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Posted: 9/8/2004 6:10:46 AM EST
I'm looking into triggers... I'm wondering which triggers are the most reliable... do either of these triggers use standard hammers in a stock single stage... or do they have a lightened up hammer such as the RRA 2 stage...

Whats your experience with either of these triggers? Anyone having problems with KAC's trigger?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 7:19:14 AM EST
jar3ds,
I just installed my LMT 2 stage, but have not had a chance to shoot it yet. If you're able to hit the range with me next week you're more than welcome to take a look at it and try it out!!

I have not seen or tried a KAC trigger, so I cannot compare.

GIFFMANN
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:17:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
Whats your experience with either of these triggers? Anyone having problems with KAC's trigger?

Thanks!



Many rounds through a KAC, not problems at all
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:33:26 PM EST
Both triggers are good, the KAC is superior though.
HFG
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 3:42:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Both triggers are good, the KAC is superior though.
HFG




HFG,
What makes the KAC trigger $100 better? Since I have no experience with it I'd be interested to hear the differences.

Thanks!



Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:19:50 PM EST
I would love to hear from somebody who actually has expierence with both.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:44:11 PM EST
I have an (White Oak tuned) RRA and a KAC. The RRA is in my M4gery and the KAC is in my A4gery. I just like the 2-stage feel. They are both set up for a 3.5# first stage and an additional 1# second stage. They both kick ass. The KAC is made to much higher tolerances and is easily adjustable. Due to this, you can get the "breaks like glass" feeling. The RRA is non-adjustable and the second stage just feels a little "mushy". Don't get me wrong, I still love it, that's just the way I can describe the difference. I like the RRA for a carbine as I don't want something that's adjustable. I want it to go boom every time. Short of a GI trigger, the RRA is the closest to that in terms of reliability.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:40:26 PM EST
Since it costs more, it is naturally better.
-Steve
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:43:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 6:28:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Both triggers are good, the KAC is superior though.
HFG



Do you own both the KAC and the LMT?
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 9:11:20 PM EST
i want to know how mechanically the lmt and the kac compare... is the lmt just a copy of the kac? etc...

lumpy... did you ever in up getting that kac trigger?
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:00:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:14:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Both triggers are good, the KAC is superior though.
HFG



Do you own both the KAC and the LMT?



Own and have fitted both - the KAC is better, worth the extra money, that's your call.
HFG
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:21:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By giffmann:

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Both triggers are good, the KAC is superior though.
HFG




HFG,
What makes the KAC trigger $100 better? Since I have no experience with it I'd be interested to hear the differences.

Thanks!






I can't say what value the extra performance of the KAC trigger is worth and with anything from Knight's there is a price premium you are paying, that said, the fit, finish and ability to finely tune the break point gives the KAC the upper hand. Another interesting point is that after multiple thousands of rounds, the trigger still feels the same, none of them have ever gone out of adjustment. The LMT trigger is a simpler affair and as with all of LMT's stuff, the good ones are great and the bad ones are crap. We have only seen one good one go out of set-up adjustment and changing the screws rectified that problem.

I would compare then to a Geo and a BMW - both will get you there, one does it with a bit more style.
HFG
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:59:53 AM EST
I have both and the LMT feels a tiny bit lighter in the second stage, but not as crisp as the KAC. I installed the KAC myself but have not done any adjustment to it. I had someone else install the LMT. I have not had any reliability issues with either one.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 9:16:01 AM EST
hum... does anyone have a side by side comparision of these two triggers... i want to see them mechanically...

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:00:39 PM EST
Another KAC trigger owner who can report not even a hint of the trigger coming out of adjustment EVER. I laugh every time I hear someone try to justify not spending the cash for the KAC trigger because it might fail if "the shit hit the fan." I feel 100% confident the KAC trigger is impossible to cause a malfuntion EVEN IF IT DID COME OUT OF ADJUSTMENT and I will never need to adjust it again for the rest of my life. I can worry about replacing barrels that were burned out from thousnads of rounds and the ban of all military style weapons before I would be concerned with the KAC trigger failing or coming out of adjustment.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 10:02:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 10:04:39 PM EST by Humminbird]
I have an RRA 2-stage and KAC 2-stage. Of these two, KAC is clearly superior. Can't compare to the LMT since I don't have one, but below is my comparison of a 100 dollar trigger against a 300 dollar trigger. Take it for what it's worth.

With the KAC you can switch between 3.5 pound and 4.5 pound second stage weight by changing the springs. With the RRA you play with what you have, so you'll just have to get used to it. After you figure out the KAC adjustments, you can eliminate virtually all creep, with the RRA all you can do is lubricate. I'm not saying the RRA has a lot of creep, but it is there. The KAC adjustments screws will not loosen very easily but if you feel uncertain you can always use Locktite after you get the trigger adjusted the way you like it.

I don't feel that the KAC is at all over-priced, even though there is a 200 dollar price difference. That difference can be felt with each shot. The difference doesn't probably matter much if you're not serious about accuracy and mainly use your AR for carbine classes and such. Depends on your application, but for an SPR or similar setup I would choose the KAC over RRA every time. For other applications the RRA offers a good trigger at a very reasonable price.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:05:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:17:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 2:17:54 PM EST by Gewehreinz]
I've also used both the KAC and the John Holliger tuned RRA.

The RRA is a pretty good trigger; far superior to the stock trigger. Nevertheless, it does feel somewhat mushy.

The KAC is an outstanding trigger- almost as good as the best trigger I've felt, the one on my Schmidt-Rubin K31 Carbine*. I can't really say though that it's $200 better. I got mine for $150 shipped, and would not pay $300 for it. What is your use? For plinking and range work, or even for NRA highpower, the White Oak tuned RRA will serve you well. For the ultimate, or for those going in harms way or need something guaranteed to work 100% in the harshest conditions, the KAC probably would be better.


*I say almost because I can't imagine a semiauto trigger can ever be 100% as good as a bolt gun trigger (but then, I haven't felt the trigger on the SIG 550, which should be as good if not better than the Schmidt Rubin's). BTW, if you want a cheap and seriously accurate military issue piece, a nice condition K31 (be sure you can touch and dry fire it first) is well recommended.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:25:59 AM EST
A sig 550 trigger is not as good as a KAC 2 stage.

C4iGrant,

Can you give any details on how the KAC trigger "broke?" Id love to hear what happened to it. Was it a full auto or semi auto trigger?

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 9:21:24 PM EST
I'm the one who emailed C4iGrant about the KAC trigger. It was their semi-auto 2-stage, and I don't think it actually "broke"--it just worked itself into one long, extremely light single-stage after less than 200 rounds.

It was really disappointing, because it had installed quickly and easily as promised, and was perfectly adjusted right from the factory. In both dry-firing, and initial test-firing (about 30 rounds), it was spectacular--easily the best trigger I had ever used. But just 4 or 5 mags later, the second stage had disappeared entirely.

I'm hoping the problem is something simple--perhaps a little adjustment and some loctite will fix it. The instructions that came with it are nowhere to be found, so I'm going to check with KAC before trying any adjustments myself.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 10:04:02 PM EST
I hate the SIG triggers...

We use the KAC triggers in our C7CT (SPR type rifle) - outfricking standing.

I have some (4) KAC triggers in my own personal guns and can't say a bad thing about them. I yanked out the Armalite Match Trigger in my AR10 and replaced it with the KAC and it greatly improved my shooting (there was that much difference)
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:59:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By 7DC:
I'm the one who emailed C4iGrant about the KAC trigger. It was their semi-auto 2-stage, and I don't think it actually "broke"--it just worked itself into one long, extremely light single-stage after less than 200 rounds.

It was really disappointing, because it had installed quickly and easily as promised, and was perfectly adjusted right from the factory. In both dry-firing, and initial test-firing (about 30 rounds), it was spectacular--easily the best trigger I had ever used. But just 4 or 5 mags later, the second stage had disappeared entirely.

I'm hoping the problem is something simple--perhaps a little adjustment and some loctite will fix it. The instructions that came with it are nowhere to be found, so I'm going to check with KAC before trying any adjustments myself.



you may try to use some kns pins to prevent change in your trigger system
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:30:17 AM EST
Comments on our (KAC) 2-Stage Trigger Mechanism.

Firstly, they can (and do) move out of adjustment. This is apparently the result of the Locktite giving up over time, solvents, operator trying to re-ajust and not re-Locktiting, moon-phases, extremely high tides, etc.

You got to remmeber that the two "hook" screws in the newest version are realy small, and consequently don't have a lot of surface area for the Locktite...so if its not done correctly, cleanly, de-greased, proper cure time, etc., it might give up. We have even taken to using epoxy to fill-in the 1/16" allen wrench holes so operators will not try to apply small adjustments. However, when they are done right (like the way Mark and Jeff does them here at the factory), they seem to be bullet proof.
For example, the other day a Sniper from Iraq was on the phone telling me his trigger had moved out of adjustment and needed me to talk him through re-adjustment. So I grabbed the nearest rifle from my office gun safe, opened up the lower and tried to rotate the set screws. Well with all my might all the while twisting the hell out of my aller wrench, I could not get the first screw to turn. So I reache dover for another rifle, but same story. I went through all seven in my safe and still did not find one screw that I could loosen. Well get this, I went back to the first lower I had tried and tightened one screw and it moved (a little). So I played with this for a minute and it finally lossened (all the time this Soldier in Iraq thinking I am some sort of uncooordinated jerk).
So I finally got one of the seven to give up and talked him through re-adjustment and he accomplished what he needed done, but he had no way to clean or re-locktite.
What I find interesting about most (99%) custmoers who I speak to in similar circumstances is that when the triger losses its adjustment, its always in the clockwise (tightening) direction of the right-side screw. This results in loss of the first stage and a "hair trigger" or one that "doubles."
Whereas if this screw loosens (counter-clockwise) a whole bunch, the hammer will not be released from its cocked position by pulling the trigger. So my conclusion is that some operators are tying to get the trigger pull "just a little lighter" by turning the screw tigher, and this is breaking the Locktite.
I have also seen (and replaced free of charge) one or two broken hammers or hooks that apparently "missed" their heat treatment step, or were over-done.
My best advice if you want one of these triggers is seek out profession and experienced installation, like from Wes Grant at MSTN. They have done this correctly hundreds of times.
Unfortunately, I can't offer this servive from the factory at this time due to the pace of Military/Government production requirements. We are just not set up for custom work on non-Stoner Rifles or individual rifle modifications. Even the turn-around time for warranty repairs is excessive and unsatisfactory, because its like sending your new Ford F-150 back to the Assembly Like in Detroit for a tune-up.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:38:50 PM EST
thanks coldblue! Very informative....
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