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Posted: 9/8/2009 2:42:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 3:09:06 PM EST by JohnGA]
Been on the waiting list for one - finally came in and once again a company changes a product significantly to a cheaper process (forged vs. billet), charges the same price, never updates pictures on their website nor sends updated pictures to dealers.

So they expect customers to accept the deception?
Opps - looks forged on one side and billet on the other. Guess I was an ignoramus.

oh - I feel better. Never mind

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 2:49:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By JohnGA:
Been on the waiting list for one - finally came in and once again a company changes a product significantly to a cheaper process (forged vs. billet), charges the same price, never updates pictures on their website nor sends updated pictures to dealers.

So they expect customers to accept the deception?

oh - I feel better. Never mind



How different do the forged ones look? Pics?
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:10:32 PM EST
The billet units have a flat surface behind the shell deflector that the bolt assist sits in. The new forged units have an angled cut added to that same space. According to multiple threads around these forums forged is actually stronger than billet. Supposedly the new Vltor forged units are stronger than Vltor's billet units, and completely true unlike some other manufacturer's forged uppers. Vltor apparently spent large sums of money and time in order to make this change, and according to them it is an upgrade. All that being said I am more than happy with my Noveske marked Vltor forged upper receiver.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 12:42:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 12:43:31 AM EST by 87GN]
I would not say it is cheaper. I don't exactly have their balance sheets, but I know significant expense went in to ensuring that the forged uppers were as dimensionally accurate as the extruded (not billet) uppers. Including processes that significantly increased the manufacturing cost per receiver.

The change was due to several things, by the way, one of the biggest being talk on the internet that forgings were better.

Damn those companies that listen to customer needs/wants...
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 1:10:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 2:24:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 2:35:14 AM EST by US_Autoweapons]
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 9:02:21 AM EST
So then forged is considered to be better quality and stiffer than billet?


Aren't the tolerances much tighter in a cnc'd billet lower and/or upper as opposed to the forged?
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 10:05:47 AM EST
Vltor takes forgings and CNCs them from there. Among other things.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 10:11:42 AM EST
Send it to me, lol. I love 'em.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 12:03:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By SepsiS13:
So then forged is considered to be better quality and stiffer than billet?


Aren't the tolerances much tighter in a cnc'd billet lower and/or upper as opposed to the forged?


That depends on the billet.
A billet can be drop forged or it can be a raw casting.
Most people aren't aware that even forged components start out as castings.

A casting that has been drop forged into a billet, then reheated at a later date and reforged into the basic shape of the end product is known as double drop forged.
A billet that has been machined into the end use item requires many more machine hours than an end use item that has been machined from a basic shape.

Tolerences are incorporated into the mechanical drawings and the blueprinting so the tolerences of a machined billet may, or may not, be tighter than the tolerences of a machined forging, that all depends on the specifications set down in the blueprinting.

In theory and practice, the dimensions of a fully machined billet COULD be set tighter than the dimensions on a drop forged basic shape in some areas because you are cutting all areas to shape instead of relying on hammering many or most the dimensions to shape.
What this means is cleaner, machined lines which may, or in most cases will not, affect the performance of the end use part.

Double drop forging is a preferred method because the structure of the material is much more uniform that what would be found in a simple cast billet and this means much less chance of warping or stressing during the heat treating of the basic part.
Parts made from plain cast heat treated billets that are then machined usually need to be reheat treated to relax the material after machining to avoid stress warping.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 12:47:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 12:48:36 PM EST by valheru21]
Originally Posted By SepsiS13:
So then forged is considered to be better quality and stiffer than billet?


Aren't the tolerances much tighter in a cnc'd billet lower and/or upper as opposed to the forged?


A forged upper before it is machined is just a funny-looking forged billet that has the grains going the right way. Forged is the way to go. Don't buy into the hype.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:51:27 AM EST
So what you're saying is that I shouldn't go for the black Rain Ordnance upper and lower set?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:38:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 10:41:46 AM EST by WhiteBuffalo]
It's a good upper that performs the same either way, so you shouldn't give it a second thought. I'm betting that VLTOR stopped with the billet not so much because there was any advantage either way, but because the forum warriors demanded it. Same reason he started selling the MUR as just the reciever, rather than as a part of his monolithic rail system only.... the forum warriors demanded it.


Originally Posted By SepsiS13:
So what you're saying is that I shouldn't go for the black Rain Ordnance upper and lower set?


If that's what you want, go for it. You'll likely not notice much, if any, difference either way. Don't let the guys who think too much, but know too little, make that call for you.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:10:28 AM EST
Yea, I was going to get it either way. I was just looking for opinions on it. The cost is kind of high, but the parts look like they are top notch and the finish looks awesome and so I will gladly pay. Plus the bio-hazard logo looks cool lol.

My other considerations are the Mega and Sun Devil lowers with the vltor upper.

Anyways, thanks man.
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