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Posted: 12/29/2003 11:08:18 AM EDT
Frankly, I am getting a little annoyed with the childish (in my opinion) feuding that I see on thread after thread. Certain members feel obliged to restart the wars and accusations whenever one company's product comes up. GIVE IT A REST!!

I think we can all agree that KAC and ARMS both make fine products. Lots of people like them. I don't have a RIS, RAS or SIR. I've studied them quite a lot and if I ever get one or the other, I'll probably go with the RAS. But not because I think the SIR is an inferior product. If the fighting factions haven't figured it out, both systems have advantages and disadvantages over the other and the weighting of those differences is subjective. Probably the biggest subjective factor is the least important. How it looks. Some guys like red heads, but they just don't do it for me. Same thing for the SIR. It sounds like a great product and there are things I like, but its a "red head". Doesn't mean everyone one else can't like it.

I have a semi-auto AR15. Not an M16. I don't do full auto (not on this one at least). I buy my own ammo, plus support a family on one income. If I blow off 500-1000 rds, it will be in some serious training, not just ripping lead as fast as I can just for the hell of it. What does this mean? I'm not worried about a huge heat build up.

I don't have lasers or night vision (though the NV would be nice), and I don't like vertical grips. I do like flashlights and I use a bolt on rail on my handguard. If I eventually get a rail system, it will probably be because I want to free-float the barrel and I like the looks of one of the rail forends. What it comes down to is this, I'll probably be amply satisfied with the performance of either a SIR or RAS. Looks and/or feel will be the deciding point.

Guys...get a clue. Most are like me. What is subjectively important to you or someone else is of no importance to me. And if my likes & dislikes are important to you, you need to get a life!

Quit the feuding comparisons! They don't help. If you want to tell us who you work for, fine. I don't really care. Same for you who don't fess up.

Rant over.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:24:59 AM EDT
I'm a "low speed FIRSH lover". TISATAAFL and it's me.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:40:06 AM EDT
Hey leave the redheads out of this.[;)] Ridge(happily married to a gorgeous red"head" [naughty])
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:51:19 AM EDT
Aimpoint is a MUCH better optic than the EoTech, oh, wait, sorry guys, wrong thread. [peep]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:57:43 AM EDT
No need to fight over...they are top-notch. My opinion on them are as follows: 1.KAC M4/M5 RAS -Very easily installable / removable -Bottom rail is removable for maintenance -Doesn't free-float but rigid enough for most -Added weight will shift the Point of Impact -"Wide-spread" battle proven -Need panels to protect unused rails -Comes with 3 panels -Doesn't interfere with height of receiver rail -Rail is interrupted above delta ring -Maintains somewhat traditional looking 2.KAC FF RAS -Needs some gun smithing to install / remove -Free floats and very rigid -Need panels to protect unused rails -Comes with 3 panels -Doesn't interfere with height of reciever rail -Rail is interrupted above delta ring -Maintains somewhat traditional looking 3.ARMS SIR -Very easily installable / removable -Bottom portion is removable for maintenance -Free floats and extremely rigid -Selective rails, no panels -Accessories will be farther out from the center of bore due to the nature of selective rails (I really don't like this) -Uninterrupted rail (optional with Bi-levels) -Raises the height of receiver rail (no problem with Aimpoint, but some with ACOGs) -Comes with sling stud -Slightly heavier than all RAS models -Low-profile PEQ-2 dedicated mount (45,46 only) Personally, if it was easy to install like RAS, my choice would be FF RAS hands down. I have handled M4 RAS and I'm currently using 46C SIR. I like the fact that I don't have panels to fiddle with, and that SIR is a FF system without any gunsmithing needed. However, when I want to attach a thing, I have to attach the rail and attach that accessory on top of that. This has two disadvantages. First is the weight (since you have to add the weight of selected rail, where as in RAS you subtract weight since you remove panels). Second is that accesorry tends to mount farther away from the weapon. So in my opinion (from a SIR user) if you need to attach a lot of crap (on all sides) I'd go for FF RAS. If you want to be able to remove handguards and to maintenance I'd go for RAS II (carbine only though). If you need to occasionally attach something or mainly attach stuff on 6 o'clock position (M900A in most cases), SIR is very good for you. Also, what a lot of people tend to miss is that RAS and FF RAS comes with 3 11 rib panels, which retails for about $20 each. So if you assume M4 RAS is $300, it is really around $240.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:57:58 AM EDT
The RAS and SIR are great products, and someday I might get one. Until then I'm ignoring all RAS/SIR comparisons. I've read enough of them. Oh yea, I'm a FIRSH lover too.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:29:12 PM EDT
Thats pretty funy about cost figuring. It's like saying that covertible car isn't really that much money if the top isn't included:)
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:33:03 PM EDT
Thats pretty funy about cost figuring. It's like saying that covertible car isn't really that much money if the top isn't included:) Oh yeh, the sling swivel that comes with the Sir doesn't matter even though I have to buy one for the other rail:) Logical????????, like rebates, they take your money and give it back to you and your supposed to say that's great and wow! Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:42:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 12:50:11 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
POF Predator beats both KAC and ARMS rails...[b]NOT[/b]![BD][;)][:D] Seriously though, we're like a big happy disfunctional family here. We would be miserable if there wasn't all this gear to haggle and fight over.[}:D] The bottom line is that it's really nothing to worry over. The selection of a rail system depends on many things like the purpose of the rifle, the accessories you need to mount and plain old user preference. All the rail systems have pro's and cons and no one system can do everything for everyone. The best thinkg do is sit back look at the info presented and select the one that best meets your needs. Cheers!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:45:47 PM EDT
Right, so we can get back to more pressing matters, like whether or not the 223 is suitable for deer. Is it?[BD]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 12:59:36 PM EDT by Hawkeye]
OK. I'll give it a rest. There. I did. Now, [b]BACK TO WAR!!!!![/b] (now if I could only decide which side I want to be on.[BD])
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:02:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hokie: Aimpoint is a MUCH better optic than the EoTech, oh, wait, sorry guys, wrong thread. [peep]
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Yup. Seriously, Ive have my preferences, but my guns are a nice mix from both ARMS and KAC. I use what I works for me, not because I have any loyalty to any particular brand. Thats the way it should be Id think. If someone asks about a particular piece of gear, Im more than happy to give my opinion of it, but if thats what they want, more power to them. Its their money. Its not like they'd go wrong buying from either company.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:06:59 PM EDT
I solved the whole problem [for me anyway]and bought both SIR-M and RASII .......I LOVE THIS COUNTRY
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:35:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StonerStudent: I solved the whole problem [for me anyway]and bought both SIR-M and RASII .......I LOVE THIS COUNTRY
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And, once again, the arfcom unofficial motto; "get both"
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:41:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By notack: And, once again, the arfcom unofficial motto; "get both"
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[:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:49:56 PM EDT
Ford or Chevy EOTech or Aimpoint RAS or SIR .45 or 9mm
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:52:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 1:56:12 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Now come on, everyone knows, Aimpoint and .45ACP [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:00:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Now come on, everyone knows, Aimpoint and .45ACP [:D]
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Lumpy196, At least you got it half right, I always knew you weren't a complete fool![:D][;)]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:06:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Now come on, everyone knows, Aimpoint and .45ACP [:D]
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Lumpy196, At least you got it half right, I always knew you weren't a complete fool![:D][;)]
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No doubt Yo, .45 all the way!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:08:12 PM EDT
Oh boy, wait until I throw a monkey wrench in to the machinery!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:24:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:45:56 PM EDT
Troy, I agree. That's what I was trying to say. I've got the ARMS#40 and ARMS mounts for my Aimpoint. I love them. People like both so can we please, please quit the partisan bickering. Feel free to like what you like, but give me a break and lay off telling me why my xxx is a piece of crap because it's made by the other guy. Either that or confine it to a thread dedicated to partisan bickering!!!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:52:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 3:55:07 PM EDT by knightone]
That's right, let KAC and ARMS duke it out while LMT and Daniel Defense sneak up behind and take center stage! So who's going to start the DD and LMT feud? As far as ARMS and KAC...both are good companies who make good products. But just so we're clear, the RAS is better right?...right?[}:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:16:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 4:28:19 PM EDT by AKM]
That's right, let KAC and ARMS duke it out while LMT and Daniel Defense sneak up behind and take center stage!
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Probably the reason why ARMS protested, and stalled the trials [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:11:24 PM EDT
What Army, not ours, as the requirments require an M203 launcher be able to attach to the weapon, the Surefire doesn't allow that. Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:20:47 PM EDT
Hm, I don't recall such bitterness, nor have I seen many of us taking sides. 3rdtk and coldblue seem to go back and forth a bit but they also have a healthy respect for the "other" products, this is by no means saying 3rdtk is ARMS or works for ARMS, for I know and care not. In the mean time, I'm in the KAC camp, eyeing jealously over the ARMS table [bd]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:55:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: What Army, not ours, as the requirments require an M203 launcher be able to attach to the weapon, the Surefire doesn't allow that. Jack
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Was this menat for this thread: [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=176356&page=4&w=myTopicPop]Surefire M73[/url]?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:13:21 PM EDT
I honestly don't know how it got over to this one, as someone said the army were going to buy 10,000 surefire hand guards somewere and I responded. Sorry, I don't know how it got here as I don't see the coment I respnded to. Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:17:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy: In the mean time, I'm in the KAC camp, eyeing jealously over the ARMS table
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Same here...I'm using mostly ARMS stuff, but I seriously think RAS/FF RAS just looks better on AR and a little bit light too. Maybe thats why the KAC VFG looks out of place on my SIR. Need to find a new home for that KAC VFG... hey I got a rifle with standard handguards [}:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:29:03 PM EDT
lol Mav, I don't have a single AR15 that has the standard stock left, as a result I'm left with all kinds of carbine and rifle handguards, gathering dust. I distantly remember the days when I thought the double shielded Colt M4 handguards were the sh*t [peep]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:24:37 PM EDT
I remember the first RIS... I never thought it would take off into a monster obsession that disolves my meager salary.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:45:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinB: I remember the first RIS... I never thought it would take off into a monster obsession that disolves my meager salary.
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I hear ya on that! BTW....what the hell is a SIR?[BD]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 5:34:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Horik: BTW....what the hell is a SIR?[BD]
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Isn't that some kind of an officer?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 8:20:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinB: I remember the first RIS... I never thought it would take off into a monster obsession that disolves my meager salary.
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I remember a few years ago when I first got into ARs. I thought the rail systems were unnecesary. I also thought vertical foregrips were stupid. However, I bought an RAS and a foregrip to try...the rest is history. I keep trying to put together a basic upper again, but every time I do, another rail system comes along and I change my build. The RAS was first, then the FF RAS, then the FF RAS MRE, then the Daniel Defense systems come out. I still want to get a #58MOD, an MRP, a couple of URXs, and whatever DD comes out with next. I'll pobably end up eating mac n'cheese every meal for the next two or three years. Oh well.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:10:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By knightone: I'll pobably end up eating mac n'cheese every meal for the next two or three years. Oh well.
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Contrary to popular belief, man CAN live on Mac&cheese!![banana]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:20:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By knightone: I'll pobably end up eating mac n'cheese every meal for the next two or three years. Oh well.
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Contrary to popular belief, man CAN live on Mac&cheese!![banana]
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With a little ketchup and tabasco, I think I can stomach it for a good while.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:35:44 AM EDT
Well said Dorsai but leave the red heads out of it! The same argument goes for Aimpoints vs. EOtech vs. whatevers and several other such arguments. As an example I routinely see the post "what's the best AR" or "whats the best sight" - who in their right mind could answer that question! The rifle and sight have to match the type of shooting the guy with the question is asking under the conditions they're shooting in. I see no need for an acuracy robbing weight adding rail system of any sort but it's plain to see pleny of people do. So be it. Let them add weights and change the accuracy of their weapons all they want as it's their shooting and their conditions. If they go to hang rails off of my fore ends is where I draw the line. Too many people get all excited and ticked off at what other people do to their own rifles. You can lead a goat to water but you can't make it give milk. You can explain your point of view but unless you're the other person you can't make their choices for them. I would also add that some people spend more money on gadgets than on practice ammo looking for a weapon that looks cool. I learned 25 years ago that you buy something for the way it performs not the way it looks and that's worked pretty well for me so far.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:16:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 6:18:27 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Ford or Chevy EOTech or Aimpoint RAS or SIR .45 or 9mm
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I may live in the KAC camp, but I'm going to have to agree with jethead on this one.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:11:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 7:11:55 AM EDT by SULACO2]
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Ford or Chevy EOTech or Aimpoint RAS or SIR .45 or 9mm
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Tastes great or less filling. [;D] /S2
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:20:47 PM EDT
I dont understand why this post was made. I have never seen anyone only push one product and bash the competition but 3rdtk. There are not other members or groups of people I have seen bicker or take sides. This whole thread makes no sense to me.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:30:36 PM EDT
Devl, you seem to only read what ya want, and should read many of my other posts, and also more carefully some of others who disguise what they say:) Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:59:22 PM EDT
DevL - I like tossing stones at "Jack" as much as the next guy [;)] But to his credit I know he has complemented KAC items and C Reed personally, as well as both PRI and LMT. (In whichever 3rdtk personality mode) Right now I would not want to start anything between the SOPMOD candidates for IMHO they are all that stands between us and a plastic rifle. -Kevin
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:47:28 PM EDT
The question is not 3rdtk not giving other products props. Your falling for his line. If you will notice he never says anything negative about ARMS products. Never. I have something bad to say about everything. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:32:06 PM EDT
I have said I wish something on an ARMS product and that I didn't know something and asked questions to others, is that permitted? Is that OK, since others have pretty much had the same thoughts on the same product line? I hope I didn't offend anyone, please forgive me for liking a product line as much as others like other product lines. I'm also real sorry that I give facts more often than opinion, and that if anyone wants to check them out, well do so, but that makes work I guess. To top it off, if a documented engineering or historical fact gets in the way of mis information, I feel real bad again. Jack
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:46:56 PM EDT
Its New Years stop feeling so bad [;D] DevL - dont worry I am still # 1 KAC Cheerleader
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:01:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinB: dont worry I am still # 1 KAC Cheerleader
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[SHOCK] Bad visuals.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:43:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By KevinB: dont worry I am still # 1 KAC Cheerleader
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[SHOCK] Bad visuals.
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It looks like Kevin might have given you a "Crying Game" expierence! [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:48:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By knightone:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By knightone: I'll pobably end up eating mac n'cheese every meal for the next two or three years. Oh well.
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Contrary to popular belief, man CAN live on Mac&cheese!![banana]
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With a little ketchup and tabasco, I think I can stomach it for a good while.
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Just dump in a can of tuna for extra protein once in a while [:)]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:25:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 6:26:14 AM EDT by IronBalaclava]
I like to get taboo and invite both KAC/ARMS products to Swing[banana] together when it's time to play!
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:41:32 AM EDT
You guys living on mac & cheese, try Ramen noodle soup, its cheaper and can sustain you... trust me I know [:D]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:05:50 PM EDT
Hey Kevin, show us your POM-POMs!!! Jackie:)
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