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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/21/2003 9:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2003 9:49:13 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Here are a couple pictures of my current AR-15 setup for 3Gun. Main optic is a TA11 on an ARMS #19S. On the float tube at 2:30 o'clock, I have mounted the JP Enterprises SRTS (Short-range tactical sight). It's like having a set of pistol sights up there, and is good out to about 30 yards. It is really fast at 0-10 yards.

The point of having a SRTS instead of a JPoint or Doctor as short-range sight is that it's still legal for Modified class in 3Gun.


More pictures here:

Link Posted: 9/23/2003 7:35:45 PM EDT
That's interesting. Never seen or heard of it. What's the scoop on the tube over your TA11, was it too bright?
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 7:42:52 PM EDT
I found that a very bright donut appears larger than a "dim" one. Using this bicycle-tube-prophylactic device, I can tune how bright the reticle is. For a series of long-range precision shots, I might pull the rubber to cover the entire fiber-optic pipe all the way to its end. For close stuff (150 yards or nearer), I just leave it how it appears in these pictures. In this configuration, it doesn't seem any dimmer than "normal". -z
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:01:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2003 8:05:27 PM EDT by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:14:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2004 11:05:06 AM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Well, a carefully positioned bolt sticking out of one's handguard would serve the same purpose.

Let's face it, a 3.5X power optic (even with BAC) isn't optimal at 0-15 yards. Sure, you can use it (the ACOG), but open sights give you so much more awareness.

With practice, one can hit targets with the AR by "point shooting" out to some range. I was never able to get that working very well. This solution allows head-shots at 10y no problem.

Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:19:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:21:52 PM EDT
SinistralRifleman, It's about $100 from JP, and it should mount to any "tac-rail." The rear adjusts windage with a allen bolt, and the front adjusts elevation using an A2-style post. -z
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:23:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:30:11 PM EDT
If you're up in CO sometime, you can play with the one I've got. I normally shoot 3Gun up here. BTW, the stock on that one is the CavArms C1. -z
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:25:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:34:37 PM EDT
Umm wouldnt it be faster to use the BAC? Isnt that what its for?
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:47:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2004 11:05:21 AM EDT by Zak-Smith]

I find the BAC extremely fast for getting on-target for the first target. Then when my vision naturally "zooms in" through the scope, I find it slower to transition to targets that cannot be seen "through" the scope. This is my "gut feel".

When I get some time, I plan to do an experiment in which I will compare splits while shooting at target arrays at 7, 15, and 25 yards to see which system is faster for me at which distances.

Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:51:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:57:45 AM EDT
Center the gun with your torso CQB style and pull away from the ACOG a little bit. It tightens the FOV and focuses on the donut. Made me a lot faster with my TA31 at close range. The BAC made me go crosseyed for a while.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:43:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Center the gun with your torso CQB style and pull away from the ACOG a little bit. It tightens the FOV and focuses on the donut. Made me a lot faster with my TA31 at close range. The BAC made me go crosseyed for a while.
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Agreed. I find if I lift my head and pull back a bit, the less than perfect view through the ACOG lets the BAC work much better for me. Almost like leaving the lens cap on for the OEG effect, but you just pull in tighter to get the perfect magnified view. Another advantage of the short eye relief on the TA31 [;)]
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:47:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:49:01 PM EDT
I am lost for words. as long as it works for you, then more power to you.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:23:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2004 11:05:45 AM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Lumpy196, bsbg,

I have noticed what you guys are talking about with the BAC and the "less than perfect" view.

Obviously with the TA11 I can't pull my head back for that to work as easy as a TA31. If I go slightly "under" or "over" the level of the scope, I get more of the OEG effect (and less zoom).

When I'm just sitting in the living room playing with the scope, I can consciously switch between the "OEG view" and the "magnified view" (without chaning my head position) with effort, but there's no way I can do it at-speed.

I've only tried this SRTS for one local match and I'm not sure if I'll end up using it all the time (for 3Gun) or not. Like I said before, I really need to spend a few days on the range with the rifle and a timer to work the bugs out of both techniques and figure out which is faster, for me.
When I set out a series of IPSC targets at 7 yards, spaced about 5-6' apart and double-tap each one, my target-to-target times are about 0.47s, and the double-tap time is about 0.17s... so the splits look like 0.8 (low ready to first shot) 0.17, 0.47 (to deliver first shot on second target), 0.17, 0.47, 0.17, etc...

In both cases, I just need to steer the gun faster and pull the trigger faster.

Although I haven't timed it yet, if I use the BAC (with no artificial OEG effect) at the same range, I'd guess the 0.47 increases 0.10-0.25, and the dt split times stay the same.

(Compare to the same drill with my 1911, and it's approx 0.40s target-to-target and 0.18-0.20s per double-tap.)


I'm kind of surprised at the implied criticism considering all the other crap people hang on their rifles.

Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:49:43 PM EDT
Actually Zak, it's proven very fast for me. The usual centered CQB stance for close range, switch to a bladed stance, nose to the charging handle with full FOV for long shots.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:20:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zak-Smith: SMGLee, I'm kind of surprised at the implied criticism considering all the other crap people hang on their rifles. regards Zak
View Quote
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:30:13 AM EDT
Zak, you should bring this out to the next Colorado shoot. I'll be we'd all like to see it, and or try it out.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:36:08 AM EDT
Lancelot, I can't make Oct 25th because I'm moving into my new house that weekend. I'll try to catch you guys next time. Otherwise I'm usually at the Aurora and Clear Creek 3Gun matches. -z
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:06:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:51:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2004 11:06:10 AM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Thanks for the explanation; I probably should have added more context to my original post.

I have no illusions about this being "tactical" equipment, and I readily admit I'm not trained to evaluate how "tactical" something is - I'm an electrical engineer and computer geek by trade. JP chose to call this device the "Short Range Tactical Sight" and that's their choice; I found it kind of amusing.

Being a civilian in a small city (Fort Collins, CO - 120,000), my "tactical" needs for a rifle are pretty low. All realistic problems can be solved with a handgun, so I CCW a nice BHP. If TSHTF/TEOTWAWKI/or whatever happens, I'll have enough warning to get the Benelli, an AR, or a FAL out of the closet in time.

Hanging a bunch of crap off of an AR - and mine's getting there - makes it more unwieldy. A 9lb 16" AR is way more portly than it need be. (In the case of this rifle, it's because the barrel is full "bull" behind the gas block, and it needn't be.)

If I were to set up a gun just for home-defense, it'd probably be based on a 18" 1-in-8" twist lightweight barrel, flat-top with TA11, and a comp or flash-hider. Light and simple.

But as it stands, this rifle is mainly a recreational toy, and I get a kick out of shooting 3Gun.

3Gun is kind of like informal IPSC with extra guns and more crawling in the dirt. Equipment divisions are similar. You've got Limited (irons sights all around, no compensator on shotgun or pistol), Modified (up to 4x scope on rifle ok), and Open (anything goes). Each stage requires one or more of the 3Guns. It's common to start with two "hot" guns and drop one (on "safe") along the way.

Here are my picturs from RM3G-2003 in Raton, NM:


Rifle stages run from close-in "hoser" stages with targets (full IPSC or partially obscured by hard-cover or no-shoot "hostages") at 0 - 20 yards, all the way out to long-range courses of fire out to 300-400 or so yards. The same gun must be used for all stages in a match, though you can usually ditch your bipod.

A typical close-range "hoser" stage might have 24 IPSC targets, each requiring two shots each, to be engaged as you run through the course of fire, shooting through ports, under benches, over tables, at swinging/activated targets, etc. A smokin' time might be 30 seconds for the 48 (minimum) require shots. I shot that stage in about 57 seconds. The slowest time was over 100 seconds (????!!!).

So being able to get on-target and shoot, transition from target to target when multiple targets are visible, deliver "precision" close shots ("A"-zone in head at 10 yards), maintain visual awareness, and shoot while moving -- FAST is important.

A typical long-range rifle stage would be like stage 4 at RM3G, only 18 or 19 require rounds, engaging far-away "flasher" steel targets (usually 10" square) at 200-350 yards (unmarked range), as you go through a field course. A smokin' time for that stage might be in the 90-second range with maybe a couple misses.

Link Posted: 9/25/2003 12:03:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 12:20:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 12:23:15 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Yeah, I am definitely shooting Raton again next year. Robbie Roberts - head Whittington Center dude - loved having "us" and wants RM3G to come back. The terrain there is most excellent and stage design is limited only one's imagination. Vacation and funds permitting, I also hope to make SMM3G and the ITRC (Gilette), MGM/Ironman-maybe. -z
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 12:49:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 2:49:09 PM EDT
Sinistral, In 6 months I'll actually be on a shift that will allow me to interact with the non-turds of the human race. Love to get to one of those shoots. Been FAR too long since Ive shot any competition.
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