance...
its a 20 pencil cut to 16"
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/Recon13.jpg
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/Recon13-2.jpg



SD, just curious if you had a chance to get to the range.
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