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Posted: 4/22/2008 3:31:32 PM EST
Just wondering if any of you guys have an AAR on these?
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 3:55:47 PM EST
I use the Bushmaster pins with a slight modification.



I looked at the KNS pins. They require a tool to remove in the field. The Bushmaster pins can removed with a car key, the tip of a cartridge or something similar.

Some folks say the pins aren't needed. Some say they are. Not going there. IBL.

I had a pin walk out because the idiot assembling the lower put the trigger pin in backwards. Yes, I was the idiot. Now all my ARs have the Bushmaster pins. They don't walk out(after an inexpensive modification) and they are very inexpensive ($4.00 at Del Ton ).

YMMV

ZM

Link Posted: 4/22/2008 4:02:02 PM EST
On an expensive M16 lower...I'd think so. On a regular AR...probably not. I'm going to to put them on my SBR lowers, since they are a life-time investment.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 4:03:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:18:37 PM EST
I noticed today when cleaning my 15T that the pins had stated walking slightly.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:23:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar:
I use the Bushmaster pins with a slight modification.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ZekeMenuar1/PinOne.jpg

I looked at the KNS pins. They require a tool to remove in the field. The Bushmaster pins can removed with a car key, the tip of a cartridge or something similar.

Some folks say the pins aren't needed. Some say they are. Not going there. IBL.

I had a pin walk out because the idiot assembling the lower put the trigger pin in backwards. Yes, I was the idiot. Now all my ARs have the Bushmaster pins. They don't walk out(after an inexpensive modification) and they are very inexpensive ($4.00 at Del Ton ).

YMMV

ZM



Never seen those. I presume they are on BM's site? How did you install pins backwards, I don't get it when they can be put in from either side?
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:27:00 PM EST
I recently ordered some oversize KNS pins (.1555) to try with my RRA 2 stage trigger. I don't know if I had a set of oversized pins with the stock LPK or if somehow the reciever got worn during installation or what, but the RRA pins that come with the match trigger are suppsed to be .156 and they slid into the lower too easy. The trigger wobbles and the pins rotate when fired. The RRA says it is supposed to use the oversized pins so the hammer rotates over the pins, not with it.

Although, the more I think about it, maybe the RRA I got off the EE had regular pins....
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:27:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:48:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By chewbacca:

Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar:
I use the Bushmaster pins with a slight modification.

................................................................................

ZM



Never seen those. I presume they are on BM's site? How did you install pins backwards, I don't get it when they can be put in from either side?


Yes. The Bushmaster pins can go in from either side. There is no groove in the pins like regular AR pins

Bushmaster anti-walk pins

Del Ton has them too, but the finish is rougher on the Del Ton pins.

ZM
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 5:52:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


+1
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 6:15:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar:
I had a pin walk out because the idiot assembling the lower put the trigger pin in backwards.


Oh crap...I wonder if that is why mine walked halfway out....

I am an idiot.... I better go find out the correct way....
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 6:35:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 6:36:07 PM EST
Do you need ...........no. Looks cool, gives you a little joy in this f*cked up world, definate .......yes.
Do what you like, not what the herd does.
Z
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 7:33:18 PM EST
ZekeMenuar, I still don't get how you can put pins in backwards? Can you explain?
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 7:34:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2008 7:34:48 PM EST by aIIan]
they won't hurt.


Originally Posted By SethP:
Just wondering if any of you guys have an AAR on these?


what ever you do, do not ask a vet
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 7:37:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2008 7:38:08 PM EST by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By M4builder:
i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/bloom.jpg





That's awesome.

I miss markm.


ETA: Regarding the pins -- I can see wanting them if you're seeing trigger pin rotation on a nice match trigger, or a registered lower.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 8:30:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2008 8:31:00 PM EST by ZekeMenuar]

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
ZekeMenuar, I still don't get how you can put pins in backwards? Can you explain?


The stock AR pins have a groove that a spring leg rests in. If that pin is reversed, it can walk out.

Happened to me at the range a couple of months ago.

ZM
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 8:37:24 PM EST
I guess I am the idiot who put mine in backwards and they walked on me. I installed the KNS pins so I never do that again.

Peace of mind.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 8:50:17 PM EST
$32 insurance on my sbr lower, I consider em piece of mind.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 9:48:57 PM EST
My pins where walking out a little just at the range. I added KNS pins for one less thing to have to worry about. KNS is great.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 10:03:11 PM EST
Now the question

Gen I vs Gen II pins, which is better for a semi-auto?
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 11:39:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


YUP
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 1:57:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:44:15 AM EST
Haven't had an issue w/ any of mine. If anything I would think the added recoil of 6.8 would make a pin walk. Nothing yet. If it happened to me I would be inclined to try a little locktite like bigbore mentioned.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:52:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2008 2:53:34 AM EST by ak4784]

Originally Posted By fultoncoshooter:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


YUP


In YOUR opinion its a waste of money. Im guessing you guys buy the cheap sand paper toilet paper to? Some of us want the best money can buy when it comes to our hobbies and weapons. If there is something I can do to my rifle to improve on it, Ill do it, it sure cant hurt to have the pins installed. Dont listen to anybody here, if you want them, get them.......its your rifle.

Plus, you can deny that it looks cool as hell

you can tell where I stand on this issue.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:55:25 AM EST
Didnt somebody get banned over this debate one time? I think so
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:14:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2008 3:15:53 AM EST by NVBGear]
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:24:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By HaloC1:
My pins where walking out a little just at the range. I added KNS pins for one less thing to have to worry about. KNS is great.


The pins on my 9mm walked a lot. So I installed the KNS pins.

Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:38:09 AM EST
Generally speaking, I think KNS pins and winter trigger guards are both wastes of money but if that what other people what to spend their money on, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Unlike a lot of people in this hobby, I've got better things to do then judge other people and their equipment

As far are as the KNS pins go, If I had an registered lower (particularly an M16 or 9mm) I would use them (I will be using them on my 9mm SBR) but none of my other ARs have them.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:47:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 7:19:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By vicious_cb:
Now the question

Gen I vs Gen II pins, which is better for a semi-auto?


I called KNS Precision and asked this exact question a while ago, I was told to go with the Gen 2 pin set. They said the Gen 1 pins might break, especially in a 9mm AR. I was also told if you have the Gen 1 set they will upgrade them for you, I can't recall if he said they would swap them for free or not. I've been buying the Gen 2 pins even though the Gen 1 set looks nicer, either way it's cheap insurance.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 8:08:42 AM EST
Not really needed.

I use them anyway. I think they are cool.

Besides what's another $30 in a $2000+ carbine/rifle?

Link Posted: 4/23/2008 8:29:53 AM EST
RATHER BUY A TITANIUM FIREING PIN
TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 8:31:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By M4builder:


Love Markm

Did he get BANNED?

If so why
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 8:33:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By ak4784:

Originally Posted By fultoncoshooter:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


YUP


In YOUR opinion its a waste of money. Im guessing you guys buy the cheap sand paper toilet paper to? Some of us want the best money can buy when it comes to our hobbies and weapons. If there is something I can do to my rifle to improve on it, Ill do it, it sure cant hurt to have the pins installed. Dont listen to anybody here, if you want them, get them.......its your rifle.

Plus, you can deny that it looks cool as hell

you can tell where I stand on this issue.



buy a TITANIUM FIRE PIN THEN
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 8:34:40 AM EST
Definitely not necessary in my opinion, but if you have the extra time and cash - why not?
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 9:03:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar:

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
ZekeMenuar, I still don't get how you can put pins in backwards? Can you explain?


The stock AR pins have a groove that a spring leg rests in. If that pin is reversed, it can walk out.

Happened to me at the range a couple of months ago.

ZM


But there are two legs of the hammer spring, so no matter which way you put the trigger pin in, one of the legs will sit in the groove.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 9:15:52 AM EST
i've got them in all 3 of my AR's esp the 9mm
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 10:10:15 AM EST
I'm curious now, why would pins in a 9mm rifle be more prone to walking or rotating?
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 10:37:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2008 10:38:08 AM EST by Banzai]

Originally Posted By ftwm:
I'm curious now, why would pins in a 9mm rifle be more prone to walking or rotating?


They're not, the hammer pin is prone to breaking in 9mm ARs that don't use a ramped bolt carrier. The second gen KNS pins uses a solid hammer pin, which can and does stand up to the beating that this particular configuration dishes out. Even with a ramped bolt carrier, it's cheap insurance.

Tom
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 10:40:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


10-4
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 11:43:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By NVBGear:
Cheap insurance on an NFA item.


Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 1:38:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By NVBGear:
Cheap insurance on an NFA item.


Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can.


Please elaborate? What problems could they cause for NFA specific guns only?
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 1:54:24 PM EST
Ok. I just installed them on the lower I spoke of earlier with the RRA 2stage trigger. The KNS oversized pins definitely made the trigger pull more consistent and it seems lighter, but that could just be because it is more consistent. There is far less wobble in the trigger than there was before.

Bottom line, having 2 RRA 2 stage triggers without and 1 same trigger now with the KNS pins, it is worth it in the aforementioned lower because something was wrong. Either the pins that came with that specific trigger were not oversized as they are supposed to be, or the lower holes were too large for whatever reason.

But the pins are working great and have really made the pull more consistent, which makes sense since now the trigger is not moving laterally and the hammer is rotating over the pin instead of with it.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:11:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By FMJ:

Originally Posted By ak4784:

Originally Posted By fultoncoshooter:

Originally Posted By bigbore:
waste of money


YUP


In YOUR opinion its a waste of money. Im guessing you guys buy the cheap sand paper toilet paper to? Some of us want the best money can buy when it comes to our hobbies and weapons. If there is something I can do to my rifle to improve on it, Ill do it, it sure cant hurt to have the pins installed. Dont listen to anybody here, if you want them, get them.......its your rifle.

Plus, you can deny that it looks cool as hell

you can tell where I stand on this issue.



buy a TITANIUM FIRE PIN THEN



I would if it worked better than a regular one, but it doesnt. The same cannot be said for things like the KNS pins, heavy buffers, aftermarket pistol grips. All of which are improvements over the origional.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:17:50 PM EST
I ordered a set for my Colt 6920 at the same time I ordered my Geissele trigger - my thinking - what is $30 or $40 when your buying the IMHO best trigger available !
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:28:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By aIIan:
what ever you do, do not ask a vet

Haha, thanks for the advice.

Glad that at least someone got why i was irritable that day.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:38:32 PM EST
It helped my trigger. It's sturdy and firm again.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:58:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2008 3:05:19 PM EST by RenegadeX]

Originally Posted By Banzai:

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By NVBGear:
Cheap insurance on an NFA item.


Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can.


Please elaborate? What problems could they cause for NFA specific guns only?


They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away.

The other problem (remember, they were originally marketed as "Anti-Rotation Pins"), is well, they prevent rotation. But rotation is what you want. By not allowing the pins to rotate, there is a heat build-up from friction, which causes metal fatigue, and thus the pins are more prone to breakage. Then you have the problem I mentioned above. This obviously affects NFA (MGs) owners more than semi-auto owner guns.

There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns.

Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:06:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Northbilly:
I ordered a set for my Colt 6920 at the same time I ordered my Geissele trigger - my thinking - what is $30 or $40 when your buying the IMHO best trigger available !

Well in this particular case, it's definitely a waste of money. There was a thread a couple of days ago that detailed how Geissele himself states not to use KNS pins with his match trigger. Apparently that trigger is precisely tuned for the pins he ships with it. The KNS pins, being a different dia. actually take away from the exact angles he sets those triggers up with. So bascially you just spent $30-$40 to make your new "best trigger available" worse!
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 3:09:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By Banzai:

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By NVBGear:
Cheap insurance on an NFA item.


Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can.


Please elaborate? What problems could they cause for NFA specific guns only?


They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away.

There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns.


If my 9mm can't break a 2nd gen KNS pin, nothing will. From that point on, your argument is invalid to me, as I do not have the luxuary of replacing my M16 at tax payer's expense. I've broken standard hammer pins twice in my Colt pattern 9mm. First time was less than 1k rounds, then again about 2500 rounds later. Almost 5K on the KNS pins, no issues.

I do own an M16, and I put KNS pins in it as a precaution because of my experience with my 9mm, and I sometimes use one of my 9mm uppers on it. If I ever do manage to break a KNS pin, .5.56, 9mm, 458 SOCOM, 6.5, or 6.8 upper, I'll post here second (I'll call KNS for replacements first).

It's up to you, your money. I spent my money where I

The great thing about America is that we can all like and have different things. Otherwise, the lines would be long and life would be boring.
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