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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 12/16/2005 12:53:43 PM EDT
OK.. i have been reading y'alls great site for 2 days now and I have a few questions (Search keeps locking me out for 360 seconds every time I try a search). I have a veteran officer who is telling me the AR15's are TERRIBLE and stay the hell away. He says go with the AK47's. He is telling me they are having trouble right now with the AR15's in Iraq (no matter how well maintained) and want to get rid of them. Is this true?Are the AK's much better then the AR's? What about stopping power, are the AK rounds a lot more powerful? Can you hunt with the Ar's with maybe a FMJ round that wont fragment? I read a 75 page article last night on the Ar's from TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite@groups.msn.com but am still lost.
Thanks,
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 12:59:28 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By txbubbastud:
I have a veteran officer who is telling me the AR15's are TERRIBLE and stay the hell away. He says go with the AK47's. He is telling me they are having trouble right now with the AR15's in Iraq (no matter how well maintained) and want to get rid of them. Is this true?


No, not by a long shot. I think your buddy is reading some of the fake e-mails that have been going around (they have been completely debunked). You can ask some of the Iraq veterans here what they think about their rifles.



Are the AK's much better then the AR's?





What about stopping power, are the AK rounds a lot more powerful?

I suggest you read the Ammo Oracle before going on.


Can you hunt with the Ar's with maybe a FMJ round that wont fragment?

People hunt with ARs all the time in various calibers (to include 5.56) check the hunting forum on this board.


I read a 75 page article last night on the Ar's from TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite@groups.msn.com but am still lost.

I have a 75 page article on there someplace?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:06:05 PM EDT
Your "veteran officer" is full of shit. In pretty much everything he related to you. Hang around here, look through some of the posts, read the Ammo Oracle that is tacked in the ammo forum. I don't even know where to begin with the retard you are talking about. They are not universally bitching about the "AR" over there. In general the M16/M4 is well-liked for what it is intended to do. The M14 DMR is out for long range hitting. Do you really think that if there was such a problem with the M16/M4 that 60 Minutes wouldn't be all over that? Hell look at what happened with the HMMWV not surving bombs that blow the hell out of PCs! Reliability issues with the M4/M16 are generally attributed to poor maintenance. Look at some of the posts from guys like RustedAce. He's got a pic of an M16 that you can barely see under a layer of dirt. No probs. AKs are great if you have to equip third world rabble. If you can teach your guys to perform some basic PMCS they'll do fine. I'd really like to know in what terms AKs are better. Certainly not in ergonomics. Stopping power is usually thrown around by those who have no idea what the hell they are talkign about. The Ammo Oracle is another good place to look for info on effectiveness. If you look for DocGKR here and on the Tactical Forums you will get a lot of info. The 5.56 is quite capable with many many loading outside fo the GI rounds. Go look in the hunting boards for info on hunting loads, and yes there are several of them.
As a side note, was your "veteran officer" an Army SEAL with Delta in the Nam?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:16:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
Your "veteran officer" is full of shit. In pretty much everything he related to you. Hang around here, look through some of the posts, read the Ammo Oracle that is tacked in the ammo forum. I don't even know where to begin with the retard you are talking about. They are not universally bitching about the "AR" over there. In general the M16/M4 is well-liked for what it is intended to do. The M14 DMR is out for long range hitting. Do you really think that if there was such a problem with the M16/M4 that 60 Minutes wouldn't be all over that? Hell look at what happened with the HMMWV not surving bombs that blow the hell out of PCs! Reliability issues with the M4/M16 are generally attributed to poor maintenance. Look at some of the posts from guys like RustedAce. He's got a pic of an M16 that you can barely see under a layer of dirt. No probs. AKs are great if you have to equip third world rabble. If you can teach your guys to perform some basic PMCS they'll do fine. I'd really like to know in what terms AKs are better. Certainly not in ergonomics. Stopping power is usually thrown around by those who have no idea what the hell they are talkign about. The Ammo Oracle is another good place to look for info on effectiveness. If you look for DocGKR here and on the Tactical Forums you will get a lot of info. The 5.56 is quite capable with many many loading outside fo the GI rounds. Go look in the hunting boards for info on hunting loads, and yes there are several of them.
As a side note, was your "veteran officer" an Army SEAL with Delta in the Nam?



big +1
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:30:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
As a side note, was your "veteran officer" an Army SEAL with Delta in the Nam?





I almost died when i got to that part! Heed the advice given here, lots of knowledgeable individuals around here.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:35:35 PM EDT
As the others have said, your bud is, .........uninformed (I'm being polite).

A properly functioning AR should be able to run for 800 to 1000 rounds before needing cleaning and lubrication.

A properly maintained AR is VERY reliable.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 4:55:27 PM EDT by Big-FED]
There are only two types of people:
1) those that read this forum and learn
2) those who don't and won't.

I had my first LEO job at 19 (I'm 62 now and retired) as a Federal Wildlife Aide (Federal Game Warden). My first "come to Jesus" opportunity came about three months into that career and I came away from that encounter with some life changing information. The first was that I was going to go home every damn night, employed or not. Another was that an M-14 is a very impressive and intimidating piece of hardware. The days I have to worry about going home from the "job" are done and so is, prretty much, the M-14 as an MBR. The AR-15/M-16 is a fact of life today and for the next several years.

In those years of working with DOD and civilian LEO, I have found a great lack of knowledge among the less than gung-ho LEOs about firearms. Those of us that grew up around them have learned that there is always something new to be learned. I am new the the AR-15 world, but I can get rounds downrange where I want them with an assortment of weapons.

Your first responsibiltiy as a LEO is public safety and an AK is contrary to that. In match after match, the worst AR-15/M-16 will outshoot the best AK when it comes to accuracy. If you, as a LEO, pull the trigger, that round better hit where you were aiming, not close, not almost, not "made him duck" or "crapped his pants".

I suspect your "veteran officer" has limited experience with ARs and probably considers his pump shotgun worthy of the term "sniper rifle". The big question is "what semi/full auto long gun" does your SWAT/HRT/TAC unit and any other similar unit in the entire state use? I'll bet they sure as hell don't use any AK based item.

When we on this forum offer an opinion, we will state it as such and you can take it as it is offered. But, the information meticulously gathered by the authors of Ammo Oracle www.ammo-oracle.com/ and other tables showing ballistics and performance is not "opinion". End of !

We welcome you to this forum and will do what we can to help all gain knowledge and skill.


ETA: You should also check out the 10-8 forum
www.10-eight.com/ and
www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=general.
Good read and info for "job" related issues.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:01:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:01:54 PM EDT by beet223]
WELL SAID BIG-FED I couldnt have said it better! Im not nor have i ever been LEO but i have every respect for you all and vets of our fine services. Im at this forum for the information and the enjoyment of our shooting sport. Many fine folks here its what makes me keep coming back.

HATS OFF TO YA ALL!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:01:27 PM EDT
Tell your veteran officer that this senior deputy and SWAT operator, told him to sit down and have a tall, frosty mug of STFU!

There's a reason that SWAT teams don't make entries with an AK.

By the way...welcome to the site!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:47:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:47:50 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
Another interesting perspective is to look at modern western countries that can afford ANY rifle system, and which ones they choose when they run trials to pick a new one. Or, look at special forces units (like the British SAS or others like them) that get to pick their own rifles.

Here's a hint: NOBODY picks the AK.


The popularity of the AK series is primarily due to its CHEAP price and SIMPLICITY, which both makes it very reliable, and also easy for illiterate peasants to operate. No doubt about it, the AK is a great design, and a super-durable weapon. However, when in the hands of a professional with a bare modicum of training, the AR is equally reliable, and vastly superior in terms of accuracy, modularity, sights, customization, ergonomics, etc. Unless you are dirt-poor, or retarded, or plan to drag the rifle through sticky mud, sand and feces on a daily basis without ever bothering to clean it, I don't see any reason to get an AK over an AR.


(It should be mentioned that there are some updated, modernized versions of the AK - like the Sig 55x series, I believe, that are slightly better - and in a sense try to combine the benefits of the AK series with some of the features of the AR series, but you don't see a lot of those in the U.S. and they are very expensive)
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:52:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:54:27 PM EDT by chas_martel]
>A properly functioning AR should be able to run for 800 to 1000 rounds
>before needing cleaning and lubrication.

I know for a "fact" an M16 will function after having fired, many, many, many more rounds than that
with no cleaning. I know of an M16 with about 5K rounds thru it - since its last cleaning - that is still running just fine. I am not advocating doing so, just pointing out they are capable of it.



Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:57:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:57:30 PM EDT by m24shooter]

Originally Posted By chas_martel:
I know for a "fact" an M16 will function after having fired, many, many, many more rounds than that
with no cleaning. I know of an M16 with about 5K rounds thru it - since its last cleaning - that is still running just fine. I am not advocating doing so, just pointing out they are capable of it.


[ululating]lalalalalalalalalalalal­a![/ululating]
Infidel! The AK is superior to all forms of capitalist pig weapons! The streets will flow with the blood of the unbelievers! All your M16s are belong to us!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:07:03 PM EDT
Wow... when I first started my mil career (the 70s!), there were those that hated the M16 and said it was going the way of the buffalo... it has to be the most hated, maligned and longest serving rifle in history.

A lot of folk jumped on the AR/M16 is being replaced bandwagon, just a few months ago even these pages had had posts of how the AR was down and the SCAR/XM8/WHATEVER was on the way in -- the fact that the media trumpeted the XM8 story a bit did not help. But, with some of the documents I have been looking at from the charges and investigation of contract corruption at McDill, there is more and more doubt about why we were even looking at these new guns.

The truth is that the M4 does have some issues with being over pressured and the gas system timing is off... this does cause problems, mostly during full auto fire... and yes, Uncle Sam wants to fix them. As to the fix being a whole new rifle? I doubt it, actually never have bought the idea.

So, the platform is great... if you are not stuck with an issue weapon the 16" midlength systems are a GREAT patrol rifle, far superior for the job as compaired to an AK.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:58:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dep4532:
Tell your veteran officer that this senior deputy and SWAT operator, told him to sit down and have a tall, frosty mug of STFU!

There's a reason that SWAT teams don't make entries with an AK.

By the way...welcome to the site!



To paraphrase Bill Engvals, the brain says STFU, but the mouth doesn't have any ears.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:34:57 PM EDT
Guys.. all of you said read ammo oracle.. that was the 75 page article i was talking about (I printed it.. took forever). I guess I need to re read it. I have sooo many other questions for ya but I really appreciate the quick responses. On a side note.. is it really cheaper to build your own vs. buy a preassembled? My dad has a DPMS that I may rip off from him, hell.. he hasnt opened it in over a year so Ill give him some cash for it.. but is it worth it (is DPMS a good or decent brand)? I know thats REALLY an open ended question, but knowing my dad it most likely has most of the bells and whistles on it. I hear yall talk about BM a lot so if he wont sell it to me I figure I will get a BM.

THANKS AGAIN AND I HAVE A LOT OF READING TO DO ON HERE.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:17:56 PM EDT
I got an AK I'll sell you never been fired and only dropped once ...and no Termites!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:42:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txbubbastud:
Guys.. all of you said read ammo oracle.. that was the 75 page article i was talking about (I printed it.. took forever). I guess I need to re read it. I have sooo many other questions for ya but I really appreciate the quick responses. On a side note.. is it really cheaper to build your own vs. buy a preassembled? My dad has a DPMS that I may rip off from him, hell.. he hasnt opened it in over a year so Ill give him some cash for it.. but is it worth it (is DPMS a good or decent brand)? I know thats REALLY an open ended question, but knowing my dad it most likely has most of the bells and whistles on it. I hear yall talk about BM a lot so if he wont sell it to me I figure I will get a BM.

THANKS AGAIN AND I HAVE A LOT OF READING TO DO ON HERE.



Do not get a DPMS - they are not well regarded around here for social work.
If you want a reliable, well made, semi-inexpensive AR - build your own up from a stripped lower.
If you can build a tinker toy, you can build your own AR.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:53:37 PM EDT
The Bushmaster AR15 with crome lined barrel is a wonderful weapon. It requires proper maintainance but is highly accurate and reliable. I own an AK (it was the first rifle I bought because of its reputation and the fact that is cost $350 versus $1200 for the Bushmaster. It is highly reliable but not very accurate. You can bang it around, carry it through mud etc and it will still shoot, but not very accurately.

I don't know where your friend got his information but I went shooting a month ago with a marine who just completed a tour in Iraq--he had nothing but good things to say about his M16.

We might be biased, on this board, but the AR15 is a beautiful weapon no question about it.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:04:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aristotle1:
The Bushmaster AR15 with crome lined barrel is a wonderful weapon. It requires proper maintainance but is highly accurate and reliable. I own an AK (it was the first rifle I bought because of its reputation and the fact that is cost $350 versus $1200 for the Bushmaster. It is highly reliable but not very accurate. You can bang it around, carry it through mud etc and it will still shoot, but not very accurately.

I don't know where your friend got his information but I went shooting a month ago with a marine who just completed a tour in Iraq--he had nothing but good things to say about his M16.

We might be biased, on this board, but the AR15 is a beautiful weapon no question about it.



Link Posted: 12/25/2005 8:58:38 PM EDT
txbubbastud

Welcome to the site.

An AK may have a lot more forgiving attributes going for it if you're operating in a talcum powder desert sh*thole; but if you're not planning to go to the middle east with it, an AR15 ought to serve you just fine and dandy.
They are certainly more accurate than an AK. As far as stopping power; you're not limited by only .223/5.56mm. You can easily switch out uppers (two push pins, under 2 minutes!) for 6.5mm Grendel, .300 Whisper, .50 Beowulf (see if an AK can match this thumper!), and a few other calipers are made for it also. A number of folks have decent success using .223 for hunting (check the hunting forum for better info than I can give you for deer; it'll kill coyotes all day long though).
See if that DPMS will run before you buy it; it may work just fine for you. If you want to build, find a lower with a roll stamp that you like (Denny's got a good deal on a real nice lower, right now) and build it up yourself. A lot of good info can be found on this site. Might want to go with a basic flat-top 16" mid-length or a 20" A2 for your first one. just my .02
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:45:42 AM EDT
I can tell you one thing. Around here an officer with an AK would be a public relations nightmare. If you have a patrol rifle program, protect it at all costs. Use quality equipment, and equipment that won't get you crucified in the local media.

A quality AR will do fine. Don't buy something cheap just because you can. The life you save may be mine, or your own. And base your choices on facts. Not fairy tales told by old time cops and gun store commandos.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:18:08 AM EDT
I use my AR everyday and I would rather have that then an AK
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