I'm considering whether to get a complete LMT or CMMG. LMT seems to have all the features I want and is well regarded among the illuminati of ar15.com. LMT uppers and lowers are hard to find. CMMG on the other hand has its own website and offers tons of options for all their barrels.

NOT taking into account this difference in availability, etc....which of these makes better full rifles if I built one using their parts?

Reliability is the main factor, but others can be considered.

I know you all love to fight about this.

Oh and dont talk to me about Colt unless you really feel like it. I m not getting a Colt because its just too damn expensive the gun alone is what i plan to spend on my rifle WITH all the upgrades.[

I'd go CMMG. How often do you see anyone write anything negative about CMMG? Pretty much never.

LMT has had QC issues, and has no clue on how to address civilian needs.

A friend here in Utah has a complete 16" CMMG upper on a DPMS lower, and I've been nothing but impressed since first seeing it.

Currently I would only buy complete rifles from CMMG and Sabre Defense as they've both displayed a better "feel" in build quality over many other AR15 makers. CMT also has a rock solid reputation here, and give you a lot for the money without skimping on quality control

LMT would be at the bottom of my list

Here we go again, more LMT bashing.  I have two complete LMT M4s.  Fit and finish are way above average and function is flawless.  I know this from direct experience and thousands of rounds with zero malfunctions.  Each came with a QC certificate that was signed by an inspector.  Talk to Paul at Bravo Co and ask him why he carries LMT.  You will get the real lowdown.

Dont know about LMT, but my CMMG stuff has given me no problems.

I also know nothing about LMT but I have had great success with my CMMG MOD4 14.5" M4 type upper.  I'll post it again because I love gun pr0n!!!



I built it on a DPMS lower that I got on the cheap during the ban.  I've had nothing but success with this little rifle and its pretty darn accurate too.

are the FSB on the CMMG barrels cast or forged?  I believe they were using DPMS barrels at one time and they were cast but Im not sure where they get thier barrels from now.  Im thinking about getting a 14.7 inch with perm a2 f/h on it.

Very happy LMT customer here.....I have had a few BM M4 or carbine types, and the LMT is waaaaay superior. Fit, Finsh, and that 1/7 barrel is awesome. Very very accurate, and very reliable.

Does anyone know if CMMG has started using real M4 ramps yet? Mine has dremeled ones. They're nicely done but real ones would be better.

I want to get a new 16" upper to replace my CMMG 14.5". I like my CMMG upper just fine, only prob is that I don't want or need the permanent Phantom on it.

I'm planning to go with LMT for the new upper unless CMMG addresses the feed ramps...

they workingon the feed ramps you should call them

Quoted: they workingon the feed ramps you should call them

I checked with CMMG recently and they refused to put down the Dremel.

I have a CMMG M4 upper.

The FSB was canted and could not be zeroed.  The charging handle was very soft and got very chewed up where it engaged the upper.  Out of the first 200 or so rounds, I probably had 30 stuck cases.  The upper itself also seemed to be exhibiting abnormally accelerated wear where the carrier rides.  Moreover, the picatinny rails on the upper were not to spec and the Larue mount required too much adjustment to get it tight.  The barrel also had a big scratch on it and tool marks.  

I sent it back and CMMG put on a new barrel.  

I replaced the charging handle with a Bushmaster and that cured that problem.  

I then just replaced the upper itself with a CMT M4 upper, and the rest of the problems were fixed.  

I WOULD buy another CMMG barrel--the stuck case problem was fixed with the new barrel and a good chamber cleaning.  (the new barrel still had a few stuck cases but not after I whizzed it out with a chamber brush soaked in oil on a drill).

I would NOT buy another complete upper from CMMG.  I would get another CMT upper and b/c/ch from Bushy.  

In fairness, I probably had a bad upper and CH, and this was right after the AWB which could have led to a rushed job.  

CMMG was easy to deal with and was happy to make the repairs on their nickel.  

Go With CMMG

I have purchased 3 AR's from them, and they all have been great. No problems AT ALL.

Anyone who says CMMG doesn't have their share of  "QC" issues definetly wasn't apart of the Giffmann barrel group buy (like I was)!  All I can say is that the standard HG's fit on my LMT upper.

I would like to comment on CMMG's products, but after missing two matches waiting on a barrel that they didn't bother telling me was back ordered, I cancelled the order.  One call to MSTN, and I had a 10.5" LMT in my hands.  The LMT is FLAWLESS.

Quoted: I'd go CMMG. How often do you see anyone write anything negative about CMMG? Pretty much never. LMT has had QC issues, and has no clue on how to address civilian needs. A friend here in Utah has a complete 16" CMMG upper on a DPMS lower, and I've been nothing but impressed since first seeing it. Currently I would only buy complete rifles from CMMG and Sabre Defense as they've both displayed a better "feel" in build quality over many other AR15 makers. CMT also has a rock solid reputation here, and give you a lot for the money without skimping on quality control LMT would be at the bottom of my list

Do you have any FACTS to back these QC issues LMT has?

Quoted: Anyone who says CMMG doesn't have their share of  "QC" issues definetly wasn't apart of the Giffmann barrel group buy (like I was)!  All I can say is that the standard HG's fit on my LMT upper.

Agreed.  ALL companies have their fair share of QC SNAFUs.  CMMG is not exempt.

Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list

And yet,a few days later, you say this:

Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project.

Weird.

I have a complete LMT AR.  Very happy with it.  I'm sure I'd be similarly happy with the CMMG.

coburn

Quoted: Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list And yet,a few days later, you say this: Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project. Weird.

That is weird.  

coburn

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list And yet,a few days later, you say this: Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project. Weird. That is weird.   coburn

Tres weird.

Trollism?

Quoted: Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list And yet,a few days later, you say this: Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project. Weird.

Direct contact with LMT products at impact guns here in utah recently. I Like what I saw. Nothing will ever be at the top of my list until I hold it in my hands. LMT is being evaluated and researched for my side project now, along with CMT/Stag, and CMMG.

I don't have any CMMG stuff but I do have a LMT 16" M4 upper. In my opinion, LMT is top notch if you want milspec features. The LMT has true M4 feed ramps, 4150 barrel, and 1/7 twist.  I'm of the opinion that most of CMMG stuff is DPMS, in which there is nothing wrong with that.  The fit and finish is also superb. I like my LMT upper better than my Colt, RRA, and BM uppers.

Quoted: Trollism?

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Trollism? +1

This coming from someone that just took a big troll dump on my LMT thread. CGV was correct, you did launch the first attack. No one was negative until you started

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list And yet,a few days later, you say this: Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project. Weird. Direct contact with LMT products at impact guns here in utah recently. I Like what I saw. Nothing will ever be at the top of my list until I hold it in my hands. LMT is being evaluated and researched for my side project now, along with CMT/Stag, and CMMG.

No problem, but that then begs the question: why would you say that LMT is "at the bottom of my list," having not "held it in your hands?"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: LMT would be at the bottom of my list And yet,a few days later, you say this: Dude, I dont even own a Colt, I was thinking about getting an LMT upper for a side project. Weird. Direct contact with LMT products at impact guns here in utah recently. I Like what I saw. Nothing will ever be at the top of my list until I hold it in my hands. LMT is being evaluated and researched for my side project now, along with CMT/Stag, and CMMG. No problem, but that then begs the question: why would you say that LMT is "at the bottom of my list," having not "held it in your hands?"

Bottom of the list isnt a bad thing. Considering that CMMG offers similiar spec'ed rifles for >$100, AND has a stellar reputation, the econimics alone put LMT at a disadvantage. This very forum has had threads concerning LMT's QC issues, and many more of LMT being a rival to Colt, which makes me think there is a value there that maybe justifies the extra expense. In addition I got to handle some LMT products and I thought they were well made. so I posted another thread looking for more in depth information on LMT products so it would not be at the bottom of my list, and to really see if there were any feature or assurance in build quality that would make it worth buying over CMMG

Dinger, who I know has LMT rifles, had a shit hemmorage and I'm not really sure why.

At no point have I ever said LMT makes a shitty rifle, or Colt is a superior rifle. Nothing will ever be my 1st choice until I have all my questions answered and I've held the product for myself. And I still question LMT not selling complete rifles to the general public, but they say they will soon so maybe there arent evil like colt after all

OK,

Since this thread has turned into a pissing match I'll try to add some CMMG information to get back on track.

I mentioned before I have had zero failures with the CMMG upper.  The AR I put the  CMMG upper on was originally part of a J&T kit gun I built on a DPMS reciever.  The 6 position stock is RRA, LPK is whatever J&T uses.  It also the same for the bolt and bolt carrier; they were carry overs from the J&T upper, and I only feed this AR XM193 and various BH ammo.  

That being said I knew over a year ago I wanted to have a 1/7 twist M4 style barrel either 16" or 14.5" with a perm. attached flash supressor when the ban ended.  I happened to be in Kansas City working and stopped at CMMG on my way back to PA.  The guys at CMMG took a lot of time to speak with me even though they were extremely busy.  In fact they let me select this upper from the many that were in stock.  I knew then that the M4 feedramps were dremeled but really didn't care.  The upper was good quality and everything seemed right so I bought it.

Fast forward to 9/13/04 and I quickly turned my neutered  post-ban J&T rifle into the configuration I posted on the first page of this thread.  I went and shot it a week later and found that I really liked it.  The gun was accurate enough for me and with some 68 to 77 grain rounds fragmentation range was slightly extened.  I ran about 300 rounds through it that first day and it functioned flawlessly.  I then proceeded to shoot the living crap out of it and it hasn't missed a beat.  

LMT was another manufacture I looked at but I liked CMMG's service and attention to me as a customer so I decided to go with them.  

Maybe the LMT is nicer, maybe CMMG and LMT have QC issues, maybe this, maybe that.  Its really hard to say unless you do lay your hands on the product and look it over.  Even then you might get a lemon but if the manufacturer or retailer is decent they should work to correct the problems.  I know I would have been pissed if the thing ran like crap but I would have pursued getting the situation fixed.  YMMV

Very happy CMMG customer here also. Great to deal with and the upper I bought (less tha b/c is great. I opted for the 14.5 1:7 chrome lined M4 upper (A3). The t handle and bolt/carrier were made by Wilson. Not one malfunction! I have owned an LMT upper 16" and was not that happy with it. Windage issues, FTE issues turned me off to them. A fellow LEO has the same LMT I had and has had ZERO issues with it. I wound up trading mine for a new Bushy HBAR 16". The Bushy shoots great also.

Go with CMMG. Good people, great products.

I don't understand why you would start investigating someone like your a PI or something kc3.   This guy asked for opinions, not bashing or sarcastic 'post investigating' hinking.gif

It is my favorite non-Colt gun! 100% LMT. Never a problem. I love the corp route!






ETA: The amount of bad things I have heard about CMMG = 0

Quoted: It is my favorite non-Colt gun! 100% LMT. Never a problem. I love the corp route! img69.echo.cx/img69/8468/lmt1052dc.jpg ETA: The amount of bad things I have heard about CMMG = 0

Looks like a fun weapon. An RDAIS would make it a blast!

Quoted: I don't understand why you would start investigating someone like your a PI or something kc3.   This guy asked for opinions, not bashing or sarcastic 'post investigating'

You know, you may be right. My apologies.

I don't own an LMT gear, but I have great confidence in CMMG.  I've done alot of dealing with them, visited their shop a couple of times, and I KNOW that if there was a problem with something they sold, they would FIX IT. period.

LMT (may) be good, but I know that CMMG is good and their customer service is unequalled!

Lets see... LMT which is 100% to spec.

CMMG who dremels in feed ramps into barrels and uppers.... used to use cast front sight bases....  Screwed up the port location on a group buy barrel....

I considered CMMG at one point but decided I wanted the best.

The gas key on my LMT upper shook loose after the very first 20 rounds I out through it. However, once I restaked it myself, it has been rock solid withevery type of ammo I have thrown at it. Admiditly, the gas key issue wasn't something that could be spotted in a simple factory test fire.

Aside from the early "break in" hiccups, I'm a very happy customer.

CMMG!!  The rifles are top notch and the people that own it are even better!  Go CMMG and you will not be disapointed.

Dude, if you want an AR, buy a Colt.... its like looking for a Porshe a buying a ford minivan otherwise...

Quoted: are the FSB on the CMMG barrels cast or forged?  I believe they were using DPMS barrels at one time and they were cast but Im not sure where they get thier barrels from now.  Im thinking about getting a 14.7 inch with perm a2 f/h on it.

DPMS has'nt used cast front sight bases since 1996.

I am very pleased with my LMT upper.

The guys at CMMG are the best, period.  No questionss about customer service at all.  I've delt with John and Jeff for several years for M16 parts.  I've ran the crap out of their uppers on a RLL equipped Bushmaster and a RR Frankfort.  I don't have any idea how many rounds I put through my M4 A2 upper!  Heck, I got a 10.25" M2 upper so hot I burned off the park and melted the gas tube (took a beta and a couple of 30 rounders back-to-back.....).  John and Jeff fixed everything, no problem.  Heck, I think Chris still has that gas tube......  Anyway, I still have a couple of their M4 uppers (one is still the original M4A2) and they shoot great.  I even sold the last of my M16's and just got three of their lowers today now that I'm back in the semi world.  Top-notch quality!  I've also got two Colts (RO6450 and an MT6700) and a Armalite 16" midlength.  I'd bet my and my families lives on the CMMG rifles any day.

Quoted: Lets see... LMT which is 100% to spec. CMMG who dremels in feed ramps into barrels and uppers.... used to use cast front sight bases....  Screwed up the port location on a group buy barrel.... I considered CMMG at one point but decided I wanted the best.

Given a choice between the two, I'd choose LMT based on my experience with a CMMG barrel.  I will say that I was treated fairly about the situation, but I was not pleased with the product.

Quoted: I'd go CMMG. How often do you see anyone write anything negative about CMMG? Pretty much never. LMT has had QC issues, and has no clue on how to address civilian needs. A friend here in Utah has a complete 16" CMMG upper on a DPMS lower, and I've been nothing but impressed since first seeing it. Currently I would only buy complete rifles from CMMG and Sabre Defense as they've both displayed a better "feel" in build quality over many other AR15 makers. CMT also has a rock solid reputation here, and give you a lot for the money without skimping on quality control LMT would be at the bottom of my list

Do you have a LMT? or are you just talking BS? Not trying to start crap, but I would like to know what you base you option on.

I have just recently bought a LMT upper, and matched it with a LMT lower I bought last year. I find it to be top notch, and worth the time and money.

As far as I know CMMG makes a fine product. The guys at CMMG are good people.