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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/7/2005 8:38:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2005 8:48:28 AM EDT by General_Custer]
TOOK MY BRAND NEW NEVER FIRED DPMS UPPER WITH 16 INCH SS BULL BARREL AND CHROME BOLT CARRIER TO THE SUMMER HOUSE FOR THE HOLLIDAY. Fired a round (wolf .223 55gr hollow point)and the next round chambeed but would not fire. Could not pull the bolt carrier assembly forward or backwards. Had to remove the barrel from the upper to remove the round. Reassembled everything and the same thing happened again. Cleaned the entire setup. Switched out the carrier assembly with my bushy and loaded a round. Couldn't move the carrier assembly. Tried brass cased ammo with the same result. Swapped out the stainless barrel and put on a bushy superlight and the upper chambered round after round. It likely was the barell.

Any thoughts. DPMS tried to blame the polymer coating for the jams. Can a single round of polymer coated ammo do this?

P.S. DPMS is taking the entire upper back even though I bought the upper from midway and the carrier and barrel seperately from them.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 8:42:18 AM EDT
My answer would be nope. Shouldn't have, and I would venture to say couldn't have, tho I ain't no expert.......

Doc
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 9:09:08 AM EDT
Was the bull barrel chambered for 5.56 nato, or for .223? That might be something to check and verify. Match .223 chambers are too tight for 5.56 ammo specifications.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 9:13:54 AM EDT
The bull barrel is very likely, almost certainly, chambered for .223. The 5.56 ammo may or may not fire in a .223 chamber. That is very likely your problem. Compound that with DPMS having a notorious reputation for excessively tight chambers and, IMO, your result was not unexpected.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 9:23:26 AM EDT
The barrel is chambered for .223 but I thought the wolf ammo is also .223 and not 5.56. Shouldn't this ammo have worked?
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:11:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2005 10:14:07 AM EDT by _DR]
My DPMS 5.56 chamber digests wolf with no issues. Would I use Wolf with a .223 match chamber?

Hell No!

Why buy a match rifle and shoot cheap ammo through it. doesn't make any sense to me.

I use Wolf ammo, but for plinking with 5.56 chambers. The 5.56 chamber has more "slop", allows for small variations that might be encountered.

Use good match ammo and it should be fine. The polymer coating has nothing to do with anything.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:16:29 AM EDT
Its not a matter of should i run wolf ammo through but could I be able to without jams.

Brass cased more expensive ammo also jammed the barrel.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:25:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
Its not a matter of should i run wolf ammo through but could I be able to without jams.

Brass cased more expensive ammo also jammed the barrel.



Was the more expensive ammo .223 match ammo like Black hills? That's what you need with a .223 chamber. Winchester .223 should also work.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:32:02 AM EDT
I have put Wolf 62 through my RRA 16 inch SS without incident. The chamber is a .223 Wylde
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:39:20 AM EDT
For plinking, I would like to be able to run wolf through the barrel.

.223 cases should fit in a .223 chamber, shouldn't they. Would one casing with a polymer coat cause a jam? The first case loads but wont eject.

I don't know the manufacturer of the brass cased ammo as it was my cousins and he exchanged magazines with me to test out the problem.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:42:37 AM EDT
The .223 wylde chamber is a compromise between the .223 SAMMI spec and the 5.56 chamber
it should fire both 5.56 and .223
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 10:48:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
For plinking, I would like to be able to run wolf through the barrel.

.223 cases should fit in a .223 chamber, shouldn't they. Would one casing with a polymer coat cause a jam? The first case loads but wont eject.

I don't know the manufacturer of the brass cased ammo as it was my cousins and he exchanged magazines with me to test out the problem.



Your dealing with a tight match chamber. Alas no plinking with cheap ammo for you. your barrel was designed only for .223 ammo and good stuff at that. If you want something that will do both the wylde chamber would be a good compromise.

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 11:22:38 AM EDT
I had the bull barrel with the match chamber and it would cycle anything but match ammo
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 11:45:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mrrogers1:
I have put Wolf 62 through my RRA 16 inch SS without incident. The chamber is a .223 Wylde



The Wylde is designed to shoot both, that's why you don't have problems.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 3:34:09 PM EDT
The only difference between 5.56 Nato and .223 is the pressure that the round is loaded to. Both rounds should have the same dimensions.
Now, It sounds to me that you have a chamber problem. Whether your rifle likes Wolf or not is irrelevant. You tried several types of rounds, it SHOULD have chambered them all.

IMO, Send it back, make them fix what's wrong.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 4:32:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:
The only difference between 5.56 Nato and .223 is the pressure that the round is loaded to. Both rounds should have the same dimensions.
Now, It sounds to me that you have a chamber problem. Whether your rifle likes Wolf or not is irrelevant. You tried several types of rounds, it SHOULD have chambered them all.

IMO, Send it back, make them fix what's wrong.



It's the chamber that is different. The leade on a 5.56mm chamber is longer. A saami chamber is much tighter, resulting in better accuracy, but less tolerance in ammo spec and pressures. a good understanding of this can save you much frustration.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 6:47:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 2:40:14 AM EDT by General_Custer]
Shouldn't the SAAMI chamber accept .223 Wolf ammo. The wolf ammo is not 5.56 but rather .223. Is the steel + polymer wolf case larger than a brass .223 case?

Thanks ahead of time.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 4:17:49 AM EDT
By the way what does SAAMI stand for?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 4:44:47 AM EDT
maybe with all this swapping of barrels you twisted/crushed the upper reciever causing the bolt carrier to bind against the upper.



when hand cycling the first round the carrier has more force behind it and it closes all the way and with the weak wolf ammo there isnt enough force to drive it home.


since you cant fire the second round but can the first mybe the bolt is not all the way home.



when you take the barrel off does the round just fall out?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 5:02:32 AM EDT
Nothing appeared crushed.

I couldnt hand chamber more than one round after i cleaned the whole setup. The first round would load from the mag but i could not extract it from the chamber with the charge handle. I had to remove the barrel and the bullet would fly loose.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 6:22:56 AM EDT
so your bolt is locking in the barrel extension?


you cannot retract the bolt but with the barrel removed you can spin/retract the bolt?


Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:12:29 AM EDT
SAAMI stands for "Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute" I believe. An industry organization that adopts industry standards.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:16:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
TOOK MY BRAND NEW NEVER FIRED DPMS UPPER WITH 16 INCH SS BULL BARREL AND CHROME BOLT CARRIER TO THE SUMMER HOUSE FOR THE HOLLIDAY. Fired a round (wolf .223 55gr hollow point)and the next round chambeed but would not fire. Could not pull the bolt carrier assembly forward or backwards. Had to remove the barrel from the upper to remove the round. Reassembled everything and the same thing happened again. Cleaned the entire setup. Switched out the carrier assembly with my bushy and loaded a round. Couldn't move the carrier assembly. Tried brass cased ammo with the same result. Swapped out the stainless barrel and put on a bushy superlight and the upper chambered round after round. It likely was the barell.

Any thoughts. DPMS tried to blame the polymer coating for the jams. Can a single round of polymer coated ammo do this?

P.S. DPMS is taking the entire upper back even though I bought the upper from midway and the carrier and barrel seperately from them.



Did the first case eject intact? Was any part of the case torn/ripped off staying inside the chamber? Check the chamber for any obstructions in the chamber.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:24:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 7:25:17 AM EDT by General_Custer]

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
"so your bolt is locking in the barrel extension?"

->Yes

"you cannot retract the bolt but with the barrel removed you can spin/retract the bolt?"

->Yes





The first case ejected intact. The barrel appears perfect to the naked eye
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:31:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
"so your bolt is locking in the barrel extension?"

->Yes

"you cannot retract the bolt but with the barrel removed you can spin/retract the bolt?"

->Yes





The first case ejected intact. The barrel appears perfect to the naked eye



I'm not talking about the outside of the barrel. Remove the barrel from the upper receiver and shine a bright light into the chamber (not the barrel extension) to see if there's anything that's preventing a new round from being inserted/removed normally. If I drop a cartridge into my chamber (manually just dropping it relying 9.8 m/s^2) it will be rather tough to pull out manually unless it is extracted or pulled out. If you're saying once a new cartidge is chambered, it will be impossible to extract using the CH/bolt ? That suggests the chamber is somehow deformed or there is a foreign object in there. Check the headspacing while you're at it.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 9:22:53 AM EDT
The insider of the barrel appeared smooth and without any imperfections.

The upper, carrier and bull barrel are on their way to DPMS now.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 9:29:39 AM EDT
That's why I love my Wylde chamber.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 10:00:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 10:04:04 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
The insider of the barrel appeared smooth and without any imperfections.

The upper, carrier and bull barrel are on their way to DPMS now.



When you say the inside of the barrel, are you talking about the bore (near the muzzle) or the chamber and everything? I'm just curious as to why you could fire the first cartridge and then not another cartridge. I'm wondering if a tiny ring of the steel case broke off and fire formed into the shoulder area of the chamber preventing the chambering of the next cartridge. I know you said the case was intact, but sometimes you miss something at the range... unless you kept the case and brought it home with you.

I've heard the DPMS chambers (.223?) can be very tight, along with the Wylde Chambers. That's why I like my 5.56 NATO chamber. I'll gladly sacrifice that 1 MOA so I can feed any .223/5.56 cartridge.

Good luck and keep us posted. I'm sure DPMS is going to blame the evil dirty Wolf ammo. More please!

ETA: After reading your first post over again, it sounds like something was gripping the case way too tightly (foreign object jammed in the chamber). Did the cases show any weird markings when you finally got them out of the chamber? That could give you a sign as to why they weren't chamberng properly.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 12:39:25 PM EDT
All of the subsequent cases that I chambered and removed by taking the barrel off showed marking along the bullet head itself along the long axis of the head and similar markings along the length of the case. DPMS said its the polymer when I spoke to them on the phone prior to sending everything back. I did clean out the chamber well and then had the same problem with brass rounds.

I may have them exchange the barrel for a HBAR 16inch (5.56 chamber!) with a muzzle brake if they can't do anything.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:21:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
All of the subsequent cases that I chambered and removed by taking the barrel off showed marking along the bullet head itself along the long axis of the head and similar markings along the length of the case. DPMS said its the polymer when I spoke to them on the phone prior to sending everything back. I did clean out the chamber well and then had the same problem with brass rounds.

I may have them exchange the barrel for a HBAR 16inch (5.56 chamber!) with a muzzle brake if they can't do anything.



I've shot over 2000+ polymer cased Wolf ammo in a 7.62x39 chrome lined barrel. It's not the polymer. The worst the polymer can do is make the chamber look a bit red.

Can you take some pics of the bullets that you extracted?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:53:57 PM EDT
Check the head spacing. Something wrong if it won't shoot brass or wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 2:58:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:
The only difference between 5.56 Nato and .223 is the pressure that the round is loaded to. Both rounds should have the same dimensions.
Now, It sounds to me that you have a chamber problem. Whether your rifle likes Wolf or not is irrelevant. You tried several types of rounds, it SHOULD have chambered them all.

IMO, Send it back, make them fix what's wrong.



It's the chamber that is different. The leade on a 5.56mm chamber is longer. A saami chamber is much tighter, resulting in better accuracy, but less tolerance in ammo spec and pressures. a good understanding of this can save you much frustration.



Yes, the chamber is different, but the bullets are the same!! That's my point. You're rifle doesn't know if you slap a Radway Green SS109, or an American Eagle .223 in it. Both rounds "should" have the same outer demensions. If it will not chamber either of them, the something is wrong with the rifle.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 8:40:32 PM EDT
Hopefully DPMS can either fix the chamber or replace the barrel with one that doesn't jam.

Unfortunately I didn't keep any of the casing to photograph.

I'll have more info from DPMS next week.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 5:45:17 AM EDT
Update.

DPMS has my setup and they states that they will correct the size of the chamber. The customer sales associate says that he will even bring in some of his own wolf ammo to ensure that the chamber is large enough to accept the steel casing.

I'll let you guys know as I find out for those interested.

Thanks for all the help.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 5:50:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
Update.

DPMS has my setup and they states that they will correct the size of the chamber. The customer sales associate says that he will even bring in some of his own wolf ammo to ensure that the chamber is large enough to accept the steel casing.

I'll let you guys know as I find out for those interested.

Thanks for all the help.



So the chamber was incorrectly sized from the start? How did you fire the first Wolf cartridge? the steel casing would be the "same" size as standard .223 remington cases. If the chamber could not accept the steel cases, then it wasn't sized properly in the first place (improper headspacing?) Keep us posted!
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 9:27:17 AM EDT
This is the message i got from DPMS:


we have gotten your upper reassembled, head spaced and have test fired it with both surplus and .223 ammo. We did not have any problems with extraction or feeding.
I will be shipping this back to you today.
If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to contact myself.

They told me on the phone that the headspacing needed adjustment and the gas tube needed to be "lubed."?

They said is rana nd fired whatever ammo they tried. Should have it back for the weekend. We'll see. I have 900 round of 55gr wolf hollow points to try.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 9:39:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2005 9:39:33 AM EDT by metroplex]
The gas tube lubing isn't mandatory but I always put a drop of lubricant around the "mushroom".
It looks like the headspacing was originally out of spec and they had to ream the chamber? This is definitely a QC issue and not a result of you using Wolf. I'm looking forward to hearing your after action report this weekend if you get a chance to shoot it.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 10:10:37 AM EDT
He didn't say that they had to ream the chamber when i asked him.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 10:20:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2005 12:16:49 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
This is the message i got from DPMS:

They told me on the phone that the headspacing needed adjustment and the gas tube needed to be "lubed."?




How do you adjust headspace on an AR15 other than machining the chamber, or changing out the barrel and/or bolt? There are NO adjustable parts.

smells like
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 11:49:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By General_Custer:
He didn't say that they had to ream the chamber when i asked him.



Remachining the chamber would be the only way I can see to adjust the headspacing. Check to see if its your barrel that they return. Something so mismatched like this should not have left a reputable dealer/vendor. I know Bushmaster checks the headspacing on their barrels (or so they claim...)
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 5:24:31 PM EDT
Got my package from DPMS today after fighting with UPS on Friday (thats another story). Reassembled it onto my RRA lower. Placed an aluminum mag with 10 rounds and was able to cycle manually through the 10 rounds of wolf .223. Haven't been able to get to the range as the damn package didn't come on Friday when the 2nd day air should of had it delivered.

Was not able to manually load any rounds prior to sending the upper back to DPMS.

Will update after firing off some rounds hopefully this weekend.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 3:53:48 AM EDT
I forgot that you CAN adjust headspace w/o using a reamer... It involves adjusting the barrel extension to get the right headspacing.

Have you tried firing Wolf through the rifle? Does it cycle properly?
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 7:24:51 AM EDT
Haven't been able to get to the range yet. The local one is closed and will try to go over to the next county this weekend.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 7:34:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I forgot that you CAN adjust headspace w/o using a reamer... It involves adjusting the barrel extension to get the right headspacing.



Please expain how you do this???? I really want to hear this!!!!
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 8:06:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I forgot that you CAN adjust headspace w/o using a reamer... It involves adjusting the barrel extension to get the right headspacing.



Please expain how you do this???? I really want to hear this!!!!



I read it on the MD AR-15 site IIRC. It said if the chamber wasn't chrome-lined, you could use a reamer. If it was chrome-lined, you can adjust the headspace via the barrel extension. I have no personal experience with this, just conveying what I read. But I can't access the MD Ar-15 site from this PC to get the link.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 8:12:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2005 8:13:12 AM EDT by mongo001]

Note by Forest: You can ream a chamber of a 4140 or stainless barrel to 'adjust' headspacing. But only on NON-Chrome lined barrels. Chrome lined barrels can have their headspacing adjusted at the factory (requires tweaking the barrel extension). Not a job for an individual or gunsmith. If your new barrel doesn't headspace with your bolt, then send the barrel back!




Here's the quote. It doesn't sound right or logical to me. That statement doesn't jive with the barrel manufacturing process, as I understand it. Once the barrel is chromed, there is very little recourse in adjusting the headspace. "Tweaking" a barrel extension sound like a very bad idea to me. I'm not even sure where I would start.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:30:51 PM EDT
Update!

Finally got to fire the fixed reassembled upper and it functioned flawlessly. Ran about 40 rounds of wolf .223 hollow points through it and not a single jam. Love the new Aimpoint Compl ML3 with 2MOA dot I purchased for it.

Gotta hand it to DPMS. They quickly turned around my upper even though I bought the bolt and barrel at sepearate times and the stripped upper from Midway USA.

Thanks for everyone's input!
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:47:56 PM EDT
I thought barrel extensions were pressure fit on the barrel so with the right tool I gather the extension can be removed as headspace is set at the factory.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 6:27:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By model927:
I thought barrel extensions were pressure fit on the barrel so with the right tool I gather the extension can be removed as headspace is set at the factory.



I think they're actually threaded and pinned.

WIZZO

BTW, good to hear that they fixed it right for you.
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