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Posted: 1/6/2003 7:52:21 PM EST
Would there be any issues with leaving my AR w/ the bolt locked back as if just finishing a mag?

The only issue I could think of would be on the spring... but not sure if it'd make a difference or not.

The reason I ask, is that I would prefer to store my gun with the bolt back and the safety on, so that it would be easier to just slap a mag in and press the release.

The way I store my AR (in a case), I can not fit the weapon w/ all its accessories and ammo if I leave the mag inserted. So now, it's locked and loaded (w/ a snap cap), w/ safety on.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 8:21:13 PM EST
Yeah no problem, keep an extra recoil-spring taped next to the stock, and have ball peen and punch ready to replace hammer spring.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:38:43 AM EST
A [i]snap cap[i]? What on earth for? You can dry fire these for ever (as you can all properly deigned firearms). Use a 20 round mag if you have space problems in your case. Any bump will close the bolt on your rifle, so trying to store it open is an exercise in frustration -- plus you'll never know if it's open or closed when crunch time comes. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:39:42 AM EST
And again, any bump can close the bolt, which may not necessarily be a good thing. I store mine in the opposite configuration; bolt closed with magazine inserted. Snap the bolt back and rumble.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 5:47:11 AM EST
I store mine as the post above. Rambosky
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:30:28 AM EST
Yes, this is the better way: bolt forward, magazine inserted. HOWEVER, the secret here for reliability in loading under stress/in the dark, etc., is not to have totally filled the magazine. I.e., 16-18 rds in a 20-mag, or 26-28 in a 30-mag. In that way, you are not fighting the considerable pressure being applied to the underside of the closed bolt carrier which may cause you to "short stroke" the bolt and not actually strip the first round in the mag when you let the charging handle go. Having less than a full mag also helps insure your magazine actually locks-in when loading on the run with a round already in the chamber, but having a good tactical opportunity to replace a mostly depleted mag. Never run your gun dry if you can. ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:47:38 AM EST
OK, lets be clear here. The question was not a "how do you do this?" it was... "Would there be any issues with leaving my AR w/ the bolt locked back as if just finishing a mag?" I too store my AR this way....it's bolt locked back and a magazine in the mag well. All I have to do is hit the release button and roll. I was wondering if this configuration would damage my recoil buffer, the spring or anything else in the weapon. No flames guy's, and no argument with YOUR way of doing things. HOWEVER, I like doing it the way I described above and would only want to change to your way IF my way IS causing premature wear on my AR. Thanks. Listening.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 8:47:12 AM EST
What is the possible advantage of this? You maintain all the liability of having a rifle and ammo stored together without the benefit. Klack, here I am in case you didn't know. Hmnnn hope those springs kept their tension. If you really must, and have a safe keeping system, load it and put the safety on.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 8:54:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 8:56:30 AM EST by bvmjethead]
I've heard it said here and elsewhere before that the single biggest deterrent to invasion type crimes IS the CLACK of a pump shotgun as the intruder comes down the hall or through the window. I say again...... 1. Does leaving the bolt locked back over a loaded mag hurt my AR in any way? 2. Why? 3. How? I've heard it said that leaving your mags loaded does not hurt the mag springs. It's the loading and unloading of tension that wears them out. Stands to reason this would remain constant and be the same for the buffer spring...... Anybody out there have any non-condesending, non smart assed comments? I'm REALLY curious to the answer to my question.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:14:57 AM EST
You will not wear your springs out, nor dammage the rifle. However I'm appalled that you throw out the tips given by seasoned professionals like Chuck and ColdBlue. Sound scaring the Bad Guys Sure! Then why not the sound of a charging handle being pulled back and released? As Chuck indicated its VERY easy for the rifle to be bumped (or vibrated - say something heavy dropping in the house) and the bolt slide home - unwittingly loading the rifle. By storeing it with a bolt closed on an empty chamber and a loaded magazine in it - you will know every time you pick it up you'll have to charge the weapon (simple - consistant manual of arms to train with); and as a bonus you get 'the scary sound' Something to consider.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 11:26:17 AM EST
Well, I literally don't have the option of leaving my mag inserted, unless I can get a mag (10 rounder?) that completely fits inside and doesn't protrude. I cannot find a local store that will sell a gun safe until the summer (around here they only sell safes in "season"), and am using a rifle case for my storage area. I keep this case loaded up with a lot of (what I call) essentials in case I ever had to grab it and run. These extra goodies I have in the case prevent me from inserting even a 20 round mag in the well, unless I want to remove an item or two. Also, I stored the weapon the way I first mentioned for over a month before I thought about spring damage... never had the bolt close on accident. This includes a trip down a bumpy dirt road to go shooting, several times removing the weapon from its case to inspect/show others, and moving the case throughout the home on multiple occasions. Not once did I have problems w/ bolt staying back... Yes, I realize it's a better idea to have a loaded mag in place, but unfortunately until I can get a safe or larger storage device, that's not an option. I just want to make sure in doing this that I'm not gonna damage the spring (or anything else I didn't think about) in doing so. The snap cap is because I can afford it and it certainly cant hurt. Some people say you should use them when dry firing, others not... But it doesn't hurt, and I already bought them. If there's not a problem w/ leaving the bolt back like I asked, the snap caps will just get loade into mags as "practice" rounds. Thanks for those with input.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 12:35:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By steenkybastage: The snap cap is because I can afford it and it certainly cant hurt. Some people say you should use them when dry firing, others not... But it doesn't hurt, and I already bought them. If there's not a problem w/ leaving the bolt back like I asked, the snap caps will just get loade into mags as "practice" rounds.
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SB, Do I understand you correctly - you leave the bolt back AND have a snap cap in the chamber?? This most assuredly CAN cause a problem (especially if Mr Murphy is making house calls). Before you can load the rifle you chamber will need to be cleared. At 0'Dark thirty in the morning did you remember to do that? Even if you did what if it gets caught up - requiring you to clear the rifle before using it? Precious seconds wasted. I see no advantage to leaving the snap-cap in place - but I CAN see problems should you need to use the rifle in a hurry.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 12:58:41 PM EST
naw, for that month or so I left the bolt back, I had nothing loaded at all, but the bolt back and saftety on. When I thought about possible damage to the spring, I stopped leaving bolt back, and just had a snap cap and bolt closed on it. What I meant is... if there's no potential damage w/ leaving the bolt open for months on end... I'll stop leaving snap cap in, and instead put snap caps in a mag to test feeding and loading in the dark, etc... So, right now... yes, snap cap in, bolt closed, safety on. Before... bolt back, nothing loaded, safety on.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:32:08 PM EST
I think you are a little overly worried about needing to use the rifle in an emergency. As worried as you seem you will be lucky to survive a home invasion because of the time its going to take to get the gun out of the rifle case in the first place. [>:/]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:47:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 1:49:59 PM EST by steenkybastage]
worried? Ok. Why am I worried? getting the gun out of the rifle case is more time consuming then a gunsafe/cabinet/closet exactly how? pop one latch to open the case, grab the gun, insert mag and release the catch. But being worried (not sure how or why yet) will make this impossible. Thanks for the input. and BTW, my pistol is what I'd grab first in the middle of the night, not the rifle.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:10:49 PM EST
We were trained on the M16 to slowly pull the bolt back and slow forward using the bolt advance so that the bad guys can't hear. Shhhh!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:30:57 PM EST
(I'm off topic here, but the hijack is getting interesting...) About storing your AR with the bolt open on a loaded magazine: [b]Don't do it.[/b] It creates a dangerous situation in which (particularly at night) you pick up your rifle, bang it on something, and the bolt closes, chambering a round. If you don't believe me, take your AR (With an empty magazine, I don't want you shooting yourself. Or mag with snap-cap in it.), lock the bolt open. Hold it by the muzzle a few inches off the ground and drop it, butt-first, on the ground. Be ready to catch it once it hits. It will close. Instead of storing your rifle with the bolt closed on a snap-cap with the safety on, you should try storing it on "rack safe." Close the bolt on the snap-cap, then flip the safety selector to FIRE. Now pull the trigger. The selector will not return to SAFE until you re-cock the hammer. Now, when you pick up your rifle, you can try to push the selector to SAFE, but it won't move, and you instantly know what condition your weapon is in. This is alot better on the springs. Not that it really hurts them to be kept that way, except maybe on a true collapsable stock, because the buffer is shorter and so the buffer spring is shorter. You might want to get a haversack or something to carry gear in. If you've got so much stuff in your rifle case that you can't carry it with a magazine in the magwell, you should try re-arranging or something. Just my two cents.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:12:38 PM EST
I know... I [b]really[/b] need a better way of carrying the thing around. Right now I have 13 US Thermold mags, 2 of which are loaded, 2 colt 20's, binocs, a spotting scope, breakfree clp, 2x SA battlepacks, harris bipod, cleaning rod w/ patches and brush, small maglite, 2 lighters, pack of matches, water purification tablets, deet, peltor tac7 headsets, 2 cheap radios, extra batteries, glasses, diving knife w/ sheath... I'm sure I'm forgetting a thing or two... but it's packed. If I ditch the scope, I could leave a mag inserted...(removing anything else won't help... as the scope can only fit in that area) I've tried re-arranging quite a few times... and this is the best I can come up with just to get this tuff all in (before I had less). most of the little things are really just filling up holes where nothing decent sized will fit (like a mag or larger item). If I had a case for my scope I'd just put it and some of the smaller stuff in a backpack I use... but I don't wanna rough it up w/o a case. Thnx for the input, It'll go back to no mag/bolt open till I get a safe or other "real" storage solution.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:34:40 PM EST
get yourself a hand gun with a high cap mag, if you want to be that ready. the last thing i'm going to go for at night if an intruder comes to my house is an AR15. no flame intended
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:07:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By catman: get yourself a hand gun with a high cap mag, if you want to be that ready. the last thing i'm going to go for at night if an intruder comes to my house is an AR15. no flame intended
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Like my Beretta 92 elite w/ 2x 15's and 2x 10's? I already said I would go for my (readily available) pistol in case of a sudden disturbance. ::::::::::::::::::: All I wanted to know is if the fargen steenky bastage of a spring will be damaged if the sorry cork-sucking bolt was left back in the locked position, you fargen iceholes! ::::::::::::::::::: for those who dont know, that's all meant as a joke... referring to humorous lines from the movie "johnny dangerously", Not actually insulting anyone here [;)] To hear the actual lines, visit: [url]http://www.soundamerica.com/sounds/movies/J-R/Johnny_Dangerously/[/url] Or do a search, there's so much more good material out there!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 5:29:48 PM EST
Keep her locked & loaded, ready to rock and roll! If you hear some intruder roll over flip the saftey off and have at it, if you wait to load her and chamber a round you may be the dead one, yeah chambering a round may be intimidating but do you want to live or die. But if you just want to store her, I keep her with her bolt forward, also in my unit when we racked(stored) them we kept the hammer down on an empty chamber, I don't think it really matters.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:25:05 AM EST
Isn't there a safety issue here also? With respect to leaving the AR with the bolt locked back and and with a mag inserted....even though it is somewhat remote there is always the possibility of a slam-fire when the bolt is released.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 8:38:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By ddc: even though it is somewhat remote there is always the possibility of a slam-fire when the bolt is released.
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Ever seen a slam-fire when you released the bolt on the range when you were using commercial ammo? Only slam fires I've heard of were from reloads where the primer sat too high. The AR's design prevents the firing pin from hitting the primer until the bolt is locked in place.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 9:17:14 AM EST
Forest, I have never seen a slam-fire. It may have been more appropriate for someone of my limited experience to have phrased the statement as a question, i.e. "It is my understanding that when the bolt is released that there is a small possibility of a slam-fire; how much of a concern should that be when storing the weapon with the bolt open and a mag inserted?" Thanks, don.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:31:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:40:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By ddc: Isn't there a safety issue here also? With respect to leaving the AR with the bolt locked back and and with a mag inserted....even though it is somewhat remote there is always the possibility of a slam-fire when the bolt is released.
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Well, with a closed bolt, pulling the handle back and releasing (in order to load a round) presents the exact same situation as leaving the bolt back and releasing the catch. If one is really concerned about that, leaving the bolt back won't make a difference. For that matter, after you fire a round, the bolt blows back and then re-chambers another round... that would give you just as much chance as a slam fire, too... So Troy, buy a few hammer springs, eh? Symptoms of a weakening hammer spring will be what? Or is just a working/broke type thing? Thnx for the input, I didn't really consider the hammer at all... just thought about the recoil spring for the bolt.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 2:41:29 PM EST
What's the GD problem that you're trying to solve with snap caps and spare springs? Bolt forward, hammer down, safety off. Insert magazine. Pull charging handle. That's it. Practice. You're not going to gain any time with some other method. Your springs will be fine either way. Stop worrying.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:17:23 PM EST
I wasn't gonna post this story, but this thread's direction leaves me little choice. I've been storing my Bushy with the bolt locked back, dust cover closed, safety on, and a 30 round mag in place. Last night I was messing with the rifle, trying out the fit of an Eagle Industries scope cover from my .308, to verify its fit (it fits quite well, btw). [-Insanely stupid part-] For some inexplicable reason, I'd left that loaded 30 round mag in place...maybe I was thinking it needed to be there to make sure it didn't get in the way of the the cover's straps...whatever, there it was. I run the middle strap of the cover through the trigger guard (too lazy to merely lengthen the strap enough to get it underneath), then clicked the strap into its other end. Looking at how nicely the pad fit, I [i]patted[/i] it...not squeezed, not bumped, merely a gentle pat...right over the bolt release lever. [b]SSSSHCLACK![/b] I'm now standing there with a loaded weapon and a f*cking strap [i]under tension[/i] right in front of the trigger. I tried to look at the safety to veryify it was in the "NO BANG" position, but the cover was in the way. I carefully (and shakily) slid a finger under the cover and verified that the safety was set to BANG. Right about here was where I started wondering if I had in fact shot myself and just hadn't noticed. I pushed the lever to SAFE, then very carefully pressed the mag release and pulled the mag free. I then opened the rear of the cover so I could pull the charging handle and eject the chambered round, which wasn't as easy as it should have been because the cover was over the ejection port, but dumb luck continued to shine on me because the round dropped out on the first try. I pulled the handle 3 more times to make sure, then disengaged the strap's clip and got it away from the trigger. Just then my wife comes out into the shop. She looks at me kinda funny and I realize I look really, really scared. All I could say was "I just did a really stoopid thing." I've decided I'm no longer storing my weapon with the bolt locked back. Too much bad ju-juu. (I'm [b]not[/b] saying "Since this happened to me it could happen to you." I'm merely relating how I came to my decision.)
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:12:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By LarryLove: What's the GD problem that you're trying to solve with snap caps and spare springs? Bolt forward, hammer down, safety off. Insert magazine. Pull charging handle. That's it. Practice. You're not going to gain any time with some other method. Your springs will be fine either way. Stop worrying.
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Perhaps I should spend my time worrying about people's reading comprehention around here. The question at had is will it hurt or not to leave the bolt back, not "help, why am I so worried?" If I wanted your opinion on how or why I worry so much I will be sure to ask it. Until then, just answer the actual question, please. If you'd like to post an actual answer [b]THEN[/b] tell me I worry too much, I'll accept tthat. [;)] -------------------- El Roto, Did you run and get a clean pair of underwear after that? [:O] I make it a habit to never insert a loaded mag into any of my weapons unless I'm somewhere I want to shoot. If at home I put a snap cap in... Your story is a good example of why I don't like to load up unless I'm ready to shoot. (or was that "I dont like to shoot up unless I'm loaded..."?)
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:32:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 7:39:20 PM EST
The slam-fire concern is not an issue when you are the one consciously releasing the bolt because when you consciously released the bolt you had the muzzle in a safe direction, right? The slam-fire concern is an issue when you are driving down the road in your pickup truck and you hit that weird bump that causes the bolt to be released. So say your gun is laying behind your front seat and this happens then the very least that will happen is you blow a hole in your door. The worst case scenario is what? You tell me. Of course maybe the possibility of a slam-fire in this situation is so remote that it is a non-issue; no one seems to be concerned about it so maybe I should stop worrying about it. I'm not the expert here; I'm just presenting a possible scenario and asking a question.
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 5:54:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/9/2003 5:56:36 AM EST by davkenrem]
I don't know how may of these "just in case" threads I've read over the yrs. Where do you guys live that you need to ward off attackers with an assualt rifle? I think allot of this is hoping they get an excuse to use their gun. Buy an alarm, get a dog, Lock your door, build a safe room. My guess that less than 1% of the posters on this board live anywhere remotely dangerous enough to need a loaded assault weapon. If you have to ask about damage to your gun by leaving cocked for a "just in case" scenario, you don't have enough experince with the weapon to use it in self defense. The handling of a weapon for self defense is a well practiced art that doenst come from shooting milk jugs at the range, It comes from 1000's of reptitions and drills in the use and handling of said weapon. Which include making the weapon ready for used rapidly from a COLD state. If you need a weapon to defend you life you don't want to worry that you damaged the springs from storing to long and its not going to run. BOLT CLOSED, MAG INSERTED, WEAPON ON SAFE, STORE ACCORDINGLY.
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 2:17:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/9/2003 2:19:24 PM EST by coldblue]
Forgive me for lossing track of your actual question. If the spring is a good one, it will take a long time to take a "set", but it will (years+years) take one. Measure the spring when new, and monthly record its free lenght on a chart. After 12 months, what has changed? Does depending on a spring that's, say, 10% shorter than 12 months ago fill you with confidence? So one of the postings above about periodically replacing the spring is a good one. That being said, how do you know your next spring is even half as good as the one you replaced? You don't. That is because spring making is still a bit of a black art. I had a fully loaded 1911 magazine loaded in my safe for over 3 years waiting for a courts-martial that never happened. It was a very well used magazine with near all the finish worn off as this was a guard post magazine. Before I left this assignment, I loaded the mag and fired all seven rounds successfuly. However, all that proved was that this particular mag was good enough for me to keep. I trust springs just a little more than I trust electronics. My spare set of mags (for any weapon) rest in a storage container in their field stripped condition, i.e., spring freely expanded to its full length. I know this is a bit over kill, but I learned a long time ago in shooting to eliminate as many variables as possible so you could concentrate on sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger squeeze. ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 2:51:19 PM EST
I think I win the readiness contest. I sleep with my 12 ga. Mossberg loaded with 3" Buck. AND THE WINNER OF THE REDNECK READINESS CONTEST IS..... PATRICK!!!!! Dead serious, though. For the record on the end of the first page of this topic, a sawed-off 12 ga. can't be beat for home security! You don't have to worry about missing so that the criminal can come back and sue you for your ass, dog, wife, and car. Also, if you are so concerned about using it at night at close range, a flip-up sight would do better than a scope on your AR. Even if you DO have the cool Generation III nightvision... [;D] Not trying to be a smartass, just a good suggestion. Trying not to be an a$$hole, Patrick
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 3:33:01 PM EST
El I don't think I would have had the balls to tell that story. What a hoot! Until I solve, this weekend, my safe over capacity issue, I have two AR's and a SKS in my bedroom. I bump into them when I get up to pee all the time. No way would I consider having them loaded in any fashion. The best under the pillow is a handgun and even then I wouldn't recommend one chambered. I once took a safety off a Smith 9mm in my sleep and lost it. Took me quite a bit to figure how to put the new one back on. Puling the trigger would be much easier to do in your sleep. Explain that one to the judge or undertaker. Besides a good, thunk, bolt forward is a great deterent. It's one of the main features of a 12 gauge pump. Besides haven't you seen those them there Army movies where they always pull the bolt back before they kill the bad guys.
Link Posted: 1/10/2003 8:03:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/10/2003 8:04:47 AM EST by Forest]
Originally Posted By ddc: The slam-fire concern is not an issue when you are the one consciously releasing the bolt because when you consciously released the bolt you had the muzzle in a safe direction, right?
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The slam-fire concern is an issue when you are driving down the road in your pickup truck and you hit that weird bump that causes the bolt to be released.
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How are the two situations different? Other than the first one the bolt is actually a bit further back and hitting with a bit more force. Unless you have reloads - slam fires are a non-issue.
Link Posted: 1/10/2003 9:54:00 AM EST
Forest, How are the two situations different? I thought I made that obvious. In the first situation you are conciously releasing the bolt and when you did so you had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, right? If a slam-fire occurs then no harm, no foul. In the second situation the bolt is released by some outside force and the muzzle can be pointed anywhere. Aren't those two quite different situations? The first situation is safe. The second one is potentially very dangerous if slam-fires are possible. But if slam-fires are such a remote possibility then I'll stop worrying about it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2003 11:27:18 AM EST
Yes the muzzle control (potential problem) situations are very different - but the capability to cause a slam fire are not. The odds of a slam fire with factory ammo are so remote its not worth worrying about it. BTW if you're carrying the AR in a vehicle you might as well carry it with the bolt closed. First bump you hit will close it anyway. For safey's sake you should leave the rifle in a configuration you KNOW it will be in when you pick it up. Storing with a bolt open you'll never know when you pick it up if the bolt is open or already closed (unless you're using a chamber indicator of some sort). Storing the rifle with the bolt closed you KNOW it will still be closed when you pull it out.
Link Posted: 1/10/2003 3:25:05 PM EST
Forest, Good enough, we are on the same page. (and I'll stop worrying about slam-fires...) Thanks for the feedback, Don.
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