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Posted: 11/15/2011 9:31:39 PM EDT
Hello all,

Just joined this forum because I am getting a AR-15 for myself to use on Duty. I feel that Having your own rifle makes you more likely to train with it and keeping it in good condition. That being said I am looking for a good optic for this rifle (Smith and Wesson M&P) and would like any input on quality brands. I'm not looking to spend more on the optic than I did on the rifle because hey I'm not the Military, just your average small town police officer with bills to pay. I was looking for something that can be used with my flip up iron sights should the optic get damaged or fail. I have heard EOTECH makes something along those lines but i'm not sure on the specifics. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 11/15/2011 9:38:51 PM EDT
for a budget minded officer, i'd suggest the aimpoint PRO.

after a quick search, heres a few vendors

http://www.skdtac.com/Aimpoint-PRO-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-p/aim.310.htm

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1814.php

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/AIM12841.aspx

Link Posted: 11/15/2011 9:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2011 10:00:12 PM EDT by thepinkmist]
you could use a scope, you jsut need to get something liek a larue mount that allows you to quickly take the scope off and flip the irons up. 1-4x scopes are perfectly fine at CQB distances, but you can also have BDC's out to 600+ yards, but it is a little heavier and bulkier than a red dot. if you want a red dot, aimpoint or eotech. eotechs are generally more preferred because of the reticle and the more open display, but they have to be turned on before use and batteries need to be maintained more frequently than aimpoints. aimpoints are just a simple dot in a tube but run for years on a single battery. for a patrol rifle, an aimpoint is probably the better option, since you dont have to worry about batteries or turning the optic on its always ready to go. you really should find a way to peek through an eotech and aimpoint before you decide tho, they are completely different optics and people have their preferences. i'm sure other guys in your department or a local gun store/gun show will have some for you to fondle.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 1:09:21 AM EDT
Aimpoint Pro in a Larue mount and call it a day.

Link Posted: 11/16/2011 2:27:54 AM EDT
The aimpoint PRO seems like a good choice. I personally used the eotech on my duty rifle for the quick engagement reticule in close quarters. I also liked the added shield over it to protect it when bouncing in and out of the rack and any other obstacles it can bump into. Most if any call i would be going to that required a long gun would be within 30 feet, 100 yards or possibly 200 at the most. that said try em both out before you purchase! it is invaluable and can save you a $500 "mistake" (never a mistake to buy a quality optic, can always buy another rifle). i almost bought a trijicon with out a flinch cause i heard they are the best and the only one worth getting....then the guy at the gun shop put an eotech in my hand and i was opened up to the world of the ar15 . a lot of choices out there, and if your going to depend your life on it then it has to be what works for you. I am now looking into an aimpoint for a different project im on. The aimpoint PRO is one of the best priced optics out there right now especially with a leo discount on top. both aimpoint and eotech can be set up to co witness with your iron sights. Then you dont have to fiddle with a latch to remove them if they fail at the worst possible time. Still a good idea to eventually get a quick detach lever for what ever optic you get. Good luck on your hunt for the right optic.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 3:51:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2011 4:00:26 AM EDT by LT211]
For patrol work I would either go Aimpoint Pro or EOtech. If you go EOTech I would highly recommend the 556 for longer battery life (over the xp series) and the location of the controls(on the side). Both are excellent choices and you cant go wrong with either one. If either one goes out (highly unlikely) just flip up your rear BUIS and your GTG. There is no need to remove your optic. I also prefer co witness, in that the red dot is in line with the iron sights. This works out well when you flip up your irons and check that your red dot is in line with your front post (co witness). I also run a SureFire Scout 600 at 11:00 and use my support hand to activate it (thumb activation). I have tried many set ups and this works out best for me. Just my experience and honest opinion. Gotta get to work...Stay safe!
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 4:46:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cop1211:
Aimpoint Pro in a Larue mount and call it a day.



This......
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 5:04:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15-5O:
Originally Posted By cop1211:
Aimpoint Pro in a Larue mount and call it a day.



This......


What they said.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 2:18:12 PM EDT
I'd say look on the EE and find an Aimpoint M2 or M3 –– they can be found for good prices, throw it in an Lt-129 mount and you'll be good.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 4:17:29 PM EDT
I would say being a police officer and having your life on the line buy a new optic, serve you longer and have more confidence in it.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 4:44:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 4:58:05 PM EDT
There's currently a Group Buy going on in the Equipment Exchange on the Aimpoint H-1. They are first come first serve. Let's just say your getting a pricey optic at a budget price.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 5:34:29 PM EDT
the other day i sold an EOTECH 512 to an officer. When i met him he had his rifle with him and it had an aimpoint. I asked him why he wanted to get the eotech and he said that he preffered the circle and dot reticle.


Aimpoints are awesome but so are eotechs'. I would go to a local shop and look through the aimpoint and eotech see what you like. With both you can still have the back up iron sights and simply flip the rear sight up and use it should the reticle's fail.

btw: that is my cat that i still have and the gun was empty
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 6:51:58 PM EDT
I have an Aimpoint ML3 in a lt-150 mount on my duty rifle. I really like the Aimpoint line for their battery life. I would look at the Aimpoint PRO with the great price they are at.
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 9:59:38 PM EDT
poor cat
Link Posted: 11/16/2011 10:03:08 PM EDT
Thanks a bunch for all the info. I was very surprised to see so many responces so fast. most forums i wait a month for anything. Looks like Aimpoint is taking lead in most thoughts. I appreciate the info again from all and will deff. be looking into everything. As it was posted previously, anything your putting your life into the hands of best be the best. To all the Officers that responded stay safe and to all others be safe as well and DON'T SHOOT YOUR CAT! any updates also throw me a line on here.
Link Posted: 11/17/2011 12:31:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2011 12:32:39 AM EDT by Glockfan]
Originally Posted By ben123:
the other day i sold an EOTECH 512 to an officer. When i met him he had his rifle with him and it had an aimpoint. I asked him why he wanted to get the eotech and he said that he preffered the circle and dot reticle.
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa444/benrod123/IMAG0077.jpg

Aimpoints are awesome but so are eotechs'. I would go to a local shop and look through the aimpoint and eotech see what you like. With both you can still have the back up iron sights and simply flip the rear sight up and use it should the reticle's fail.

btw: that is my cat that i still have and the gun was empty


Back before I knew better I had an Eotech on my patrol rifle. I recommened one to another officer as well. Well he no longer works for us now and he calls me telling me his Eotech has crapped out with almost no use. Tried new batteries etc. I had to send one of the 3 Eotechs I owned in due to zero shifting issues. The battery life was never what they advertized and I began to hate the fact they turn themselves off. 8 hours does not work well with a 10 hour patrol shift. Sorry but you can keep yur Eocrap. For a red dot on a patrol rifle AImpoint is the best choice. That said I run a TR24 1-4x variable scope.
Pat
Link Posted: 11/17/2011 7:56:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2011 8:10:05 AM EDT by jadams951]
Every experienced AR shooter in every AR training class I go to all repeat the same thing. The ones that have used Eotechs alot have the same thing to say. Eotech battery life sucks and they crap out alot. YMMV
Link Posted: 11/17/2011 10:01:06 AM EDT
Aimpoint PRO or Micro H-1/T-1 for a patrol rifle. Eotechs have a great CQB reticle but, IMHO, are more geared towards Direct Action/SRT/SWAT units that have a ready supply of batteries and generally have time to prepare for a direct assault/raid. Patrol tends to respond to a rapidly expanding shit storm and need to be able to respond effectively, immediately. Unless you can dedicate to replacing your batteries on a frequent/discplined basis than an Aimpoint that can be left on for years is a better option.

I still change out my battery every year on my Micro T-1. Cheap insurance.

Whichever you go with save up and get some good training (beyond your Departments Patrol Rifle). Push your gear hard and find out what works and what doesn't. Try to keep an open mind and not get attached to any one piece of kit until you run it hard. I had a weapon light on my duty handgun that worked fine until it failed in some dynamic, low light training, where it was left on during some fast, sustained shooting. Damn thing turned into a strobe on me. Twice. I had previously used it with no problem for multiple searchs, changed the batteries regularly, and had used it through night quals (all 5, slow, shots....) for over a year with no problems. That light has been replaced on my duty gun.

I've found that a lot of gear that holds up to a certain point fails in real world use or harsher, more realistic training. From personal experience I have seen certain lights and optics fail more often than others. Dead fresh batteries, failed mounting systems, whacky circuits, wandering zeros, etc.

I only use/recommend Aimpoint and Surefire products now. Buy once, cry once.

Stay Safe,
Rob
Link Posted: 11/17/2011 10:18:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2011 10:38:06 AM EDT by thornejc]
I would either go with the Aimpoint PRO or the EOTech 512. I have run both optics extensively and have no problem with using either. I do understand that they both have strengths and they both have weaknesses.

A lot of people talk about how unreliable EOTechs are .... that is way overplayed. Granted, the Aimpoint will be less likely to fail than the EOTech because less technology goes into the optic and the more complex something is, the more things there are to go wrong. However it is extremely unlikely that you will buy a new EOTech that you take care of and have it fail on you. Neither the Aimpoint or the EOTech are immune from going down.

Battery life is pretty self explanatory... an Aimpoint PRO will run for 30,000hrs continuous while the EOTech 512 will run 1,000hrs continuous. This is due to the high power drain of the EOTech's laser over the less demanding LED of the Aimpoint. I never leave my optic on...no reason IMO. I change my batteries in my EOTech 553 every 4 months (I could go 8) and the battery in my Aimpoint PRO every 2 years just to ensure I don't make one of the most rookie mistakes ever...letting a battery die. It is easy to change batteries, with the EOTech you are using AAs which are really easy to find ... with the Aimpoint you are using some weird battery so you might have to search for it a little more. I think it is ridiculous to have you sole argument for an optic be the battery life but that being said the Aimpoint definitely is ahead in that category.

Field of view / situation awareness : this has more to do with the location that you mount the optic than the optic itself. The further forward the optic is mounted, the better you will be able to see what is going on around you while still being on the weapon. Although I am not bothered by the Aimpoint, the FOV of the EOTech is a little more favorable IMO.

Reticle: This is definitely debated because the bottom line is it comes down to personal preference and what situations the weapon is going to be used in. IMO the EOTech reticle is much more versatile. The 65moa circle makes close range (house clearing type events) engagements really quick and effective. The Aimpoint is not significantly slower but it is simply a dot (2moa) and it takes your brain a fraction of a sec more to locate it. Both Aimpoints and EOTechs are CQB optics...when you get on that outer limit of CQB (200-250m) I have found that I can be slightly more precise with my EOTech than my Aimpoint...but this is natural...you are expected to shoot 2moa with a 2moa dot and 1moa with a 1moa dot. I don't shoot 1 or 2moa at 250m but i do get tighter patterns using the 1moa dot of the EOTech. However, if you do not shoot with both eyes open, the 65moa circle can wash out the target at these outer limits in low light conditions....also, if you are not well practiced with the EOTech, in dynamic situations, the reticle can complicate matters. Bottom line is you need to have a lot of practice with the optic you use but Aimpoints are somewhat more user friendly. Another good thing about the EOTech that the reticle gives you some range finding capabilities (more important for military than law enforcement). You will have more brightness settings with your EOTech but your Aimpoint will be night vision compatible. You will need to get an EOTech 552 if you really need the NV.

Aimpoint PRO or EOTech 512 are probably your best options. If you get the Aimpoint there is absolutely no reason to spend the extra money on a LaRue mount. LaRue makes very nice products but they have a high price tag to go with it. If I bought a CompM3 I would buy a LaRue mount but the QRPII that comes with the PRO is more than sufficient. It returns to zero very well, it is not too heavy (weight is more important to military as well...you will never be able to tell the difference in weight between the LaRue and the QRPII). You should really try to go look at the choices in person before you make a decision. Which ever one you like better go with it...these mil spec optics are all good to go and personal preference is really what it comes down too as long as you understand the shortcomings of what you have on your rifle.
Link Posted: 11/17/2011 10:46:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thornejc:
I would either go with the Aimpoint PRO or the EOTech 512. I have run both optics extensively and have no problem with using either. I do understand that they both have strengths and they both have weaknesses.

A lot of people talk about how unreliable EOTechs are .... that is way overplayed. Granted, the Aimpoint will be less likely to fail than the EOTech because less technology goes into the optic and the more complex something is, the more things there are to go wrong. However it is extremely unlikely that you will buy a new EOTech that you take care of and have it fail on you. Neither the Aimpoint or the EOTech are immune from going down.

Battery life is pretty self explanatory... an Aimpoint PRO will run for 30,000hrs continuous while the EOTech 512 will run 1,000hrs continuous. This is due to the high power drain of the EOTech's laser over the less demanding LED of the Aimpoint. I never leave my optic on...no reason IMO. I change my batteries in my EOTech 553 every 4 months (I could go 8) and the battery in my Aimpoint PRO every 2 years just to ensure I don't make one of the most rookie mistakes ever...letting a battery die. It is easy to change batteries, with the EOTech you are using AAs which are really easy to find ... with the Aimpoint you are using some weird battery so you might have to search for it a little more. I think it is ridiculous to have you sole argument for an optic be the battery life but that being said the Aimpoint definitely is ahead in that category.

Field of view / situation awareness : this has more to do with the location that you mount the optic than the optic itself. The further forward the optic is mounted, the better you will be able to see what is going on around you while still being on the weapon. Although I am not bothered by the Aimpoint, the FOV of the EOTech is a little more favorable IMO.

Reticle: This is definitely debated because the bottom line is it comes down to personal preference and what situations the weapon is going to be used in. IMO the EOTech reticle is much more versatile. The 65moa circle makes close range (house clearing type events) engagements really quick and effective. The Aimpoint is not significantly slower but it is simply a dot (2moa) and it takes your brain a fraction of a sec more to locate it. Both Aimpoints and EOTechs are CQB optics...when you get on that outer limit of CQB (200-250m) I have found that I can be slightly more precise with my EOTech than my Aimpoint...but this is natural...you are expected to shoot 2moa with a 2moa dot and 1moa with a 1moa dot. I don't shoot 1 or 2moa at 250m but i do get tighter patterns using the 1moa dot of the EOTech. However, if you do not shoot with both eyes open, the 65moa circle can wash out the target at these outer limits in low light conditions....also, if you are not well practiced with the EOTech, in dynamic situations, the reticle can complicate matters. Bottom line is you need to have a lot of practice with the optic you use but Aimpoints are somewhat more user friendly. Another good thing about the EOTech that the reticle gives you some range finding capabilities (more important for military than law enforcement). You will have more brightness settings with your EOTech but your Aimpoint will be night vision compatible. You will need to get an EOTech 552 if you really need the NV.

Aimpoint PRO or EOTech 512 are probably your best options. If you get the Aimpoint there is absolutely no reason to spend the extra money on a LaRue mount. LaRue makes very nice products but they have a high price tag to go with it. If I bought a CompM3 I would buy a LaRue mount but the QRPII that comes with the PRO is more than sufficient. It returns to zero very well, it is not too heavy (weight is more important to military as well...you will never be able to tell the difference in weight between the LaRue and the QRPII). You should really try to go look at the choices in person before you make a decision. Which ever one you like better go with it...these mil spec optics are all good to go and personal preference is really what it comes down too as long as you understand the shortcomings of what you have on your rifle.


The reason to leave your optic on is that is one less thing to have to do when you need your rifle in a hurry. When you are grabbing your gun out of the rack on a felony stop you don't want to be fucking with buttons to get your optic on and set to the right intensity. Also the best mounts are Larue and there is plenty of reasons to use them. You can remove your optic when you clean the rifle and then put it back on. As for the Eotech if you must have one avoid the 512 get one of the models with the batteries mounted sideways they have less issues.Also as for Eotech issues they are not over played if anything they are underplayed by their fans.
Pat
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 2:05:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 2:07:39 AM EDT by DFWpiggy]
i carry my personal ar15 in my patrol unit when on duty

currently using the aimpoint micro in a larue qd mount but i used the eotech in the past (I due not try to push either optic, it is my preference)

I suggest the micro due to smaller size and less likely to bang around or snag something (it can also take a beating from hell), however if your budget does not allow for micro the Aimpoint PRO will be great, i can not attest to the duarbility of Eotech because i have never dropped one or slammed it in my car door (slammed the micro 3 times)
i chose aimpoint because i like the battery life and the EOtech reticle seems to hurt my eyes, i tend to focus on the reticle rather than look through it, but i will admit the reticle has its advantages

try both before you make a purchase, see which you can focus on quicker and pull tighter groups with, i do like the eotech 1moa dot but holographic just aint for me
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:37:11 PM EDT
I personally have an EOtech on my duty (department provided) gun. They will not let you change anything on the gun, but the EOtech is good.

I would prefer a 1-4x illumination scope. I would like to put the trijicon TR24 on my rifle. Its the best of both worlds. You can use it on 1x like a red dot, or dial in magnification for distance shooting (ie... barricaded gunman, active shooter). It of course will weigh slightly more than the EOtech though. If you do go with a 1-4x make sure it had good glass for low light.

Either way you can't go wrong
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:48:38 PM EDT
My vote goes for eotech i much prefer the reticle.

Honestly the newer eotechs have very few issues, i havent seen any posted here.

Also 90% of eotech issues have been battery drain from the ncell models and the bad contacts they had a few years back

They have fixed all those issues
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