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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/20/2006 9:22:48 AM EDT
Not bashing here, you can hang a tampon off your AR if you want, I am just trying to understand.

I see lots of long range setups with 20-24" barrels, high magnification optics, bipods, etc, that have a flashlight mounted as well.

Now these weapons are totally ineffective as QCB setup and I dont care how good a flashlight you have it aint going out to 600 yards with your focused beam, so why add the extra weight and cost?

It seems useless to me, but if I knew everything I would be asking a question. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:28:45 AM EDT
I understand that completely. The only purpose I could see is that when I was in Iraq on the sniper team I carried an M16A4 with optics and a surefire with an IR cover. I used it with my NOD's at night when we were occupying an area if it were a building or whatnot, very helpful then.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:44:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I understand that completely. The only purpose I could see is that when I was in Iraq on the sniper team I carried an M16A4 with optics and a surefire with an IR cover. I used it with my NOD's at night when we were occupying an area if it were a building or whatnot, very helpful then.



We are not talking combat with night vision. I am talking armchair commando with a varminter, or long range paper punchers with scopes longer than the barrels.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:27:44 AM EDT
if a rifle is set up as "longe range" does that mean it can only be used to engage targets at "long range"?

The hog hunting thread got me thinking.

I personally dont have a need for it but I don't think it's that far off base as far as set ups go. No more crazy than the military adopting a "varmint round" to be used in combat.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:42:25 AM EDT
This setup certainly doesnt preclude it from being used in other areas, but I think you will agree that a magpul precision stock, a 24'' barrel, and a 10X plus magnified scope does not lend itself well to close quarters stuff or anything within reach of the visible light from a rail mounted flashlight.

Like I said in my original post, put what you want on your rifle. Its YOUR rifle, but to me it doesnt seem like it would be useful at all in the setup in question, and everytime I see a pic of one I wonder the same thing. It is like people just put one on there, so they can have their fully accessorized AR, without it serving a practical purpose.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:45:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 10:45:51 AM EDT by DM1975]

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I understand that completely. The only purpose I could see is that when I was in Iraq on the sniper team I carried an M16A4 with optics and a surefire with an IR cover. I used it with my NOD's at night when we were occupying an area if it were a building or whatnot, very helpful then.



We are not talking combat with night vision. I am talking armchair commando with a varminter, or long range paper punchers with scopes longer than the barrels.



If you want to go that route then you mine as well just buy a bb gun, you dont need ANY of the shit that people put on the guns or for that matter an AR at all. Maybe people want a firearm that would be like what would be used for something like that. That kind of thinking leads to more "why do you need it" thinking, which in turn leads to gun bans... well maybe not always but you know what I mean.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:48:05 AM EDT

The hog hunting thread got me thinking.

Could be useful during the night espacially with a lens to possibly track a blood trail while hunting etc...just because it's a long range setup doesn't mean you won't need to see at night. I look at it like a convenience thing really, it's nice to just have a light right there ready if you need it...
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:50:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
This setup certainly doesnt preclude it from being used in other areas, but I think you will agree that a magpul precision stock, a 24'' barrel, and a 10X plus magnified scope does not lend itself well to close quarters stuff or anything within reach of the visible light from a rail mounted flashlight.

Like I said in my original post, put what you want on your rifle. Its YOUR rifle, but to me it doesnt seem like it would be useful at all in the setup in question, and everytime I see a pic of one I wonder the same thing. It is like people just put one on there, so they can have their fully accessorized AR, without it serving a practical purpose.

I think the thing with lights on rifles is why not. Having a light on a rifle isnt going to hurt the rifle. If the light is on a FF rail their is not going to be any terrible loss in accuracy. If you need the light it is there. On a long range setup intended for fighting it is better to have a light if you need it than to wish you had a light moments before you are shot.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:51:09 AM EDT
A 20" SPR (MK12 as some call it) with an ACOG 4X32 and Doctor Optics or J-Point sight mounted on top. Grunts the world over have used 20" M16's for CQB so I wouldn't call it "totally ineffective."

A more appropriate carbine is certainly available for CQB, but that 20" AR will work just fine and may even have better terminal ballistics at close range. Short guns are great, but if I've got a 20" rifle and a pistol, I'll take the rifle first even in CQB / FIBUA.

As for lights.... if you have it on your rifle, it's there when you need it. If you don't, it won't be there when you need it. I've cleared a lot of dark places when it was bright outside.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:51:17 AM EDT
If them wanting a flashlight equals me having one, then let me buy you a extra set of batteries.

Just curious DM1975, do you have this setup?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:52:00 AM EDT
Maybe they want to bring all 3200 fps for "right there" situations where body armor is involved???
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:52:57 AM EDT
No actualy I dont. I have only an M4 and an XM177 at this time.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
If them wanting a flashlight equals me having one, then let me buy you a extra set of batteries.



Huh?

And he brings up a good point, 20" rifles were used for CQB for quite a while before the M4 was in widespread use.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:53:35 AM EDT
if I were to mount a light to a long range firearm, it'd have to be 5million candlepower!
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:54:24 AM EDT
I do agree that a flashlight mounted to your rifle is a lot more convenient than carrying it in your hand or having to dig it ot of your gear when you need it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:01:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:14:43 AM EDT by Stainless]

Originally Posted By Hokie:
if I were to mount a light to a long range firearm, it'd have to be 5million candlepower!



Reporting for duty SIR!!!!




Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:02:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
if I were to mount a light to a long range firearm, it'd have to be 5million candlepower!



That is what I am saying. I am not anti flashlight, just put it where it does the job. On a QCB rig, you would be stupid not to have one, but not on a sniper rig.

And let me say this a 3rd time, I am not trying to tell people what to put on their rifles. Do what you want. I am trying to figure out how it would be useful for the intention of a LONG RANGE setup which is LONG RANGE shooting. You can what if all day long with different situations about clearing rooms and combat situations, but 9 out of 10 rifles that I am seeing pics of are not used for such things, so that doesnt apply.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:03:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
if I were to mount a light to a long range firearm, it'd have to be 5million candlepower!



That is what I am saying. I am not anti flashlight, just put it where it does the job. On a QCB rig, you would be stupid not to have one, but not on a sniper rig.

And let me say this a 3rd time, I am not trying to tell people what to put on their rifles. Do what you want. I am trying to figure out how it would be useful for the intention of a LONG RANGE setup which is LONG RANGE shooting. You can what if all day long with different situations about clearing rooms and combat situations, but 9 out of 10 rifles that I am seeing pics of are not used for such things, so that doesnt apply.



Again, I actualy did have one on my issue rifle on a sniper team and used it alot. In real life, not at the range. And not for spotlighting targets at a distance either.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:06:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:07:35 AM EDT by RolandofGilead]
Read some of the previous posts, wouldn't you agree that if you're walking around at night hunting/hiking/stalking an ex/whatever/ that it would be nice to have a light readily available? Sure you could have it in a holster or whatever, but wouldn't it be even more convienient to have it right there on the rifle regardless of the rifles "role"?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:08:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:09:20 AM EDT by DM1975]
One thing I wont do any more is say "thats retarded" or "you dont need that" or "there is no use for that" I have been schooled so many times with that attitude. And you can use a long range rifle to do CQB, it might not be smart but I have seen it done more than once in the box.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:12:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Read some of the previous posts, wouldn't you agree that if you'rewalking around hunting/hiking/stalking an ex/whatever that it would be nice to have a light readily available? Sure you could have it in a holster or whatever, but wouldn't it be even more convienient to have it right there on the rifle regardless of the rifles "role"?



It is my opinion that having a flashlight on a 46'' long rifle is not convenient. On a shorter rifle, yes. Rifles that large are heavy and awkward, and unless you are going to shoot whatever you are looking at (without aiming, because you are too close to use you magnified optics) I would prefer another alternative. DM1975 posts are the exception, but he is talking about combat, I am not.
Most of the people on this site are not "operators".
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:17:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
One thing I wont do any more is say "thats retarded" or "you dont need that" or "there is no use for that" I have been schooled so many times with that attitude. And you can use a long range rifle to do CQB, it might not be smart but I have seen it done more than once in the box.



I am not calling anyone anything. What I am trying to do is see how those non-combat or LEO people who have such lights on long range rifles are using their lights. I am looking to be educated on this not poke fun or mock someone else.

What I am getting is a bunch of replys from people who dont even have the setup in question saying they can have what they want. If you go back to the original post and read it this time you would know I already know and agree with that.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:18:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Read some of the previous posts, wouldn't you agree that if you'rewalking around hunting/hiking/stalking an ex/whatever that it would be nice to have a light readily available? Sure you could have it in a holster or whatever, but wouldn't it be even more convienient to have it right there on the rifle regardless of the rifles "role"?



It is my opinion that having a flashlight on a 46'' long rifle is not convenient. On a shorter rifle, yes. Rifles that large are heavy and awkward, and unless you are going to shoot whatever you are looking at (without aiming, because you are too close to use you magnified optics) I would prefer another alternative. DM1975 posts are the exception, but he is talking about combat, I am not.
Most of the people on this site are not "operators".



Likr I said, I dont think I would ever do it on a personal rifle but if you want to go that route then you need to attack everyone out there who is not military or LEO (your words:armchair commando) who has doodads or gadgets on their rifles that they dont really "need" to shoot paper with. Like lasers, and flashlights on anything, and tactical rifles AT ALL....
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:20:29 AM EDT
I believe the trapdoor stock was designed to hold the tampons. It would be impossible to do any CQB or win a war with a 20" ar. Oh shit! I forgot to considering that WWII house clearing was done with a 4' M1 and Marines kick ass daily with 20 inchers. Some one should have told them that a cooler looking M4 would enhanse their metro sexual carisma in the event that there is a photo op. Just because yours is 4" shorter doesn't mean you need to overcompensate.


Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:21:27 AM EDT
I guess I just like to have a light at my fingertips.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:25:37 AM EDT
You got to admit, for someone not wanting to bash anyone and just understand you did come off with alot of sarcasm.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:27:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Read some of the previous posts, wouldn't you agree that if you'rewalking around hunting/hiking/stalking an ex/whatever that it would be nice to have a light readily available? Sure you could have it in a holster or whatever, but wouldn't it be even more convienient to have it right there on the rifle regardless of the rifles "role"?



It is my opinion that having a flashlight on a 46'' long rifle is not convenient. On a shorter rifle, yes. Rifles that large are heavy and awkward, and unless you are going to shoot whatever you are looking at (without aiming, because you are too close to use you magnified optics) I would prefer another alternative. DM1975 posts are the exception, but he is talking about combat, I am not.
Most of the people on this site are not "operators".



Likr I said, I dont think I would ever do it on a personal rifle but if you want to go that route then you need to attack everyone out there who is not military or LEO (your words:armchair commando) who has doodads or gadgets on their rifles that they dont really "need" to shoot paper with. Like lasers, and flashlights on anything, and tactical rifles AT ALL....



Not necessarily. Are not LEO types not able to defend themselves and their famiiies, and want to be able to see what they are shooting at. I dont think owning an AR makes me a poser. Owning an AR and thinking that make you a veteran of 2 foreign wars does.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:31:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
Not necessarily. Are not LEO types not able to defend themselves and their famiiies, and want to be able to see what they are shooting at. I dont think owning an AR makes me a poser. Owning an AR and thinking that make you a veteran of 2 foreign wars does.



Thats not my attitude, that was your attitude to the whole flashlight thing. Cant non military and non LEO have a flashlight on their weapons without being thought of as a poser? Your attitude my friend.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:32:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
... I am talking armchair commando with a varminter, or long range paper punchers with scopes longer than the barrels.


You answered your own question right there
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:32:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nyeoj:
I believe the trapdoor stock was designed to hold the tampons. It would be impossible to do any CQB or win a war with a 20" ar. Oh shit! I forgot to considering that WWII house clearing was done with a 4' M1 and Marines kick ass daily with 20 inchers. Some one should have told them that a cooler looking M4 would enhanse their metro sexual carisma in the event that there is a photo op. Just because yours is 4" shorter doesn't mean you need to overcompensate.





Here is the combat thing again. What is done in combat is a completely different thing. Our boys are doing LOTS of things and making do with lots of inadequate equipment. Ask any of them what they would prefer a QCB gun or a .50 bmg to clear houses with, I think you would agree with me.
The .50 bmb can have a light on it too.

That all does not apply, because for the fifth time, I am not talking about combat.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:33:59 AM EDT
I wouldnt mind having a 50 BMG to clear a house with. An M2 can wreak havoc on a Haj house.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:37:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:38:47 AM EDT by Szurgot]

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
Not necessarily. Are not LEO types not able to defend themselves and their famiiies, and want to be able to see what they are shooting at. I dont think owning an AR makes me a poser. Owning an AR and thinking that make you a veteran of 2 foreign wars does.



Thats not my attitude, that was your attitude to the whole flashlight thing. Cant non military and non LEO have a flashlight on their weapons without being thought of as a poser? Your attitude my friend.



Let me rephrase my question in a totally not sarcastic way:

When shooting ground hogs at 100 yards, how effective can a flashlight be in lighting up a target on a 24'' bushmaster varminter?

No combat, no room clearing, no looking for your car keys that you dropped, etc.

ETA: DM1975, where in KY are you? I used to live there.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:38:49 AM EDT
Oh in that case I dont think it would be effective other than after you are done, looking for pieces left of them in their holes.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:39:54 AM EDT
I have a 24" heavy barreled AR and I run an 8-40x56 Tasco Custom Shop scope but I also have a 3-9x50 in another set of mounts that I use for night time coyote hunting. So i use the light for getting into my stand and to spot for eyes.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:40:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By possium8:
I have a 24" heavy barreled AR and I run an 8-40x56 Tasco Custom Shop scope but I also have a 3-9x50 in another set of mounts that I use for night time coyote hunting. So i use the light for getting into my stand and to spot for eyes.



AWESOME ANSWER... There you go, good enough for me.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:40:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Oh in that case I dont think it would be effective other than after you are done, looking for pieces left of them in their holes.



Thank you. It took 2 pages to figure that out. I need to learn how to phrase my questions better.

Now where in KY are you from?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:41:10 AM EDT
coyote hunting
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:42:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By possium8:
I have a 24" heavy barreled AR and I run an 8-40x56 Tasco Custom Shop scope but I also have a 3-9x50 in another set of mounts that I use for night time coyote hunting. So i use the light for getting into my stand and to spot for eyes.



AWESOME ANSWER... There you go, good enough for me.



Me too. Now THAT makes sense, a practical reason.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:44:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Oh in that case I dont think it would be effective other than after you are done, looking for pieces left of them in their holes.



Thank you. It took 2 pages to figure that out. I need to learn how to phrase my questions better.

Now where in KY are you from?



You cant be serious are you? KY?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:54:53 AM EDT
Here is a better question, why have a bayonet on a rifle if you are not going to be clearing trenches? I mean come on, help me understand here... I can understand if you were going to be engaged in heavy hand to hand combat but come on? You gonna "stab" the paper target into submission?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 12:20:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Oh in that case I dont think it would be effective other than after you are done, looking for pieces left of them in their holes.



Thank you. It took 2 pages to figure that out. I need to learn how to phrase my questions better.

Now where in KY are you from?



You cant be serious are you? KY?



Sorry, I looked real quick. Same question applies though, I have family in Kansas too, My sister lives in Overland Park, and my parents used to live in Lawrence.

Personally, I use the bayonet lug all the time for my drive by bayonetings.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 12:21:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By possium8:
I have a 24" heavy barreled AR and I run an 8-40x56 Tasco Custom Shop scope but I also have a 3-9x50 in another set of mounts that I use for night time coyote hunting. So i use the light for getting into my stand and to spot for eyes.



+1-prairie dogs aren't the only varmints out there. Coyotes, skunks, racoons, feral cats and dogs () are best taken at night-this kind of night hunting is even legal here in Blue-state MN.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 12:27:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Oh in that case I dont think it would be effective other than after you are done, looking for pieces left of them in their holes.



Thank you. It took 2 pages to figure that out. I need to learn how to phrase my questions better.

Now where in KY are you from?



You cant be serious are you? KY?



Sorry, I looked real quick. Same question applies though, I have family in Kansas too, My sister lives in Overland Park, and my parents used to live in Lawrence.

Personally, I use the bayonet lug all the time for my drive by bayonetings.



I am at Fort Riley, I am not a Knasan tho, I am from Texas.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:02:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
I see lots of long range setups with 20-24" barrels, high magnification optics, bipods, etc, that have a flashlight mounted as well.

Now these weapons are totally ineffective as QCB setup and I dont care how good a flashlight you have it aint going out to 600 yards with your focused beam, so why add the extra weight and cost?



I have a 9v Surefire on my 20" bbl AR-15. It was great for shooting steel out to 150yds when it was pitch black with no moon. Past that it was useless. A turbo head might throw a bit farther.

When I switched it on, all my buddies started shooting again. We got more range time and had fun for an extra hour that night. For me, that's enough to justify it as a good purchase. BTW, I shot my 24"bbl AR-10T w/ PRS stock and 3.5-10X optics in an IDPA styled rifle shoot. Did it just for sh*ts and grins. Targets were around 25-50ft away, which seems like CQB to me. I was about 10sec slower than with my M4gery. Seems to me that a long range tactical rifle could be deployed CQB if needed.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:05:24 PM EDT
Look at the Surefire M97/98 series of flashlights. For a scoped rifle, it should give a nice beam of light for a couple hundred yards.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:34:25 PM EDT
Surefire Hellfire. It is deployed with a .50 M2 mount and lights up a good half a mile away. Plenty of light but you need a vehicle to plug it into.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:01:31 PM EDT
I mount one of These bad boys on my AR :D It also serves as a monopod, and a heater for those cold nights.

Now on the serious note, I can see the use of a flashlight on a long range AR for navigation reasons.
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