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Posted: 6/10/2003 10:02:31 AM EDT
This started over a month ago, closer to two months. I bought some mags off of Ebay that were sold to me as Preban. Turns out, all 40 of them are post ban, with dates in year 2000.

I called the guy up (claims he's a dealer), and he basically told me to go kiss my ass. The next call I made was to the ATF. Several weeks later, they finally get back to me today.

In our conversation, he told me to just hang onto the mags until he can "research the issue further". He also told me not to worry about them storming my house down.

What was also weird, was they seemed to know a whole lot about me. Including my address (I gave them a PO box), and names of a couple family members. I don't know if that was by accident, or not.

Anyways, the big deal with these mags is that there are no LEO/Export/Miliary markings on these mags, only date stamps.

He also told me that the Sept 13th ban of 1994 DID NOT GO INTO EFFECT UNTIL JULY 5TH 1995. Making any magazine with a date stamp/LEO marking made on or before 7/5/95 is perfectly legal for civilains to own.

I asked him kindly if he could fax me some documentation proving this. The ATF agent agreed and said he would call me back when he has the papers together.


It doesnt look like anything is going to happen to the guy who ripped me off though...

Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:14:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ComputerGuy: [b]He also told me that the Sept 13th ban of 1994 DID NOT GO INTO EFFECT UNTIL JULY 5TH 1995.[/b] Making any magazine with a date stamp/LEO marking made on or before 7/5/95 is perfectly legal for civilains to own.
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... Was he specific to magazines only?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:16:12 AM EDT
They probably investigated you a lil too. since you were part of the case. jeeze a phone # on google can get most peoples address. I figure they can find out anything about you they want. they are the governemnt.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:21:49 AM EDT
Posting to keep track of this thread. I would also like to know if the 1995 date pertains to everything. Might be looking for a post ban lower made pre July 1995.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:23:48 AM EDT
He said all firearms and high capacity feeding devices. If he doesnt call me back in the next few hours, I'll call him again and ask for the fax. I'll keep you all posted! Cody @ Magazine Specialties
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:27:44 AM EDT
He said all firearms and high capacity feeding devices.
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I'm still going to be very skeptical. Otherwise, we wouldn't have to wait 9 years 8 mos to find out that 7/95 is the magical number.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:28:23 AM EDT
BATFE has all of your records and you think it is by accident? you believe what a field agent says and think that their written word is a good defense? you called them to help you when you got screwed in a deal? you expect that they wont raid your home because they "told you so"? you even think he will call you back? [b]sucker.[/b]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:29:21 AM EDT
Very interesting.... You have a scanner? When he sends you the letter you scan that baby in to this site......[bounce] Might be a good day for us in the interim of the sunset.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:39:32 AM EDT
um, yea i need to watch this unfold.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:41:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mzzlebrk: Posting
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yeah
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:52:34 AM EDT
IBTR (In Before The Raid)
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:55:57 AM EDT
marking.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:19:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:22:06 AM EDT
blinko
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:49:40 AM EDT
shhh... Big Brother is watching...
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:55:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By steenkybastage: IBTR (In Before The Raid)
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me too.[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:58:58 AM EDT
Did they come to your house yet?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:02:25 PM EDT
IBTWSITF) (In Before The Wife Shot In The Face)
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:03:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sixgun357: Did they come to your house yet?
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Well?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:03:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sixgun357: Did they come to your house yet?
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Not yet, but the mags are disaseembled as for replacement parts at the moment. :-) I did have some officers give me a late night visit about some PREBAN mags before. That didn't go over well, believe me.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:04:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: ComputerGuy, This is what you get for believing anything an agent says over the phone. Just like when you ask folks here, when you call ATF, you get a different response every time... Here's the rest of the story: The law covering AWs and hi-cap mags went into effect on 9/13/94. However, the specific regulations that specify what the markings need to be for both guns and mags was not finalized until July 95. So, while it IS true that "Restricted..." warnings weren't required until 7/95, the ban itself was still in effect since 9/94, and mags made from 10/94 on are still restricted. -Troy
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If it wasnt finalized until 95, then why don't my 6/2000 mags here have any leo markings on them?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:15:16 PM EDT
In to mark for later reading. Suddenly, a lot of post-bans are actually pre-ban? Most interesting! CJ
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:26:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ComputerGuy:
Originally Posted By Sixgun357: Did they come to your house yet?
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Not yet, but the mags are disaseembled as for replacement parts at the moment. :-) I did have some officers give me a late night visit about some PREBAN mags before. That didn't go over well, believe me.
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Tell me about this visit I am courious.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:52:39 PM EDT
mags for export to other countries are not required to be marked restricted.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:53:12 PM EDT
and yes, do tell of this mysterious visit!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:25:28 PM EDT
Has Ebay sent agents to your house yet? They make JBTs look like girl scouts.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 2:56:57 PM EDT
so..... are there a lot of preban guns made before JULY 5TH 1995 floating arround at cheap postban price?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:09:33 PM EDT
Ok. I'm going to weigh in with some considered advice here. 1. Whatever the agent told you on the phone doesn't matter. He has no authority to alter the law or grant you special permission. So if he told you that you were complying with the law when you weren't you still go to jail. 2. Magazines marked 9/94 are postban and illegal for civilians to possess. 3. Get rid of the magazines. Immediately. Even if it's at a total loss. Every second you keep them in your house you are committing a felony. You are risking prison as well as your gun ownership privileges for life. You should have gotten rid of them as soon as you realized they were postban. 4. Pursue the guy through normal ebay channels to try and get a refund. 5. You are a complete ass if you did indeed call the ATF as you claimed. The ATF is not your friend. They will be happy to prosecute you for what you seem to think is a temporary lawful possession but to them is 10 years in jail and $100,000 in fines. You should not involve law enforcement agencies in your problems when you are breaking the law. (Officer, I was just mugged of my drugs!) It would be a different story if you had destroyed the magazines (e.g., crushed or burned) and were showing non-functional magazines to the ATF. 6. I strongly suspect a possible [:k] post here.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:12:15 PM EDT
I saw a thread about the ATF and ComputerGuy as the original poster, and I thought "oh crap, did he get a no-knock or something? I hope he's gonna be okay." then I read the post, and it seems everything's gonna be alright. hooah. btw, since you're a magazine dealer, isn't it okay for you to have LEO mags, so long as they're intended for sale to LEOs?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:17:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:18:12 PM EDT
Very interesting thread, I do not think I would ever call the feds. [peep]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:53:23 PM EDT
If they're not marked "for law enforcement/govt use or export only" how can they be illegal? Date stamps mean crap! CRC
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:04:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:19:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By ComputerGuy: If it wasnt finalized until 95, then why don't my 6/2000 mags here have any leo markings on them?
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Because they were manufactured by Center Industries, who failed to comply with the labeling requirements until 2001.
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Troy, I heard a rumor that any mag not marked for LEO/mil use only could be considered pre-ban (despite any date marked), because the law specifically dictates that all post-ban mags must contain such markings. That sounds a little fishy, but I thought I'd ask you because you seem to know quite a bit about this. ComputerGuy, I'd be very interested in hearing about your late night visit over some mags...
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:19:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:22:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ComputerGuy: The next call I made was to the ATF.
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It [b]sickens[/b] me that you would call the FUCKING ATF! Granted you got fucked, but that is a spineless fucking rat bastard thing to do, Even if the guy that screwed you was a prick! I would surely never do business with anyone who rats to the ATF!!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:29:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By CRC: If they're not marked "for law enforcement/govt use or export only" how can they be illegal? Date stamps mean crap! CRC
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I hope you don't really believe that... -Troy
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Most people believe that to be post ban it has to be marked "leo/govt" only otherwise it's 100% legal. CRC
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:34:02 PM EDT
Why don't you warn us about the POS that sold these to you???? Please do. TXL
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:34:55 PM EDT
Contrived!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:39:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm:
Originally Posted By ComputerGuy: The next call I made was to the ATF.
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It [b]sickens[/b] me that you would call the FUCKING ATF! Granted you got fucked, but that is a spineless fucking rat bastard thing to do, Even if the guy that screwed you was a prick!
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Oh, yeah, I was going to say something about that, too. (Maybe not quite as bluntly...) Going to the ATF seems like a bad idea. Always. 1) It draws attention to yourself. 2) It could draw attention to other customers of the guy who screwed you over. Nobody needs that. 3) It validates the ATF and their enforcement of BS laws. 4) Men settle things like men. You took a financial hit. Either settle up with the guy face to face or forget about it.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:39:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm: It [b]sickens[/b] me that you would call the FUCKING ATF! Granted you got fucked, but that is a spineless fucking rat bastard thing to do, Even if the guy that screwed you was a prick! I would surely never do business with anyone who rats to the ATF!!
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The way I read it was he called to ask about the "preban mags" dated 2000, not being LEO marked. Not specificly to "rat" on this guy that sold him obviously contraban materials unbeknownst to him, and thus getting a free ticket to club fed.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:37:03 PM EDT
Not yet, but the mags are disaseembled as for replacement parts at the moment. :-)
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Does not matter if assembled or not. Get rid of them. [img]http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:38:42 PM EDT
Strip the internals out of the mags for parts,crush the bodies and sell them to the alum. recycler.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:10:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: You're kidding, right?
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no, I"m not. if you're not LEO, how do you sell to LEO without being in possession of them? because I know you can buy LEO mags at gunshops and at some shows if you're LEO, but the seller is not. how do they get away with it? is it just that they didn't get caught by the atf? or do they have to have a special license to sell to LEO? what separates them from "regular" civilians?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:19:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 6:20:11 PM EDT by Lazyshooter]
Please let us know this dealer's ebay user id, because even if these were cheap, I don't think you're going to be dealing with him/her again.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:22:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By voilsb:
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: You're kidding, right?
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no, I"m not. if you're not LEO, how do you sell to LEO without being in possession of them? because I know you can buy LEO mags at gunshops and at some shows if you're LEO, but the seller is not. how do they get away with it? is it just that they didn't get caught by the atf? or do they have to have a special license to sell to LEO? what separates them from "regular" civilians?
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An FFL.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:28:44 PM EDT
Damn, isn't it sad to see law bidding Americans turn into criminals just for exercising their rights and freedoms.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:36:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: An FFL.
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any FFL, mostly any (C&R don't count), or SOT FFLs and similar "non-regular-type" FFLs?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:53:47 PM EDT
Chiming in! That you called the ATF about this clown sending you LEO marked mags is a GOOD thing! Any asshole whose conduct puts YOU in jeopardy with the law by his own callous disregard for it SHOULD be punished, and don't let anyone tell you differently! Some people may believe differently, but I know quite well that most of the agents working for the BATF (now BATFE) are on the side of any citizen who has a desire to abide by the law, and won't give you a problem about it if someone else violates the law and in doing so, puts YOU in violation against your wishes. It comes down to intent. Believe it or not, the ATF should be considered to be our friends in many respects. As for the mag marking issue, by the WRITTEN LETTER OF THE LAW, the most straightforward, unimaginitive interpretation is that a mag isn't illegal to own unless it has the LEO stamping on it, REGARDLESS of any date code stamping! The law as written doesn't say it any other way. This position is consistent with the precise written letter of the law, which is the only thing that an honest judge can concern himself with. CJ
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:46:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 7:47:02 PM EDT by GIDDS-45]
I'm tired and want to goto bed. Since everyone is speaking of magazine legalities (sp?) -- I am working on a 9mm AR.......I am fond of 25 rd IMI Uzi mags......I got one with my RRA mag block recently and picked up another two on line thru gunbroker or ebay (can't remember)....They are used, stamped with count marks, the #20 on the body above the floor plate and have the star of david on them..My RRA will be a registered SBR and all post ban....can someone tell me 1) can I own these? 2) can I buy more? This post is also to mark thread. thanks to all 1) can I own these
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:57:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CRC:
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By CRC: If they're not marked "for law enforcement/govt use or export only" how can they be illegal? Date stamps mean crap! CRC
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I hope you don't really believe that... -Troy
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Most people believe that to be post ban it has to be marked "leo/govt" only otherwise it's 100% legal. CRC
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Would you care to expound on this beyond what you've posted? I don't know who's right on this, but if there's some law out there that says it has to say "LEO/Govt only" to be illegal, I'd like to see it. I've got some post-ban mags that my LEO brother-in-law is holding on to that I'd love to see back in my possession prior to 9/04.
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