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Posted: 7/21/2004 4:48:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 3:45:31 PM EST by SHIVAN]
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:05:47 AM EST
Man, I sorry to hear about all your troubles. Hopefully LMT will step up and get it straightened out. Keep us posted!
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:10:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:36:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2004 6:36:56 AM EST by underdog75]
Sounds like the "bad" varible is the LMT upper. If "enhanced" mean no 55grn stuff then LMT can keep it. I can understand designing a new system using SS109 as thats the current milspec ammo. But come on! wont shoot M193? Pleease!
I agree that it sounds like a gas impluse issue... Your problems sound strangely like known issues with short barreled uppers..
Good luck bro..Udog
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:38:20 AM EST
I'll give you $100 for the complete upper, "as is!"




Any M855 in stock? You have the problem isolated to the upper itself, it seems. Hard to believe it won't run right with XM193...

I'm surprised you took it to Blackwater. An upper with that many issues, I wouldn't have.

Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:39:12 AM EST

Definitely keep us posted, as I am planning on getting an LMT upper (10.5) soon and would like to know how they resolve your issues. Always heard that LMT uppers are quality pieces so hopefully it just needs a little tweak.
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:41:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:44:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2004 6:45:45 AM EST by dpmmn]
Are you sure it wasn't a DPMS upper? sounds like the same problems I had with one of theirs

That ended up being a barrel problem
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:44:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:47:13 AM EST
Are you using a standard CAR buffer or the H-Buffer?
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:56:30 AM EST
Hmmmm, yep, our instructor had to induce jams (place empty brass in backwards, or worse) in our rifles for the clearance drills portion of our course. Lets see, 2 colts, 1 colt-master ( Colt lower/Bushie upper), 2 Bushies, and one Rock River at my carbine course last year. Only one unplanned jam with one of the Bushies during our night shoot in something like 4200+ rounds fired.



Link Posted: 7/21/2004 7:00:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 11:02:25 AM EST
maybe the hole in the gas tude is out of spec where it goes into the FSB. Maybe the gas isnt getting through like it should. Take the gas tube out and look or replace it. Or maybe the gas port in the FSB is out of spec. It does sound more like a gas problem to me.
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 11:29:22 AM EST
Shouldn't have to do anything, it's a brand new upper! Let LMT fix it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 4:44:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:10:20 PM EST
I’m sorry to hear about all that. I hope you can get LMT to get it fixed, and please, keep us posted. I’m planning on getting an LMT M4 upper, just want to use the standard B/C but I’m anxious to hear what happens with your gear.

-J
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:12:19 PM EST
SHIVAN, I'm sorry to hear that you've had so much trouble. It just makes me more thankfull that my LMT upper seems to be so reliable. I'm sure LMT will make it right.
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:19:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 5:38:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2004 5:45:35 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
SHIVAN, I'm sorry to hear that you've had so much trouble. It just makes me more thankfull that my LMT upper seems to be so reliable. I'm sure LMT will make it right.



Oh, as with all manufacturers sometimes things get screwed up.....I have seen C4iGrant's LMT run all day long on two consecutive days. I've seen two others on M16's run all day long on full auto.

I have no doubt that it is probably just a silly thing like a partially blocked gas tube, or mis-drilled gas port, or shitty gas block -- or maybe just a bad bolt/carrier combo for my intended use.

If the bolt and carrier are meant for M855 it may find itself on the EE soon after LMT gives it a clean bill of health. It is a VERY nice setup....but if design spec is design spec then someone with M855 stashs of ammo will get a very nice setup.....

I am not pressed to get the upper back, so long as the wait is reasonable and the result is favorable....

From every indication, it will be handled properly -- like most companies do.....

No sweat, I am used to waiting on custom work now, so this should be no sweat.

My biggest fear is that it will work fine for them with M855 and they send it back with no changes....I can't blame them, but the entire upper will find it's way to the EE then......QUALITY piece just not for me.

As soon as I get off my ass and clean it I will be sending it in......



I've used a LMT standard bolt and standard carrier in my upper from day one with zero problems, firing both M855 and several different types of 55 grain. I also shot mine with a RRA enhanced bolt+carrier that I barrowed from M4arc with zero problems during break in. My first guess would be the LMT enhanced bolt, but you've tried "standard bolts" with no luck. I'm very curious to hear what LMT has to say about this.
Link Posted: 7/21/2004 6:51:04 PM EST
Shit man that sucks. If you were closer I would give you 100+rds of My WIN M855 to se how it would work.
I hope it all gets taken care of.
Matt
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 10:22:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

So I employ the help of two pretty knowledgable shooters and AR guys -- FMJunkie and VA-Gunnut.

OK, let's try someone else's carrier....problem is a little better but not much....get to run about 30rds then second mag is back to the same old.

OK, let's try someone else's entire bolt and carrier assembly in the LMT upper.....problem goes away for 60rds so I think we may have the upper broken in/or have found the solution. Drop the LMT bolt and carrier back in and run about 90rds......then hard jam after hard jam.

{disassemble LMT carrier and bolt and brush it off, lube it up again.....spend about an hour trying to fix a major reassembly fuck-up on my part }



I was there helping too.

Sorry to hear you haven't gotten everything worked out yet.
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 10:24:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 11:06:36 AM EST
Pretty damn good test of variables, makes processing the problems a lot easier. Any talk of it being the ammo's fault is plain B/S, the bolt doesn't know what round it's firing. Chip Witt is their QA guy (?), not an engineer or ballistics expert, sounds like an answer given elsewhere, probably a stock one to get you off the 'phone.

The kit should run from the box, if it doesn't send it back, why should spend $ on ammo to try and sort it out?

Other than that, excellent report, wish more people did things this way!
HFG
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 11:09:25 AM EST


Would SMGlee have any advice ?

He's shot LMT stuff for a while right ??
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 11:35:20 AM EST
Wow, your're way more forgiving than I'd ever be. Makes me glad my only problem with ordering from Bushie was a canted FSB.


"Enhanced", is that what they're calling it nowadays.
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 1:41:03 PM EST
Y'all got me all nervous! I've got a new LMT upper and lower sitting in the safe, but it'll be months before I get the project finished and go out to give it a run. I just pray it was a freak situation for LMT products, they're supposed to be one of the best!
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 1:43:40 PM EST
Supposed!!!!
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 2:33:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2004 2:34:51 PM EST by Polyak]

Originally Posted By 9sigman45:
Y'all got me all nervous! I've got a new LMT upper and lower sitting in the safe, but it'll be months before I get the project finished and go out to give it a run. I just pray it was a freak situation for LMT products, they're supposed to be one of the best!



I wouldn't worry about it, like SHIVAN said, all manufacturers have problems from time to time, that's just life.

A friend of mine and myself are running LMT uppers with 100% reliability so far, I'm even using the LMT enhaced bolt in the LMT std carrier as well.



eta: I'm also using the 55gr Q3131A with my setup, zero problems to date.
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 3:17:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 4:27:46 PM EST

I wouldn't worry about it, like SHIVAN said, all manufacturers have problems from time to time, that's just life.



Bwahahahahahahahaha!!! How the tone changes from one brand name to another...
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 5:27:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 5:30:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2004 5:38:49 PM EST by SHIVAN]
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 5:59:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 6:01:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 6:23:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bandit-ExcaliburArms:
Gee, I remember posting about a problem with an LMT enhanced bolt a couple of months ago, and being asked if my post had something to do with the ongoing legal battle between LMT and L-W!
Ring any bells?



Actually, I thought it was a war due to the competition between the enhanced bolt systems from KAC and the LMT unit.
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 6:28:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 6:31:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bandit-ExcaliburArms:
I hate to disappoint you all, but it was just as it appeared, a real problem that arose in the midst of a customer's build, and cost me a lot of time and ammo to resolve.



I was just giving you some gentle ribbing. BTW, any idea when KAC is going to release an enhnced bolt/carrier for the commercial market?
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 6:37:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2004 7:32:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bandit-ExcaliburArms:
I'm afraid not. As a matter of fact, when my current inventory is exhausted, I will no longer sell their products. There will be an explanation of the reasons on my web site soon.



Wow, that is a surprise. I used to live in south Florida and noticed you at all the gun shows. A major part of your booth was always KAC products. I purchased several items from you and was always pleased. I assumed with you living so close to KAC you had a very close relationship with them. I'm curious to read the explanation.
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 4:22:16 AM EST
We've had problems with LMT parts, mostly related to poor QA. When their stuff is good, it's good but there is a great deal of inconsistancy still.

Dare not metion it though because the LMT gang here will come and beat me up. LOL, know what you mean Bandit.
HFG
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 5:34:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2004 5:38:36 AM EST by Feedingcannibal]
SHIVAN and Bandit-ExcaliburArms -

I would encourage both of you to review my thread on problems with the LMT enhanced bolt & LMT standard carrier. 3 pages, but a good read.

Chip also gave me the bs about 55 grain bullets not having enough power to work the enhanced bolt.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=192685
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 5:36:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 5:39:54 AM EST
There's been several posts about LMT products going down...

Bad extractor springs, etc.

AS LMT goes from "sub-contractor" to end user production, it appears they are having some "growing pains"

/S2
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 6:24:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 7:23:31 AM EST
A lot of development work with this bolt and carrier was done with the .499 round. The enhanced carrier was not reliable with the .499 as the gas pressure was substantially lower than the 5.56. We discontinued using it for this reason and reverted to a standard carrier. The Bolt however worked fine; any talk of bolt problems caused by the projectile is just bull.
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 7:29:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Does LMT have QC problems from time to time? Yes they do. If a human makes it then there can be a mistake. The good thing is that LMT is a stand up company and will fix their error....C4



Agreed.

/S2
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 9:39:24 AM EST
SHIVAN,
I have some 62gr M855 from Spain that I can't use at my local range(indoor). If you're in the Tidewater area I'd be happy to give some up for the cause.
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 9:56:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 9:59:26 AM EST
Great, now how am I going to get rid of it?
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 10:00:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By dport:
SHIVAN,
I have some 62gr M855 SS109 from Spain that I can't use at my local range(indoor). If you're in the Tidewater area I'd be happy to give some up for the cause.



There, fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 7/23/2004 10:43:11 AM EST
It's NATO spec. Is M855 different from NATO spec?
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