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Posted: 9/27/2019 8:14:38 PM EDT
Announcement

Will be interesting to see what happens. I assume most commercial capacity hits the shelf in a white box starting Q4 2019.
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 8:27:09 PM EDT
Stick vs ball powder?
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 8:55:51 PM EDT
So no more Fed XM193 for cheap???
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 8:59:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:01:37 PM EDT
no shit.  what does this mean for our XM193. :(
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:05:44 PM EDT
I’d buy in ‘19 what you want for ‘20.  Changeover plus election year...who knows.
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:29:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Oldgold:
Stick vs ball powder?
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Stick vs Ball propellant is decided at Picatinny by ARDEC, not by the contractor.
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:35:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By j97531:
no shit.  what does this mean for our XM193. :(
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After the coming ban it won’t be cheap
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:40:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 9:56:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lysanderxiii:

Stick vs Ball propellant is decided at Picatinny by ARDEC, not by the contractor.
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Yep.  And powder is single source so that doesn’t change.
Link Posted: 9/27/2019 11:23:42 PM EDT
Should have given the contract to Lapua. Oh well.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 6:30:45 AM EDT
Aw heck.  I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 7:50:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By billclo:
Aw heck.  I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in.
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Same here.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 9:09:01 AM EDT
Can someone fill in the details for those of us (like me) who live under rocks and do not understand the significance of this?
I am just very loosely understanding that federal is the current operator of the plant, but it will now be switching to winchester?
What or how does this effect us?
What is the significance of the stick/ball powder mentioned? I did not see anything in the article about it.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 9:29:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2019 9:34:44 AM EDT by hollowpoint2003]
The powder comment means nothing as specifications are set by DOD and say the powder has to come from one place only.  Nothing changes there.

LC has been operated by ATK, then Orbital ATK then Northrop Grumman since roughly 2000.   No actual change in operation...just a series of mergers.   Somewhere there Vista spun out which owns federal.  Vista gets most of the commercial capacity along with Hornady and some of smaller players.

Olin previously operated LC from the mid 80s up until ATK took over.  So they should understand operations.  But I can’t imagine them not selling the excess commercial capacity under their brand going forward.

I also can’t imagine there not being some interruption in commercial supply as federal dwindles and Winchester picks up around the changeover of Q4 2020.  That also coincides with an election, which always drives demand. So my take is stock up now through the first part of next year if you want plenty of cheap LC product before demand goes up and supply is interrupted.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 9:33:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 9:45:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2019 3:05:37 PM EDT by Sinister]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hollowpoint2003:

Yep.  And powder is single source so that doesn’t change.
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Up to a point.

Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo.  The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet.

There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 9:46:19 AM EDT
I'm wondering what "vertically integrated company" means in English, not cprpspeak?
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 11:33:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By hotdog250j:
I'm wondering what "vertically integrated company" means in English, not cprpspeak?
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The don't just make "stuff" and have other companies handling things like dealing with the other side on contracts, or another marketing/selling their wares through distribution points.  They're in a particular "niche" as to industry they deal in, but have their own resources (aka, Gov't contract reps, accountants, QA people and, yeah, lobbyists) to take care of those needs in-house.

Clear as mud?  :)
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 12:08:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 2:33:35 PM EDT
There's a good sale going on at Natchez for XM193 with free shipping.  I posted the link and info in the tacked ammo availability thread.

I loaded up, as I don't see this stuff getting any cheaper after this announcement.  It's already been ratcheting up a click or two recently.
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 2:57:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Same here.
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I've been using that  excuse for a while too
Link Posted: 9/28/2019 8:30:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sinister:

Up to a point.

Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo.  The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet.

There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are.
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There were technical reason for the switch away from W750; high temperature pressure spikes, and other performance related issues.
Link Posted: 9/30/2019 10:19:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2019 3:45:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2019 3:54:11 PM EDT by drw1006]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Olin last had the plant up until 1999, I think, so it’s been a while - the Winchester M193 was usually Q3131, but that was made overseas. Not sure how they’ll designate the stuff that will be coming from Lake City.
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Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By Jeeps-And-Guns:
Can someone fill in the details for those of us (like me) who live under rocks and do not understand the significance of this?Federal government owns the plant and contracts with companies like Federal and Winchester to run it. Federal’s contract is up, Winchester (Olin) got the new one.
I am just very loosely understanding that federal is the current operator of the plant, but it will now be switching to winchester?
What or how does this effect us? Federal XM193 will dry up and be replaced with the Winchester equivalent.
What is the significance of the stick/ball powder mentioned? I did not see anything in the article about it.Baseless speculation based on the erroneous assumption that Winchester can make the ammo however they want.
Olin last had the plant up until 1999, I think, so it’s been a while - the Winchester M193 was usually Q3131, but that was made overseas. Not sure how they’ll designate the stuff that will be coming from Lake City.
I think the Q3131 was LC ammo (domestic) and the Q3131A was made in Israel. I have both stacked deep.



Link Posted: 10/1/2019 4:09:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/3/2019 6:55:35 PM EDT
I think I have a case of each some where.
Link Posted: 10/4/2019 2:32:27 AM EDT
I’ve been loading up on Privi M193. Shoots good out of my rifle.
Link Posted: 10/4/2019 8:20:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2019 2:56:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2019 3:21:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2019 3:26:18 PM EDT by 1Devildog]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By drw1006:

I think the Q3131 was LC ammo (domestic) and the Q3131A was made in Israel. I have both stacked deep.
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Q3131 was Winchester manufactured, Q3131A was made in Israel.

Olin running LC does not necessarily mean Winchester branded products will be made there, although it is likely. They already have a relatively new plant making 5.56 in Tennessee (?) in addition to their old one. It would not make sense to make .223/5.56 at three different plants unless demand was through the roof.

At any rate, it will be interesting to follow as this unfolds...
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 12:02:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Same here.
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Aw heck.  I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in.
Same here.
Word is LC terminated the contract with Olin in 1999 and turned production over to ATK due to QC issues with M855 to begin with.
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 12:52:35 AM EDT
Wasn't the change to Olin announced along with the new Army rifle project and the ramp up for the new ammo?

Rob
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 4:12:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2019 4:18:39 PM EDT by GAU-8]
This is bad news to me.  I really like what federal did with the xm193 and XM855 offerings.  I really liked the 420 round sealed cans on stripper clips.  Also the 90 round boxes on strippers.  Federal pretty much made military grade and military packaged ammo available to the public.  Olin never did that and I doubt they will but we can hope.  Federal also made pretty much all the civilian legal military ammo available, including M856 tracer, M80 ball, M33 50BMG ball and M17 50 BMG tracer.  It's been like Lake City online ammo store and it's going away.  I think this announcement sucks.
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 4:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2019 4:40:27 PM EDT by uglygun]
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Originally Posted By GAU-8:
This is bad news to me.  I really like what federal did with the xm193 and XM855 offerings.  I really liked the 420 round sealed cans on stripper clips.  Also the 90 round boxes on strippers.  Federal pretty much made military grade and military packaged ammo available to the public.  Olin never did that and I doubt they will but we can hope.  Federal also made pretty much all the civilian legal military ammo available, including M856 tracer, M80 ball, M33 50BMG ball and M17 50 BMG tracer.  It's been like Lake City online ammo store and it's going away.  I think this announcement sucks.
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All of the above plus,

Other issue was that Federal brass fucking sucked for using in ARs back around 99-2001.   I fucking hated their commercial brass with primers getting spat out in multiple ARs.

Anything marked FC back then was suspect for me even if it was factory fresh.   I certainly would not use it to handload with.

That problem went away with their offerings that used the mil staked primers.
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 9:14:54 PM EDT
I bought Federal XM193 starting with Lot number 3 when it was cheap.  I still have a not insignificant amount.
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 9:21:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 10:33:36 PM EDT
If the goal is to run LC at anywhere near the volumes ran in the last six years, I think there will still be commercially available product, at least for the 5.56 line of products.  Mission readiness is important even when the government isn’t buying a lot of ammo, and idle production lines do not support mission readiness.  Bad product is often the result of start/stop production cycles.  I could actually see a scenario where XM193 and XM855 type offerings would be available cheaper under Winchester.  It’s all speculation at this point.  Heck, there’s already a Winchester M193 load that’s been on the market for awhile that’s made entirely at Lake City. Why would they stop putting that out after taking over the plant and cutting out the middle man?  I do think there will be a market disruption, but that’s more about there being a changeover at the same time politically that tends to increase demand.  I’m buying now what I’d typically want in the late Summer/early Fall of an election year.
Link Posted: 10/20/2019 11:42:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2019 11:46:49 PM EDT by leid]
Federal/ATK had a clause in their contract to operate LCAAP that permitted commercial sale of ammunition produced at LCAAP that the U.S. Govt. did not want or need. I have never read or heard that Winchester/Olin was allowed to do that while they operated LCAAP in the past. It will be interesting to see if Winchester even wants to sell any unwanted/extra ammunition produced at LCAAP on the commercial market. Winchester opened a rimfire ammunition plant in Oxford, MS well over a decade ago, in or around 2004 IIRC. Oxford is the hometown of Ole Miss. The plant started off small but has greatly increased in size. In or around 2011, Winchester made the decision to start moving centerfire production to their ammunition plant in Oxford, MS. The Oxford plant now manufactures commercial centerfire ammunition from .380 to .50 BMG. But their focus is on 9MM/5.56MM/7.62x51MM/.50 BMG ammunition production for the U.S. military. Current production in the centerfire plant alone is over 8 million rounds a day.
Link Posted: 10/20/2019 12:09:44 PM EDT
Well to me that is even more bad news.  I have never seen commercial loaded Winchester 50BMG.  Federal had no problem selling 50bmg to the public and it was available on the shelf in big box retail stores.  I have a bad feeling people do not realize how good they had it when Federal ran LCAA.
Link Posted: 10/20/2019 12:11:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2019 12:14:53 PM EDT by Sinister]
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Originally Posted By redloh:
Word is LC terminated the contract with Olin in 1999 and turned production over to ATK due to QC issues with M855 to begin with.
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No, but thanks for playing.

Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is a government-owned/contractor-operated (GO-CO) arrangement.  The contract is in terms so the government can compete the contract for government best value.  Lake City has been run by Remington, Winchester-Olin, and Federal-ATK (now I guess part of Northrup Grumman).

It is the last government-owned small arms ammo plant (out of 12 during the height of WWII).  The Army bought 5.56 from I believe up to eight or ten commercial and overseas sources at the height of the Iraqi surge (some produced with components shipped from the US, some from all-foreign sources).

All had to pass US .mil QC acceptance inspection.  The stuff that didn't could be sold commercially.  The boon for US shooters has been decent spin-off ammo.
Link Posted: 10/20/2019 8:41:22 PM EDT
Wait so what does this mean for XM193?
Link Posted: 10/20/2019 8:54:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2019 8:58:03 PM EDT by Sinister]
During the 1999-2000 transition the CMP sold a lot of Lake City ammo and brass we'd probably call "XM" or "PD" stuff today.

You could buy 7.62 mm M118 Long Range in cans and cases that had 99, 00, and 01 LC LR headstamps in the same 20-round GI boxes.

You could buy Lake City brass in 20mm Vulcan cans (2,000 pieces for 7.62 Match and 4,000 pieces for primed 5.56).
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 6:05:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Damn nice ammo.
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
I’ve been loading up on Privi M193. Shoots good out of my rifle.
Damn nice ammo.
Does it frag like XM193? Jacket thickness same? More?
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 10:09:49 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LoneWolf545:

The actual workers on the line may not change, it's not uncommon for them to just switch companies when a contract shifts like this.
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Yep, know three guys at church that work there. All three will still have their jobs when the take over happens. Two are in management there.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 12:19:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hollowpoint2003:
I’d buy in ‘19 what you want for ‘20.  Changeover plus election year...who knows.
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That my friend, is some sound advice !
Link Posted: 11/27/2019 9:58:04 AM EDT
Looks like re-labeling has begun.

Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO Ammunition 1000 Rounds FMJ 55 Grains:


Affordable MIL-SPEC cartridges loaded by Winchester in the USA.
The Lake City ammunition plant has extended contracts to trusted brand Winchester to load their MIL-SPEC line of ammo using U S Military Standard components. Where previously Federal Premium was the exclusive loader of Lake City cartridges, you can purchase those same rounds loaded right here in the United States by Winchester! It’s the same MIL-SPEC ammo you love, now priced to move!

Benefits of buying MIL-SPEC ammunition include smooth interchangeability and a higher performance standard resulting in a more accurate shot, every time. These Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO rounds offer Military-Standard quality at an affordable price.

1000 Round Box.

Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO Ammo 1000 Rounds Features and Specifications:

Manufacturer Number: USA556LKY
Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO
Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket (FMJ)
Bullet Weight: 55 Grains
Rounds: 1000 Rounds per Box
Muzzle Velocity: 3270
Muzzle Energy: 1306 ft/lbs
Jacket Material: Copper
Core Material: Lead
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.267
Casing: Brass
Usage: Target
Link Posted: 11/27/2019 12:09:10 PM EDT
i'll be interested to see if the civi version of m193 velocity goes back up. wasnt the federal xm193 down to 3100-and-change thru a 20"?

$355 at CTD for 1000 rounds! yikes...
Link Posted: 11/27/2019 2:25:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2019 2:36:31 PM EDT by MrEG]
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Originally Posted By mr_h:
i'll be interested to see if the civi version of m193 velocity goes back up. wasnt the federal xm193 down to 3100-and-change thru a 20"?

$355 at CTD for 1000 rounds! yikes...
View Quote
I recently chronoed some M193 through my 16" barrel and got 3,100ish fps.
Link Posted: 11/27/2019 2:50:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2019 6:03:55 PM EDT by MrEG]
Guys, I honestly have a hard time following the conversation here sometimes. Do I have this correct?

Statements:

  1. The government owns the Lake City plant.

  2. It selects ammo makers to run the plant.

  3. The government buys a majority of the ammo produced, but the contractor gets to sell the stuff the government doesn't buy to civilians.

  4. Federal has been good to gun owners because it doesn't say that some mil-spec ammo is too dangerous for civilian consumption and will sell us basically the same stuff the government buys.

  5. Winchester has long sold their own version of M193, which they get from Lake City plant, meaning Federal sells it to them.

  6. Now, Federal won't make the Lake City M193, so we will have to buy from Winchester and hope they don't get stingy or have quality control issues.



Does that all sound right?

Questions:

  1. Has Federal historically made any M193 that wasn't produced at Lake City?

  2. If so, will that continue?

  3. Do any other manufacturers make M193 that is equal in quality to the Federal M193? (for the record, I mean ammo that is built to all of the M193 specifications, not something that is merely 55 grain but is otherwise different)

  4. If so, do any of them sell it on stripper clips like Federal does?



Sorry to be such a pain in the butt. I just want to make sure that I understand the situation and its implications.
Link Posted: 11/27/2019 3:00:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2019 8:59:42 PM EDT by hollowpoint2003]
1,2,3 are basically correct.

Don’t think of non-government bought product as second tier. While that can be true it’s certainly not the normal case.  Think of it in terms of “plant capacity.”   They can run X amount.  Gov buys Y. What’s left the operator can fill with commercial orders.

Federal (Vista) doesn’t run Lake City.  Northrop currently does (they bought the company that had the expiring contract). Federal currently gets most of the excess capacity...sort of a first right of refusal thing but not exactly.  (Further complication and some source of confusion is Federal’s company was part the company Northrop bought at in the past.  That leads to the confusion that Federal currently is anything but a customer of Northrop.

Olin buys current M193 capacity from Lake City. Federal has no part in that transaction.

Olin Winchester will have the plant starting October 1st.  What they choose to do with extra capacity will be their choice.

Make sense?
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