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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/31/2005 11:45:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 12:41:23 PM EDT by -Watcher-]
Recently, I've been in search of a KAC 2-stage trigger for a project I'm working on. As I've contemplated the available prices, it has been suggested that I might consider an LMT trigger as an equal (or better) substitute. Thing is, I've never even seen the LMT model in person, by itself or installed.

Before I even think about contacting the buyer, I'd appreciate feedback from any of you who have used both. Regardless of what I can look up on the Internet, this question is going to be almost entirely about performance. What are the comparative positives and negatives -- apart from price, alone? Should I believe the tales of KAC set screws backing out, for example? Not being a marksman, myself, I'd appreciate keeping your remarks clear and well-explained.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:11:55 PM EDT
I have heard of both failing but never seen it firsthand. I have heard of a factory Colt trigger failing too. The final decsion will be do you think the KAC is enough better to justify the price increase over an LMT. You need to try them yourself to establish that. If set screws on the KAC concern you locktite them and they cant move. I never had a problem with mine. I dont know if I would pay the $300+ prices I am seeing for them nowdays though.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:30:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 12:36:53 PM EDT by -Watcher-]
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:31:41 PM EDT
At best, I'm a plinker. So using the trigger would have little to no value for me, personally. Likewise, I'm not encountering $300 prices for the KAC model (assuming that's the one you mean). In fact, not to stray off topic, but I've been buying quite a few KAC products of late and have found everything at nearly the 2000-2001 Commercial Price List (latest one I have a copy of) numbers. Which is to say, the items I have found.

That said, no two products are identical. In order to offer the buyer a reason to purchase one versus the other, I'm seeking feedback from those who have used both and are willing to distinguish what they thought were the good and bad of each.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:42:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:47:30 PM EDT
I inquired about the difference between the LMT and the RR - never got a real answer.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:54:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 6:56:54 PM EDT by edwin907]

Originally Posted By WSAR15:
I inquired about the difference between the LMT and the RR - never got a real answer.




Well, after researching the heck out of it, I decided on the LMT 2 stage for one of my lowers, WES sent me an excellent one he personally picked out of a LMT lower and I thank him for that.
I think that the LMT is more reliable than the RR from what I have gathered on this forum.
The LMT isn't as good as my KAC, but it's pretty dang close, and at 1/2 the price, a bargain.

I have never had a problem with my KAC, it's adjustable but you loctite it, and I set mine up where you can take it to the break 100 times without dropping the hammer (with 4.5lb spring), a little firmer than most I'm sure, but dead solid reliable.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:45:44 PM EDT
KAC was chosen by spec ops for the SPR, that speaks volumes.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:52:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 8:05:17 PM EDT by altav]
I swapped out my LMT triggers for KAC ones... In one, I did have the screw back out on me but with a little help from coldblue and Loctite, the problem was resolved and should no longer be an issue. I personally think the KAC feels better than the LMT, but if I wasn't a KAC fanatic, I don't know if it's good enough to warrant almost double the price. Scratch that, the KAC is worth the price. Just popped a LMT trigger into a spare lower I have and did a side by side comparison and the KAC is in a league of its own.

As for the KAC to RR comparison, there is none - KAC all the way.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:21:34 PM EDT
KAC no doubt!
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:14:17 AM EDT
KAC is probably the best technically, but the price is high. I have one in my SPR and it is the best trigger I've ever seen on a semi-auto rifle. I don't think one can go wrong with a KAC if they can justify the price, and that's an individual choice.

The LMT will probably serve very well too, and the price is more affordable.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 12:26:34 PM EDT
Watcher--
I have a factory installed KAC 2-stage in my SR-15 M4. I also have a LMT 2-stage that I installed in a LMT lower with KNS pins. I do not profess to be an expert on the mechanics of the systems and neither have been "tuned." I have observed that the KAC has a smoother (if that is a word) release. Both break better than RRA and LMT single stages. They are both in semi guns. In recently buying the LMT, I felt it was worth much more than the RRA 2-stages which can be purchased on the EE for less than $90. I was not all that impressed with some of the other 2-stages, especially the ones with adjustable springs. I figured I would find a way to break them. I ended up going with the most simple system that had the fewest parts. I did not consider the Chip McCormick system. Unless you have a KAC fetish, I would spend my money on the LMT or McCormick which Wes suggested.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 12:50:34 PM EDT
I have neither the KAC nor the LMT, but I do have thoughts on some others. The CMC looks promising, I'll let you know after I get one and use it awhile. I would avoid the RRA--we have had two, and both went Tango Uniform at low round counts.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:00:25 PM EDT
Does somebody have picks?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:23:33 AM EDT
My experience has been with KAC parts so, naturally, I tend to lean in that direction. In the decade I've been out of the trade, a lot of products and manufacturers have come on the scene. Some of the newer products have become market favorites for their honest improvements to the complete system. The Crane-type stock stands as an example of this.

Other products offer only marginal improvement for a non-service rifle. These are parts like the LMT improved bolt. It does the job as advertised, but the ordinary recreational shooter will rarely encounter the reliability problem this bolt is meant to correct in the first place.

Then there's the notion that you get what you pay for. I've seen more than a few products "value engineered" to lesser materials and/or lower production standards. These products become hit or miss. If you get a good one, you can brag all the way to the bank how your cheaper model performs the same as your buddy's bank breaker. A bad one will convince you it wasn't cheaper so much as cheap.

So, what we're really talking about, here, is quality for application. Two-stage triggers aren't the end-all replacement for standard triggers. As a rule, their expense is most justified only in target weapons. The project I'm currently developing for a buyers is a non-competition marksmanship rifle. There are some quirky requests on the order, but the rest is mostly my call, subject to approval. Do I really want to build a $2K rifle and throw a cheap trigger in that will be back for service/replacement in a few weeks or months? What I want is value for the money, but with a minimum threshhold on performance.

With the replies I've received to this post, I've noted one basic commonality. Beyond price, noone has bad-mouthed KAC, while opinions differ on other brands. So, I've found a private seller online who's parting with a NIW KAC 2-stage trigger for just over $200, delivered. These kinds of transactions make me a bit nervous, but I've had good luck finding KAC parts this way, of late. I've also contacted the folks at KAC and they've offered to walk me through proper installation by phone, since the tweaking instructions with the trigger aren't the best written.

Thank you each for your input. I believe joining this forum was an excellent decision on my part.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:13:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 9:15:48 PM EDT by mib2000]
Used my KAC in my M4gery for a couple/few years, in field use, square range, comps. No issues. Very crisp.

The KAC went into my 20" custom target .223 AR:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=245132

Install was a bit of a pain ... but so it goes.

A White Oak Armament-tuned RRA trigger from ADCO then went into the M4gery.

As good a value as the latter unit is, the KAC is a far superior trigger, in my view.

The CMC trigger is the other I would look at for an M4gery or the like.

But seems like it would be tough to top the KAC for a precision rifle built on the AR platform, especially if reliability is a concern. Guys love their Jewell triggers, but it strikes me as an awfully complex design. YMMV

Regards,
mib2000
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