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Posted: 1/7/2005 8:58:55 AM EDT
Okay, got my setup all planned out. There's one accessory I'm debating on adding - a surefire light.

I personally don't really see the need for this. Why not use nightvision if you're fighting in the dark? For intimidation purposes? I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't be intimidated by a flashlight. For that I could pull out my keychain flashlight and "let em have it!"

For spotting things? Like I said, nightvision, use a monocular, they're almost as cheap if not cheaper then most of the flashlight setups being purchased.

Tac-light setups give away your position. Sure you could turn on the light and blind me, when? After you've gathered that "something is in this direction", so you grip your pressure switch and then aim it at me. I think I would have made a move before you do all that hub bub. In real life situations we're talking about split second reactions here. Walking around with the light on to begin with? Please, do so, tell me where you are and what direction your facing, I'd love to sneak behind you and bayonet or knife you.

I just don't understand the purpose of having a light. I've tried imagining situations where it would be beneficial. All I could think of is proppin your AR up using a bipod and making shadow monsters on a nearby wall.

I know this comes off as sarcastic but I really am trying to get your all's opinions. Is it just for the, "look I spent more on my AR and have more gizmos and gadgets, so I can kill you better or faster"??? Frankly I believe I can kill pretty damned quick with my $300 870 shotgun. It doesn't have fancy optics or anything.

I don't understand why you'd get a light to intimidate someone either. I read somewhere where people said you could pull out your gun and shine the light on them, it would intimidate them, partially blind them, and you wouldn't have to shoot. Well... if someone is blind how are they gonna know you didn't just pull out a maglight. I don't understand the point of buying a 2000 dollar gun, sticking another 1000 dollars in accessories on it, to "blind someone."

Face it, guns are made to shoot people, or hunt. Oh, I guess with some of these surefire's you could get lucky and trap some unwitting deer in the beams of your "flashlights" before laying waste....

Don't pull a gun on someone unless you're gonna shoot them. It should be the LAST option you bring yourself to in a situation. Not the first. At the point where I feel it's necesarry to pull out a gun, particularly an AR15, I'm gonna be thinking we're getting invaded, or zombies are rising from the dead. Last thing on my mind is blinding someone with my light.

/end rant :(

Thanks....

Nikkels
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:11:26 AM EDT
If you are using your rifle for police work a light is always a nice option. I don't have the option of not putting myself in a dangerous situation and if I feel the need to use my rifle in a dark building , which is not often, I would still need a flashlight. Why not just use the one on the end of your weapon instead of having to use a pistol in one hand and your handheld flashlight in the other. That is why I have a light on my AR. Just my 2cents.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:13:45 AM EDT
I'd rather use a carbine for defense vs. a handgun.
At night it's dark in my house.

It's not very complicated.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:19:14 AM EDT
Target Identification, plain and simple.
If you can't see and identify a threat, your just wasting ammo and taking a chance on hitting a friendly.
Lights are for CQB, and not long range engagements, if you think you hear someone breaking into your house do you just shoot at the sound or do you ID the threat first?
If you just shoot, you may end up shooting a loved one that was getting a drink of water or came home late.
As for NVDs yeah they are great, but try to shoot accurately with a hand held monocular and rifle or pistol.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:21:24 AM EDT
Go have a friend in a dark room shine 200 lumens of light in your face, and you immeadiatley try and attack him. See what happens.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:26:22 AM EDT
id get a light. they can really help. ID a target, and blinding a possible target so then cant get the first shot off.

again my 0.02

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:26:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 9:53:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HottNikkels069:
Okay, got my setup all planned out. There's one accessory I'm debating on adding - a surefire light.

I personally don't really see the need for this. Why not use nightvision if you're fighting in the dark? For intimidation purposes? I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't be intimidated by a flashlight. For that I could pull out my keychain flashlight and "let em have it!"

For spotting things? Like I said, nightvision, use a monocular, they're almost as cheap if not cheaper then most of the flashlight setups being purchased.

Tac-light setups give away your position. Sure you could turn on the light and blind me, when? After you've gathered that "something is in this direction", so you grip your pressure switch and then aim it at me. I think I would have made a move before you do all that hub bub. In real life situations we're talking about split second reactions here. Walking around with the light on to begin with? Please, do so, tell me where you are and what direction your facing, I'd love to sneak behind you and bayonet or knife you.

I just don't understand the purpose of having a light. I've tried imagining situations where it would be beneficial. All I could think of is proppin your AR up using a bipod and making shadow monsters on a nearby wall.

I know this comes off as sarcastic but I really am trying to get your all's opinions. Is it just for the, "look I spent more on my AR and have more gizmos and gadgets, so I can kill you better or faster"??? Frankly I believe I can kill pretty damned quick with my $300 870 shotgun. It doesn't have fancy optics or anything.

I don't understand why you'd get a light to intimidate someone either. I read somewhere where people said you could pull out your gun and shine the light on them, it would intimidate them, partially blind them, and you wouldn't have to shoot. Well... if someone is blind how are they gonna know you didn't just pull out a maglight. I don't understand the point of buying a 2000 dollar gun, sticking another 1000 dollars in accessories on it, to "blind someone."

Face it, guns are made to shoot people, or hunt. Oh, I guess with some of these surefire's you could get lucky and trap some unwitting deer in the beams of your "flashlights" before laying waste....

Don't pull a gun on someone unless you're gonna shoot them. It should be the LAST option you bring yourself to in a situation. Not the first. At the point where I feel it's necesarry to pull out a gun, particularly an AR15, I'm gonna be thinking we're getting invaded, or zombies are rising from the dead. Last thing on my mind is blinding someone with my light.

/end rant :(

Thanks....

Nikkels



Some people who have different views on home defense use certain tools to their advantage. Some people just like gadgets. If you don't want to put a light on your gun, don't. But if you ever think, even if for one second, that you'll ever use your gun in home defense, a light is crucial.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 10:02:01 AM EDT
You have never been in a bad situation without a flashlight. You have also never shot in the dark with a gun. In all but the BEST situation (full moon, lots of ambiant light) you will miss whatever advantage you had by staying in the dark. And, most importantly, you have never had a surefire flashed in your eyes in complete darkness. When used by competent, trained person the flashlight becomes a valuable tool, almost as good as the gun it is used on.

Here's your situation: (assume you have a family, cuz if you dont now, you will eventually)

It's 3am. You and your signifigant other are in bed asleep. The door gets kicked down. Its too late to mount your NV Gear and you cant clear a house with a handheld. You grab your 870/45/AR whatever you use, walk down the hall, see movement to your right
BOOM!!!
You kill the intruder. Except the "intruder" is your son who was woke up by the noise came to get you. Granted you scared the bad guy. But if he saw the situation play out, he is about to kill you, rape any female in the house, kill them, beat your dog and steal your TV and your guns.


Now, mount a surefire on that gun you grabbed. Spin to your right, shine your kid, pull the muzzle around and blast the mofo that actually deserves it.

Tell me again why you dont think you need a light?

Just my .02...
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 10:14:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Target Identification, plain and simple.
If you can't see and identify a threat, your just wasting ammo and taking a chance on hitting a friendly.
Lights are for CQB, and not long range engagements, if you think you hear someone breaking into your house do you just shoot at the sound or do you ID the threat first?
If you just shoot, you may end up shooting a loved one that was getting a drink of water or came home late.
As for NVDs yeah they are great, but try to shoot accurately with a hand held monocular and rifle or pistol.



+1

It's all about target ID.



+ Another. I've used the PVS-7, PVS14 and UNS quite a lot for driving and MOUT, and they are not the solution for close quarters/low-light situations that flashlights are. They work well for observing and sneaking, but not indoors. For instance, I can't use my NVG's to illuminate a guy and control my weapon/cover my sector while my buddy deals with him, but with a flashlight I can. Also, all my buddier can see what I illuminate with a light, but they have no clue what I see with my NVG's. They can be used in conjunction with the PEQ's to engage targets or designate targets for team members or folks in other locations with whom you can communicate (I have even used the PEQ-2 to designate for an AC-130), but they are not so good for shooting at close range. As for lights not being intimidating, the flashlight itself isn't. However, if you suddenly blind someone with a good light they know for sure that you are at an advantage and may make choices accordingly. If they still make the wrong decision, or if it is apparent when in the beam of the flashlight that they have already made the wrong decision, you can engage with confidence. Being at a disadvantage in an armed situation is intimidating.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 10:39:23 AM EDT
light use. Target identification, room clearing. temporary blinding. Disorienting by flashing the light on and off to confuse subjects watching. Nightvision is ok but what happens when someone shines a light at you with NVG's on? I'll take my light , thanks.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:20:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 3:31:23 PM EDT by HottNikkels069]

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001:
You have never been in a bad situation without a flashlight. You have also never shot in the dark with a gun. In all but the BEST situation (full moon, lots of ambiant light) you will miss whatever advantage you had by staying in the dark. And, most importantly, you have never had a surefire flashed in your eyes in complete darkness. When used by competent, trained person the flashlight becomes a valuable tool, almost as good as the gun it is used on.

Here's your situation: (assume you have a family, cuz if you dont now, you will eventually)

It's 3am. You and your signifigant other are in bed asleep. The door gets kicked down. Its too late to mount your NV Gear and you cant clear a house with a handheld. You grab your 870/45/AR whatever you use, walk down the hall, see movement to your right
BOOM!!!
You kill the intruder. Except the "intruder" is your son who was woke up by the noise came to get you. Granted you scared the bad guy. But if he saw the situation play out, he is about to kill you, rape any female in the house, kill them, beat your dog and steal your TV and your guns.


Now, mount a surefire on that gun you grabbed. Spin to your right, shine your kid, pull the muzzle around and blast the mofo that actually deserves it.

Tell me again why you dont think you need a light?

Just my .02...




I just wanted some opinions! I came off strong to get some strong opinions :) Please, no one take offense. This is a really good point that hadn't crossed my mind. No time to mount nightvision in a sudden situation like that. Other then that, if you have time to prepare, nightvision is better then light for id targets as well. VERY good point on not having time to put nightvision on in a quick situation.

I kind of figured I could just flip on some room lights using lightswitches or something... don't really know what I'd do. If someone broke in I'd be freaked - heh. Definately would probably reactively shoot.

Guess you all convinced me of some of the pros. Think I'll get one... can anyone recommend a good one? I'm not keen on spending $500 for one. I don't need something that will work over 50 yards. It only has use for close quarters. What about a G2 with a mount or something? I only want to spend about $100ish.

Thanks people. You shed the light once again.

Nikkels
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:22:40 PM EDT
Surefire 961/2 or 951/2 series. I prefer the 961C.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:28:30 PM EDT
How much, could you guys post an average price with your recommendation. As I said, I've seen some lights go for almost a grand... I don't see spending more for a light then my gun!!! Heh

Nikkels
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:29:50 PM EDT
Those Surefire weaponlights I referred to go for the low $200's from Brightflashlights.com (see Industry section).
I got a 961C with 30 batteries and a lens cover for about $300.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:42:16 PM EDT
Wow... that's still quite a bit.

I was looking more in the 100 dollar price range lol. I'm a poor college student.

What about my G2 / mount idea from Brightflashlights?
It's only 6v but, good 'nuff.

Nikkels
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 3:52:30 PM EDT
The only reason I bought a light in the first place was for home defense. I envision other realistic use since I'm neither .mil nor LEO.

You want to be able to activate/deactivate the light without moving your firing grip. I use my left thumb just off the VFG. Other methods are possible.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 4:01:33 PM EDT
What Rocky9_5 said +1
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 4:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 4:21:03 PM EDT by markm]
It's obvious you have not taken any low light training. But I'm like you, and would NEVER pay 300 bucks for the Surefire weapon light systems. Here's a couple of light methods that I use for $75-$100 range.

left is the M3 light on the M3 light rail from GG&G. $110 total set up. right is the Surefire G2 with TDI rail and mount for about $75 total set up. BOTH quick release off of my carbean.

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:27:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 5:49:12 PM EDT by M11293]

Originally Posted By markm:
It's obvious you have not taken any low light training. But I'm like you, and would NEVER pay 300 bucks for the Surefire weapon light systems. Here's a couple of light methods that I use for $75-$100 range.

left is the M3 light on the M3 light rail from GG&G. $110 total set up. right is the Surefire G2 with TDI rail and mount for about $75 total set up. BOTH quick release off of my carbean.

photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=2597&iGalleryUnq=924&iImageUnq=33732



Just a few questions for you...

Is the G2 bright enough for general purpose room clearing?
Could you mount 2 G2s? One with the 120 Lumen lamp assembly and one with the 65 lumen?
You could use just one or both.
Is this excessive?
What about a tail cap with a pressure switch?
Will an Aimpoint wash out with such an intenesly lighted zone?

Could you give me the link to the site with the mount?

Thanks,

M11293

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:27:35 PM EDT
Another big advantage the light does is to illuminate your sights and target. The NVGs will only show you the target and does nothing to ensure your weapon is on target. You'll need either a visable or IR laser (more money). I've used NVGs from the PVS-5/7/14s and other handheld monoculars. None ever help me engage the target unless mounted on the weapon itself PVS4/10/14 (with aimpoint)/17s.

Problem I see with your $ limit is the types of mounts and locations avaible for the 870 do to recoil. I'm not up to speed on this sencerio.

CD
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 6:09:03 PM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By M11293:
Just a few questions for you...

Is the G2 bright enough for general purpose room clearing?



Absolutely.



Could you mount 2 G2s? One with the 120 Lumen lamp assembly and one with the 65 lumen?
You could use just one or both.
Is this excessive?


Yes. You could mount 2 G2's.. one on each side. I don't think it would be excessive. 65 is good for in the house. 120 would be great for outside or longer indoor distances.



What about a tail cap with a pressure switch?



Not sure... I'd assume that the pressure switches are completely compatible.



Will an Aimpoint wash out with such an intense lighted zone?



Don't know. I don't use dot sights.



Could you give me the link to the site with the mount?



here's the trick.. all from botac.com except for the M3 light RAIL which I got directly from GG&G.

Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:46:49 PM EDT
1. Target ID
2. Mounted light allows you have one hand free if needed. Imagine you suddenly have to move into a position where you need to change shooting hand - it would be one hell of mess fumbling around trying to swap your gun and light.
3. If target is blinded, then they are going to have a hard time getting you into their target zone.

Post this question on the LEO or SWAT discussion and I am sure will get a host of resons why a tactical light can be tactical.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:15:57 PM EDT
I mounted a SF 6P with clicker tailcap and anti-shock bezel. Total cost from BF was about $90. Bought the Warne scope rings at Walmart and you'd just need to get a picatinny rail which can also be found at Wallyworld. Lots of light mounted configurations in the Arfcom light section. There's also a DIY light mount on this site Maryland AR15 Shooter's Site
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:12:01 AM EDT
Nikkels

I use the M3 light on my M4 and it does very well for the price. You could also go with the M6 or Mx models and get a brighter light or a laser/light combo, but they get a little pricey. You can also find some cheap barrel mounted lights in Cheaper Than Dirt or Sprortsmans Guide. They are pretty bright and can be switched between weapons in 5 minutes or less. Both of these are less then 100 I beleive.

Sorry if i was rough on my earlier post....no offense intended or taken
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:47:31 AM EDT
PELICAN M6 ($43) in a spare 1" scope ring. Used a YHM Dovetail Angle Mount ($15) to move it to the side so my thumb can comfortably push the end cap button.

74 Lumens. Shot over 1000 rounds with this on my weapon with no problems so far. Replacement lamps are only $5.


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