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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/12/2006 6:15:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 1:51:36 PM EDT by KA3B]
Say I built a lightweight carbine type AR15.

Say I used a complete Bushmaster lower, including the trigger group, 6 position stock and spring, a Bushmaster 16 inch lightweight barrel cut down to 14.5 with a Vortex permently attached, a XXXXXXXX complete bolt/carrier assembly, and a Les Baer flat top upper with no forward assist.

Say that the first time I took it shooting after careful assembly (including headspacing) that I had all sorts of failure to extract problems.

Say I replaced the extractor spring and blue insert with a longer spring, a new blue insert and an Oly X-ring and it still had failure to extract issues.

Say I replaced the Oly EX-ring with a Defender D-ring and still had failure to extract issues.

Say then I replaced the XXXXXXXXXX bolt/carrier with a known good one from another AR15, this B/C being a complete Bushmaster B/C assembly.

Had no issues with the Busmaster B/C.

Say I then swapped out the Bushmaster B/C with a complete Olympic Arms B/C from another AR15 and it too had no issues.

Say I then placed the XXXXXXXXX B/C into both AR15's for troubleshooting and had the same failure to extract issues in those AR15's.

Say I then contacted the manufacturer of the B/C and told them it was not working correctly in the AR15 I built for that particular B/C, and it did not work in two other AR15's that were made using various parts.

Say the manufacturer told me that my problem was not with the bolt/carrier assembly but it was with the AR15's I had built using "non-milspec" parts and refused to do anything about it until I reminded them about the customer/vendor relationship and the amount of money I had spent with XXXXXXXX in the past year.

Say the manufacturer agreed to take the B/C back and did a "test" using their "mule" guns and they said it workd just fine with no problems.

Say they told me to send them my "broken" AR15 so they could fix it.

Say I refused to send my AR15 to them and instead asked that they send me a new B/C assembly or refund my money.

Say they sent me back the same B/C with a Defender D-ring installed in it.

What would you do?

I have the XXXXXXXXX B/C sitting in a tray in my garage and my spare Bushmaster B/C installed in the AR15 and it works perfect. Ran over 500 rounds through it this weekend without a problem.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:38:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:34:44 AM EDT
Make sure the gas rings are not aligned.

Make sure the EJECTOR is operating correctly.

Make sure the gas key is not bent, and is properly aligned.

Make sure the gas key is tight to the carrier.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:05:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 12:05:40 PM EDT by KA3B]

Originally Posted By CrossOfStGeorge:
Make sure the gas rings are not aligned.

Make sure the EJECTOR is operating correctly.

Make sure the gas key is not bent, and is properly aligned.

Make sure the gas key is tight to the carrier.



I did all that when it messed up the first time.
Still no go.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Does the B/C in question pass a short stroke test (single round in the chamber, fired, and the bolt locks back on the empty mag), yet leaves the spent case in the chamber/drops the spent case before the end of stroke?



I am not looking for a way to troubleshoot or fix this XXXXXXXXX B/C, I believe that the manufacturer should have not given me any shit to begin with and should have sent me a brand new B/C assembly.

If a Clot, Oly, Bushmaster and LMT B/C work in this rifle I expect that the XXXXXXX had damn well better work too.
They are not paying me to troubleshoot why it's not working, I paid them to send me a B/C assembly that works.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:34:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:58:29 PM EDT
Just a hunch...check the condition of the cam pin. If too worn, or even cracked, the bolt will have a tough time rotating correctly.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:31:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 12:33:48 AM EDT by KA3B]

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Chances are the key may just be a tad too wide/rough in the contact area sides, and may have a slight leak between the carrier key. Pulling the Key to lap it into the carrier, then polishing the key sides should solve the problem.

But Hey,
Who am I to stop you from holding your breath, jumping up and down, and then "Really Pitching a Bitch" in the trouble shooting forum?



So you are saying if you bought a brand new car and it had problems you would fix it yourself instead of the manufacturer / dealer?


That's a lot different response than what Tweak would have given.....

Had I wanted to "holding your breath, jumping up and down, and then "Really Pitching a Bitch" in the trouble shooting forum" I would have named the manufacturer of the B/C.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:32:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CrossOfStGeorge:
Just a hunch...check the condition of the cam pin. If too worn, or even cracked, the bolt will have a tough time rotating correctly.



No problems with the cam pin.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:37:37 AM EDT
Not trying to be a dick, but if you want us to agree that you're the victim of company XXXXXXX, why post it in the troubleshooting forum?

If you want technical advice, you're getting it. If you want customer service advice, try the feedback forum.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:50:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
Not trying to be a dick, but if you want us to agree that you're the victim of company XXXXXXX, why post it in the troubleshooting forum?

If you want technical advice, you're getting it. If you want customer service advice, try the feedback forum.



I want the troubleshooting/technical advice.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:24:49 AM EDT
Parts is parts. If the manufacturer tests it and can get it to work in their rifle, it works as designed.

The fact that you can't get it to work in a rifle you built means nothing other than you need to do the troubleshooting yourself. I'm sure you'll get it working rather quickly with help of others here in this forum.

If it had been a new factory-built rifle you bought that included a warranty, then you would expect and should receive immediate action by the manufacturer to fix the problem by whatever means they needed - replace it, repair it, etc.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:41:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 5:41:39 AM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:45:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
KA3B,

Do you what help in resolving why the B/C will not function correctly in the rifle you built?

Or,

Do you want help in having the supplier swap you new B/C's until you get one that will function in the rifle you built?



In true ARFcom fashion, I want both.
I am pretty sure that I know what the problem is, everyone's advice has been great and I have checked it out.

I am waiting for the manufacturer to respond to my emails and find out how they are going to resolve the issue.

Then I'll take it to the AR15 forum and, good or bad, let everyone know what's the deal and how it was taken care of.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:19:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:31:24 PM EDT
How much did the bolt carrier cost?
Buy a new one from another company, chalk it up to experience and never do business with that company again. And of course feel free to name the company and bad mouth them here.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:20:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
Buy a new one from another company, chalk it up to experience and never do business with that company again.



I agree, bend over and take it like a man.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:25:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ch0wd3r:

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
Buy a new one from another company, chalk it up to experience and never do business with that company again.



I agree, bend over and take it like a man.




Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:29:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 5:31:24 PM EDT by KA3B]

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
How much did the bolt carrier cost?



For the entire bolt/carrier assembly it was $149......

I think that the bolt carrier itself is out of spec.
It "scrapes" when inserted in ANY upper (Oly, Colt, Bushmaster X2, Fulton, Les Baer, Rock River) that I own.

I went further into the troubleshooting and found that the XXXXXX bolt assembly works good when installed into a Bushmaster or Oly carrier.

Gas key is tight, the gas tube flare is not cracked or bent.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:54:52 PM EDT
If you want to fix it yourself, find out where it is rubbing and stone the wear points till it no longer rubs. This is standard proceedure for ill fitting parts.

A magic marker works well to find interference points.

A caliper and micrometer and a known good carrier helps as well.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:13:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
Buy a new one from another company, chalk it up to experience and never do business with that company again. And of course feel free to name the company and bad mouth them here.



Better yet tell all of us who XXXXXXXXXXX is so we dont buy parts that dont work and then catch shit for not wanting to send them our rifles.



Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 7:58:14 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:04:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 2:05:50 PM EDT by KA3B]
The item in question was a Fulton "slickside" bolt/carrier assembly.



After talking to Mr. McKee of Fulton Armory I learned that the slickside B/C is not a "military" part and there may be some fitment issues.
Mr. McKee offered to refund my money or send me a "military" B/C and refund me the difference in cost.

Now that's what customer service is.

The only thing that gets me is that the first first slickside Fulton B/C works great in the same gun (and others) that the second (and third) ones don't.

So is there a problem with the first Fulton slickside B/C I bought?

My thinking is that all of the major AR15 assemblies (upper, lower, B/C) should be able to be swapped in between my AR15's, and they should fit and they should function.

The only red-headed step-child are the second and third Fulton slickside B/C assemblies.

CavVet has shot the L/W AR15 that was supposed to get the slickside, he can tell you that it works perfect with the Bushmaster B/C assembly installed.

He has also shot my other L/W AR15 with the first Fulton slickside B/C and he can tell you it works perfect.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advice.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:41:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
CavVet has shot the L/W AR15 that was supposed to get the slickside, he can tell you that it works perfect with the Bushmaster B/C assembly installed.

He has also shot my other L/W AR15 with the first Fulton slickside B/C and he can tell you it works perfect.




All your guns shoot fine...................When I shoot them!




Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:24:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
The item in question was a Fulton "slickside" bolt/carrier assembly.

www.fulton-armory.com/SSBoltCarrierGroup-300_50.jpg

After talking to Mr. McKee of Fulton Armory I learned that the slickside B/C is not a "military" part and there may be some fitment issues.



I bought a slick side from Fulton Armory, chromed. It has a "D" stamped in the side. I have not fired it yet. I hope it works.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:11:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:16:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:40:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Having had more problems with chromed keys (them being the standard size width, then built up with plating)....



Bingo.

That's all I wanted to hear from Fulton.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:49:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:02:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:03:07 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:13:26 AM EDT
I read a post about DPMS chrome bolt carriers many, many months ago. The BC was so tight that it would not slide in the upper. If I remember correctly, he fixed the problem with 400 or 600 aluminum oxide rubbing compound by working the carrier back and forth in the upper. I had a similar problem with a DPMS upper and BC. I was new to the AR building then, and did not know better about not buying DPMS parts. I used valve grinding compound to fit my carrier into the upper. The key kept hitting the inside of the upper where the rear sight is drilled through....and neither was chromed. This added to an already existing short-stroking problem. EVENTUALLY, I fixed both...after DPMS tried to fix it. I had other problems with that upper, but finally got all of them fixed, MYSELF, and it ran and grouped fine after that. I am saddened that DPMS had such low quality control. I told myself that after that experience, I would never buy DPMS parts again, UNLESS I knew that DPMS bought the parts from another vendor, and just slapped "DPMS" on it.

Had I known about this slab side carrier being of DPMS manufacture, I would not have bought it.


Well, my chromed slab side in is my retro Air Force M16 AR build, and is complete. Link here. Like I said, I have not fired it yet. It has no interferance issues. I just hope it works without problems.

If there is a next time for a need of a slab side carrier, I'll just use a USGI M16 carrier, and have it modified to AR specs, or just use a regular AR carrier and use brushed stainless steel GunKote for visual effect.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:11:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:

Had you stated from the start that you have a DPMS chrome plated B/C, this would have never gone to two pages. About a year ago, I did a write up on correcting the DPMS chrome plated B/C's (rough plated-oversize keys), and could have just referenced the post.

Just when I was starting to like you, you had to go and,
“Say", poke me with a the sharp stick and open up the old wound!



First off, I didn't want to name names when I first started this post.
Second, the only slickside bolt carrier that I know of that Fulton "makes" is the chromed one, that is what I was told when I ordered my first one.
Had I known that they offered a parkerized one I would have bought it.

YOU could have always dropped me an IM and asked who was the vendor.

I would like to read your write-up on the Fulton "made" B/C, perhaps you could tac it.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:15:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:
Well, my chromed slab side in is my retro Air Force M16 AR build, and is complete.



JFYI: The first Fulton B/C assembly I bought fits perfect (just like the Bushmaster/Colt/Oly B/C's I own).
It also functions perfect in my Colt SP1, Oly lightweight, Bushmaster SEBR and lightweight.

I bought the second one because of how well the first one works in my other AR15's.

I am still wondering if the first Fulton B/C is in spec or out of spec.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 12:55:41 PM EDT
Anyways.....

I took my trusty Dremel tool with a stiff wire wheel on it and attacked the gas key.

"Polished" the crap out of it until it slide into the receiver with no problems.

Made sure there was no buffer tube/ring clearance problems.

Took it out to the range and fired 300 rounds through it with no problems.

I might just swap it out for a "military" gas key though.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 4:24:56 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:19:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:13:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Added: Glad to hear that you got the unit up and running, even though some minor assembly was required.



It's not quite 100%, the thermelt magazines won't feed with the Fulton carrier.
But hey, they work just fine with the Bushmaster unit.

The Fulton goes into the "didn't work" drawer.
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