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Posted: 9/9/2004 11:07:48 PM EST
Comparing the new Larue handguard to the Knights URX II, what advantiges or disadvantiges do each of these quadrails have over one another? To my knowledge, they are both to Picatinny spec, they both are free-floating, and they both have a top-rail aligned with the upper receiver.

Does anyone have input on their differences?

Thanx.
Sammy
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:51:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 4:01:03 AM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By selfishselfless:
Does anyone have input on their differences?



The biggest differences that come to mind are the Larue is available now, relatively easy to install, and very reasonably priced. The KAC URX II on the other hand, is very rare and hard to find. It also requires you to either buy a complete KAC upper or have it professionally installed.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 4:46:57 AM EST
Besides the above points, the URX II has a continuous rail with no interruption for the barrel nut. You can also remove the lower section of the URXII for cleaning and maintenance.

Wes from MSTN had some interesting notes on how the URXII made barrel installation more user-friendly; but I don't recall them off the top of my head.

Overall, I'd say the Larue compares more favorably against the FF-RAS and similar tubes than against continuous rails setups like the MRP or URXII.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 5:32:42 AM EST

Wes from MSTN had some interesting notes on how the URXII made barrel installation more user-friendly; but I don't recall them off the top of my head.


Interesting. Wes, if you see this: Can barrels be swapped out by end users with the URX II in place or does it need to be sent back to someone such as your self with access to Knight's propritary tools?
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 5:50:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 5:52:55 AM EST by Stainless]

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:

Wes from MSTN had some interesting notes on how the URXII made barrel installation more user-friendly; but I don't recall them off the top of my head.


Interesting. Wes, if you see this: Can barrels be swapped out by end users with the URX II in place or does it need to be sent back to someone such as your self with access to Knight's propritary tools?



just some help till wes gets here...

No, barrels can not be swapped out by the end user... because of the way the URX2 attaches to the upper.

The URX2 IS THE BARREL NUT. It is "screwed" directly to the upper receiver. Then it is backed off until the top rail of the URX is in allignment with the top rail of the upper receiver. A special device is placed on the rails, alligning them, while a "jam nut" is slid down the barrel and screwed on... locking the URX in place, with.... you guessed it... another "special tool".

As of right now, i have only seen a URX2 come one of two ways... from KAC directly(on a complete KAC weapon), or from MSTN (on an MSTN supplied upper).

KevinB is the only person i know on this board who has a URX2. He likes it. Here is his review...
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=195765&page=1

edited to add quote from MSTN...

THE URX II DOES INDEED "SCREW ON" TO THE UPPER RECEIVER ALL THE WAY, AND THEN BACKED OFF AS NECESSARY TO PLACE ITS TOP RAIL IN ALIGNMENT WITH THE UPPER RECEIVER'S. THE URX II IS THEN HELD PARALLEL TO THE UPPER RECEIVER BY A PAIR OF SPECIAL FIXTURES WHILE A NUT IS INSTALLED OVER THE BARREL AND TORQUED DOWN WITH, YOU GUESSED IT, A SPECIAL TOOL, LOCKING THE URX IN PLACE. THIS IS FAR, FAR SIMPLER THAN ANY OTHER FOREND INSTALLATION PROCEDURE, AS THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO "TIME" THE BARREL NUT. PLUS, WITH THE URX II, THERE WILL BE NO TORQUE SETTINGS ALL OVER THE PLACE, FROM 30 FT-LB TO 80 FT-LB. BUT, IT REQUIRES COMPONENTS WITH NEAR PERFECT TOLERANCES, WHICH KNIGHT'S IS QUITE CAPABLE OF DOING. WE ONLY INSTALL BARREL NUTS BETWEEN 35 AND 50 FT-LB ON TRADITIONAL RECEIVERS WITH FREE FLOATING FORENDS, BECAUSE I SIMPLY FEEL MORE THAN THAT IS JUST TOO MUCH


have a good one,

stainless
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:03:37 AM EST
I was afraid of that. I'll probably end up getting one eventually just to play with, because it's unique, but I can't live with the idea that I wouldn't be able to replace a worn or damaged barrel on my own. The possibility of me damaging a barrel is quite low, and the possibility of me wearing a barrel out is even lower, but damnit, I need piece of mind.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:06:25 AM EST
I think it's really a case of comparing apples and oranges.

Plus, nobody has both to really compare them.

Right now, is the URX even available to for public purchase???
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:14:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
I think it's really a case of comparing apples and oranges.

Plus, nobody has both to really compare them.

Right now, is the URX even available to for public purchase???



Through MSTN they are. I'm not sure if Knight's has is putting them on civilian SR-15s yet though.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:27:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:28:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
Through MSTN they are. I'm not sure if Knight's has is putting them on civilian SR-15s yet though.



Wes is selling URXs or is he selling complete rifles with the URX?? First I heard of this. I thought the only way to get one was by buying a complete rifle from Knights with one installed.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:35:23 AM EST
why not ditch the URX and go to the Troy MRF-MX???
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:37:29 AM EST
I believe Wes is providing it as an option on complete uppers. The URX does require professional installation.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=213723
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:43:15 AM EST
Looks like I have more money to spend.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:15:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Looks like I have more money to spend.



Sucks, doesn't it? I wouldn't change it for the world!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:02:41 PM EST
Thanx Everyone. That kinda makes me question what the difference between buying an LMT MRP and a Knights URX II would be considering they both have the same features, except for the fact LMT MRP barrels are removable, while they would not be removable using the URX II handguards. Sound accurate enough?

Thanx.
Sammy
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 5:53:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By selfishselfless:
Thanx Everyone. That kinda makes me question what the difference between buying an LMT MRP and a Knights URX II would be considering they both have the same features, except for the fact LMT MRP barrels are removable, while they would not be removable using the URX II handguards. Sound accurate enough?

Thanx.
Sammy



That's about right. Except they are removeable on the URX, but only if you have Knight's proprietary tools. Personally I would get the MRP first, and then a URX II later if you're really into collecting and using guns. ARFCOM member KevinB seems to prefer the URXII over his MRP.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:46:40 AM EST
Thank you Corporal_Chaos.

Sammy


Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
That's about right. Except they are removeable on the URX, but only if you have Knight's proprietary tools. Personally I would get the MRP first, and then a URX II later if you're really into collecting and using guns. ARFCOM member KevinB seems to prefer the URXII over his MRP.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 7:33:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
LaRue is for someone that need a rail forend for their upper, URX is someone looking to buy a new upper.

Definitely an apple to orange comparison.



Agreed - the URX is imho SUPERIOR.

The LaRue is more like a FFRAS
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 11:17:44 AM EST
And an LMT MRP is superior to a KAC URX (boy, that's alot of acronyms in one sentance)

If you are going to replace an upper, why not do it right. IMHO
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 2:21:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
LaRue is for someone that need a rail forend for their upper, URX is someone looking to buy a new upper.

Definitely an apple to orange comparison.



Agreed - the URX is imho SUPERIOR.

The LaRue is more like a FFRAS



But how can you say that the URX is "SUPERIOR"???

They are two different things.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:01:03 PM EST
That is easy. Because if you break the Picatinny rails on the MRP, in order to replace them, you need to replace the whole upper receiver. In order to replace the Picatinny rails on the URX II, you only need to replace the handguards. But I guess the same argument could be said, it is easier to replace an upper receiver than URX II handguards.

Sammy


Originally Posted By rastamon:
And an LMT MRP is superior to a KAC URX (boy, that's alot of acronyms in one sentance)

If you are going to replace an upper, why not do it right. IMHO

Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:14:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By selfishselfless:
That is easy. Because if you break the Picatinny rails on the MRP, in order to replace them, you need to replace the whole upper receiver. In order to replace the Picatinny rails on the URX II, you only need to replace the handguards. But I guess the same argument could be said, it is easier to replace an upper receiver than URX II handguards.

Sammy


Originally Posted By rastamon:
And an LMT MRP is superior to a KAC URX (boy, that's alot of acronyms in one sentance)

If you are going to replace an upper, why not do it right. IMHO




But the comparison is between the LaRue, which means the LaRue is superior as a rail for general purpose use, because it is a) rock solid (locking plate), and b) user replaceable. The continuing rail is really only needed for long eye relief scopes, and the LaRue scope mount fixes that. All three (MRP, URX II, and LaRue) are different animals though, so everyone should get at least one of each!
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 4:36:21 PM EST
Agreed,

One of each in every available length it is!




Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:21:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By rastamon:
Agreed,

One of each in every available length it is!







That's the right attitude!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:59:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:But how can you say that the URX is "SUPERIOR"???

They are two different things.



The URX is a more refined FF concept - thus I find it superior. To me the LaRue rail is similar to the KAC FFRAS - the URX has both the provision to mount the M203, and Masterkey (the Larue and FFRAS do not), and an uninterupted front rail [the URX has a removable lower as well to aid in cleaning etc - and yeah I have gotten rock in the FFRAS and it is as Bitch to get out].
For those of us who shoot NTCH the ARMS nor LaRue moutns will fully allow some scopes to get enough eye relief and the barrel nut is a PITA for that reason.

It is not a dig against LaRue - I plan on getting a LaRue'd Carbine in a month or so, just an observation.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:52:45 AM EST
Sounds like it is time to wait for the URXII!

Thanx as always KevinB!
Sammy


Originally Posted By KevinB:
The URX is a more refined FF concept - thus I find it superior. To me the LaRue rail is similar to the KAC FFRAS - the URX has both the provision to mount the M203, and Masterkey (the Larue and FFRAS do not), and an uninterupted front rail [the URX has a removable lower as well to aid in cleaning etc - and yeah I have gotten rock in the FFRAS and it is as Bitch to get out].
For those of us who shoot NTCH the ARMS nor LaRue moutns will fully allow some scopes to get enough eye relief and the barrel nut is a PITA for that reason.

It is not a dig against LaRue - I plan on getting a LaRue'd Carbine in a month or so, just an observation.

Link Posted: 9/19/2004 9:58:02 PM EST
Is the URX II available in more than one length?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:43:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By pinepig2:
Is the URX II available in more than one length?



YES
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:52:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:19:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By MSTN:
WE HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING WITH BOTH.

THE LARUE IS THE NICEST, STRAIGHTEST, CONVENTIONAL FORMAT FREE FLOATING FOREND FOR AN INSTALLER TO WORK WITH, IMO. I REALLY LIKE THEM.

THE KAC URX II IS SOMETHING OF AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FORMAT. I REALLY LIKE THEM, AS WELL. THE TOOLS USED TO INSTALL THEM ARE PROPRIETARY AND RATHER EXPENSIVE. I HAVE BEEN RECENTLY INFORMED BY KNIGHT'S THAT PLANS TO RELEASE THEM IN QUANTITY COMMERCIALLY HAVE BEEN PLACED ON HOLD.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.



The tools, or the rails?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:50:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:28:18 PM EST
Could it have somethign to do with SCAR being backburner'd and RISII finding a home?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:04:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Could it have somethign to do with SCAR being backburner'd and RISII finding a home?



That's the shocker of the year. I was pretty sure they'd both get killed...

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:23:04 PM EST
I could be RTFO

It might be just a Reed hoarding method to exact the max for unbanned SR15E3 URX carbines and rifles


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:48:29 PM EST
I can honestly say that I'm pretty far outta the loop lately, so it might not be a good idea to listen to me. I need to start calling around sometime this week and figure out WTF is going on!

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:14:29 AM EST
So, please tell us about the RIS II. How is it different?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:44:26 AM EST
RIS to is the new Rail Interface system that is/was pat of SOPMOD Block II (aka MD/NS)
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:46:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
RIS to is the new Rail Interface system that is/was pat of SOPMOD Block II (aka MD/NS)



Ahhh... I see.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 9:07:36 PM EST
KevinB, do you have any pics of the ris II?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 1:30:10 AM EST
I have pics of the URXII - but RISII is apparenlty in a holding pattern (no award yet)

There are several contenders Daniel Defence, KAC, ARMS (was disqualified but re-admitted on appeal)

As far as I know funding was pulled from blockII/SCAR etc.

Knights got hit in the hurricanes from my understanding too
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:07:05 AM EST
The delay in commercial URX-II forends, uppers, or complete rifles has all to do with the US Military, especially the Army, increasing our monthly quota for M4 and M5 RAS. Also, USSOCOM requesting more RIS, BUIS, etc.
USMC has also hit us hard on over 3,000 of our new "rail-grabbing" M203 Leaf Sights.
Also delivering 500 M4 "QD" NT-4 Sound Suppressors to USSOCOM monthly.
Also remember that each Mk 11 Mod 0 on order from US Military has a long FF Rail Forend.
Also, the new SR-25 Battle Rifle's all have a 7.62 version of the URX-II rail forend.
We are currently also building a pretty large batch of 5.56mm URX-II equipped SR-16 (Full Auto) 14.5" uppers for the US Gov; along with an equal number of URX-II 10.5" uppers as well.
With all this going on simultaniously, we are just "maxed-out" on the government side with hardly any capacity to service the commercial side. As evidence of this, since the AWB expired, you have not heard a word from us with any product.
However, good news for RAS-II fans of the Shot Show Special. We had a customer order more than 500 of these and now does not want them till after the first of the year. I saw several hundred being packed for commercial back-orders last week as we will build his 500 in January. So there wiull be some surplus from the B/O's going on the shelf next week.
As far as we (KAC) is concerned, we still have a candidate running in the SCAR program as well as the aging SOPMOD Block-2 new rail froend program (what they call "RIS-2"). However, there is no activity on their RIS-2 except the gov asking for repeated extensions of vendor offers.
I believe the most current activity within SOPMOD-2 is their testing of the first 20-30 of the EOTech's, Trijicon's, and Elcan's they awarded contracts to for a new Close Combat Optic a couple of months ago.
And of course the XM-8 being jammed-down the Army's throat harkens to destroy what is left of America's once inovative, competitive, proud, dominant, and capable small arms industrial capability by certain "interests" going sole-source to a foreign country that not only failed to support, but that has hurt America's efforts, to bring freedom to the people of Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 7:12:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:02:44 AM EST
Coldblue

Thanks for the SITREP, much appreciated as there are several of us holding out for some of this new stuff.

Link Posted: 10/9/2004 11:30:38 AM EST
Thanks for the update.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 12:51:48 PM EST
coldblue,

Any chance there will be an over production of the 14.5" or 10.5" uppers with URXII you are building for the govt for civilian purchase in 2005? Do these have standard FSB or your new folding front sight? I assume they have 1/7 twist and Colt style feed ramps?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 1:04:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 2:29:48 PM EST
Coldblue,

Thanks for the update. Continue supporting the troops! My paper punching can wait for all the new goodies you guys are building. I hope the hurricanes did not add to the backlog by hurt facilities, employees, etc. All I ask is you keep us informed of developments and let us get first shot at the new toys!

Spooky
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 2:26:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By coldblue:
And of course the XM-8 being jammed-down the Army's throat harkens to destroy what is left of America's once inovative, competitive, proud, dominant, and capable small arms industrial capability by certain "interests" going sole-source to a foreign country that not only failed to support, but that has hurt America's efforts, to bring freedom to the people of Iraq.




AMEN





Another AMEN is in order. Screw the Germans and the XM-8
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 2:27:48 AM EST
Coldblue, thanks for the updates.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 3:33:15 AM EST
Thats interesting F*#K HK
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 3:59:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
coldblue,

Any chance there will be an over production of the 14.5" or 10.5" uppers with URXII you are building for the govt for civilian purchase in 2005? Do these have standard FSB or your new folding front sight? I assume they have 1/7 twist and Colt style feed ramps?



With the pace we are presently running, I won't know (about availability of over's) until February. This is because other government units making similar inquiries.
All have our E3 folding frontsight/gas block assembly, as these customers want as much flat-rail real estate as posssible to position our Universal Knight Scope (PVS-22) in front of their zeroed day optics, and sometimes the standard FSB blocks that possibilty.
All 1:7, chrome, extended feed rams, E3 style improved bolt lugs, dual spricg extractor, etc.
By the way, the Government's Small Arms Training Center (in Georgia ?) has some of these because some select student groups are show up with these new SR-16's. That is one way other units find out about this improved carbine. I mean have you ever seen KAC advertise these?
That is because we are way busy just on word-of-mouth testimonials.
Huricane damage here in Vero, Indian River/St. Lucie and other counties significant. You probably don't see this on the national media because detailed reporting was hurting the tourist industry state wide. Luckily, our new facilty in Titusville has just about recovered 100%. However, many team members remain affected.
My once tropical backyard/neighborhood looks like a piece of Viet-Nam after a B-52 strike with 2,000 lb. bombs. Most "snow bird" homes (like the trhee accross the street from me) remain un-occupied with their yards totally trashed by two successive huricanes. Piles of street-side tree debris, rolls of wet carpet/padding, discared furinture, etc., remaining in place now for several weeks post-storm, give the whole town a depressing "3rd World Contry" look. Worst, however, is my favorite watering hole (Riverside Cafe) remains "river bottomed" and the owner may newer recover & re-build.
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