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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 12/8/2003 4:59:28 PM EDT
In early october, I ordered a Vulcan/Hesse 9mm upper from Joeken. At the advise of this fine community, I cancelled my order before it shipped. Nonetheless I was billed on 10/6. I made repeated phone calls, sent repeated emails, and yet I was never reimbursed. Two months have gone by, and now I have had to file a claim with my bank and hire an attorney. Just wanted to give a heads up to those who would consider dealing with these folks.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:01:51 PM EDT
By the way, I would up buying a 6.5" upper with vertical grip from Olympic arms, along with a SOCOM block that allows my gun to take unmodified sten magazines. It works flawlessly on full auto. I paid more, but Im real happy with what I got....Screw Joeken.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:44:41 PM EDT
If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 6:04:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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[rolleyes] If they weren't going to give him his money back, they shouldn't have cancelled his order.[thinking]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 7:48:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 7:51:26 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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[b]What[/b], you have got to be kidding me! Have you ever heard of JoeKen? So, its okay for JoeKen to hold his money for months? Trust me, JoeKen is a well known scumbag. He has screwed people on several forums for years. This does not surprise me in the least.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:56:44 PM EDT
maybe its just me but joeken firearms? you must be joking, right? i don't think i could do buisness with a name like that. kinda like driving up to "cheetum & burnem auto repair" for an oil change and then wondering why all this stuff that use to work suddenly doesn't about 2 grand too late. well anyway sorry to hear about your troubles. hope you get it all worked out.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 11:13:13 PM EDT
Try filing a fraud claim with the Attorney General's office in your home state. Also contact your credit card company. You should have some fraud protection. Hiring an atorney will probably end up costing more than the AR.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 11:33:51 PM EDT
Always use a Visa card!
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:22:48 AM EDT
I wanted a 9mm upper. What I did not want was a piece of junk, which I found out from this list that Hesse/Vulcan arms is, so I cancelled it the next day. How can you say then that the merchant deserves to keep my $500? You must not be too familiar with the law, much less common sense. This guy JoeKen is a sho-nuff crook.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 4:08:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunbert: Always use a Visa card!
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Visa won't do anything for you. Use Amex.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 6:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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Maybe a restocking fee, but the entire amount???
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 7:46:47 AM EDT
JOKEN SUCKS ! Every one in Arizona knew that from the start ,now the rest know.that add in the Shotgun News get's new customers every day so they don't care .they are true scum .
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 9:30:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2003 11:41:02 AM EDT by M4arc]
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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Dude, are you a gunsnut [:K] ???
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 11:37:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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With the limited amount of info here how can you make such a absurd comment ? I guess you must work for the scumbags.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 12:12:16 PM EDT
If you had paid with a US Postal money order, you could sick the Postal investigators on him and he would be charged with Federal Felony Mail Fraud!
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 12:29:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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Matt, You got to be kidding. have you ever order something and decided you did not want it?? I know I have. to side with Joeken is just crazy. the shop should have taken a restocking charge and promptly refunded the money, not holding it for months and leave the poor guy out to dry.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:27:49 PM EDT
Its a business, If you cancel a order, maybe you should give them time to give you money back. But it shouldn't take that long, I thought he got the money back already, guess not. If you know Joeken is bad and still order from him, Its still your fault.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:59:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: Its a business, If you cancel a order, maybe you should give them time to give you money back. But it shouldn't take that long, I thought he got the money back already, guess not. If you know Joeken is bad and still order from him, Its still your fault.
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I think he made the order, later read on ARFCOM that Joeken is bad news, and then tried to cancel the order. Maybe they could charge him a small restocking fee, but keeping his money w/o sending a product is called stealing.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 4:26:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: Its a business, If you cancel a order, maybe you should give them time to give you money back. But it shouldn't take that long, I thought he got the money back already, guess not. If you know Joeken is bad and still order from him, Its still your fault.
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Come on man, not again [rolleyes] Based on his first post he clearly stated that [b]AFTER[/b] he found out, "at the advise of this fine community", Joeken was a joke he cancelled his order. Now, please go back to gunznut and leave this fine community alone.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 5:13:21 PM EDT
I placed an order for an AK-74 style brake back about a month ago... My card shows the charge but I have not recieved shit from him! I only got $25 ripped from me so pressing the issue is not a big concern but $500 damn... LawSuit!!!!
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 5:52:48 PM EDT
After countless calls to Joe and staff, and hearing every excuse imaginable, I had to go to my credit card company to get a refund for my Hesse receivers which were billed months prior with no delivery in sight. In the end, you will win if you file with your CC. CC disputes don't look favorable on merchant records, and in the end they hurt Joeken....which makes you wonder why they push people to the point where it's self-destructive for the company? Who knows...just get you money back and order elsewhere. take care, Tec
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 6:45:00 PM EDT
I know you had a bad experience and I am sorry to hear it, but when you get your cash back and you are ready to buy, check out [url]www.adcofirearms.com[/url]. I got a RRA 9mm upper (complete) w/muzzle brake for $415 shipped.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 9:57:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2003 10:03:16 PM EDT by Raptor22]
I made that mistake a while back. My CC was charged the same day that I placed my order but the merchandise did not show until seven weeks later. Oddly enough, I received their catalog five days after I placed the order. Their BS excuse is that their policy is not to charge a CC until the product ships and that it was a mistake. It seems though that it is the norm. They are very quick to take your money but very slow to deliver. It get the impression that they use your money to fill previous orders. This is nothing but a house of cards waiting to come crashing down. Shades of you know who and the chicken coop. BTW, those of you who think that WidespreadPanic should get back his money minus a restocking fee, you all are dead wrong. A restocking fee is imposed if you return merchandise after you receive it not if you cancel an order before it is shipped. I seriously doubt that JoeKen has ever shipped an order the same day or the day after it was placed.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:57:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 4:58:53 AM EDT by Oilhead]
Just dispute the charge on your cc. It might take a few weeks to get resolved, but in the interim... you do not pay interest on the charge and no payment is due until resolution (which will always rule in your favor). These armchair quarterbacks that are ruling the play in this merchants favor might feel a little different if they were in your situation... [;)]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:17:28 AM EDT
I think the only way I would buy from would be to buy at their shop. Not too far from me. I would never buy a firearm from them because the guy posts ads on gunsnet and when people ask questions about the quality on certain Vulcan products, he completely ignores them.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:33:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 7:45:04 AM EDT by SULACO2]
I sat on the sideline and watched quietly... I ordered in June, several Vltor stocks, at the intro price of $84.00. Some here may remember the ad in Shotgun News, some even referred others here, to the ad. At the time I was advised, that 1 was in stock and the remainder would ship upon their arrival. Honorable. An estimate of 2-3 wks. "tops" was given, incorrect, but, I believe, an honest "best guess". My CC was charged at the time of the initial offer, even though they knew they did not have the merch. "in hand", not dishonest, but not great policy. In November, after several [b]MONTHS[/b] of calling, me to them, not back and forward, did I receive a check for the purchase price of the remainding stocks. BTW the initial stock was marked as NEW, it was an open box when it arrived, though it was complete and un-mounted. It worked out for me, after more work than it should have taken. "OUR" sellers are reputable and have always been honorable, from my dealings w/ them. If they come back here time and again, they are a part of our community and respect us as customers and some as friends. We take care of our own. Send your biz. their way and sleep tight. Hawkeye, Chris at Eagle Firearms, C4iGrant, Wes at MSTN, Corey at Adrenaline, among others, and I appollogize to any I've forgotten, are all 100% and I've had some odd requests, they've bent over backwards to honor. They are the standard all businesses should be judged by and many do it part time. And on the re-stock fee, I've personally cancelled on some of the guys I've listed, and usually because I couldn't balance a penny candy budget. Not only did they never charge me a fee, they treat me like their "best" customer every time I contact them subsequently. How could JoeKen justify a "re-stock" fee for an item that never had a chance to leave the shelf? Its just a way to "legally" steal your money. Keep it in the family. /S2
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:58:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SULACO2: ...How could JoeKen justify a "re-stock" fee for an item that never had a chance to leave the shelf? Its just a way to "legally" steal your money. Keep it in the family. /S2
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Hey, don't get me wrong! I think he should get all of his money back, but I was thinking worse case scenario here. I agree that it is BS to charge a re-stock fee (and I don't complete understand why it costs money to put an item back on the self) but IF it is their policy, he may have to deal with that fee. I also agree with the others, do the CC (if you paid with plastic) charge back before it is TOO LATE! I had to do one once, and I think the deadline was 90 days with my card. And finally, they shouldn't even charge a CC until the item is shipped.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:50:13 AM EDT
Just for clarification; it's Joe(and)Ken; two guys not one. Don't have a horse in this race, so will not comment further [:D]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 10:42:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Alacrity: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Gunbert: Always use a Visa card! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil_a_steen- Visa won't do anything for you. Use Amex. ----------------------------------- Phil: Not true, per merchant agreement, no sig or proof of delivery automatic reversal. No service rendered, no merchandise delivered, it will be reversed even if you signed in some instances. But no signature on the sales slip, absolutely no issue. Call your Visa issuer - tell them you wish to file a claim, you did not sign, did not recieve merchandise. Poof Reversal. How do I know. 2-5 times per month my company is dinged for non-signature to the tune of $500-$4500. Cost of doing business. We get our money eventually, since its for rent, but you have no recourse to Visa/MC unless you have a signature on the sales slip. As far as a Postal MO - well its discretionary. If the Inspector has time and aburr up his ass, maybe he'll go the distance. But dont count on Mail Fraud for a $20 MO. It wont happen. Luck Alac
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Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:42:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 5:42:37 PM EDT by SULACO2]
Hey, don't get me wrong! I think he should get all of his money back, but I was thinking worse case scenario here. I agree that it is BS to charge a re-stock fee (and I don't complete understand why it costs money to put an item back on the self) but IF it is their policy, he may have to deal with that fee. I also agree with the others, do the CC (if you paid with plastic) charge back before it is TOO LATE! I had to do one once, and I think the deadline was 90 days with my card. And finally, they shouldn't even charge a CC until the item is shipped.
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Agreed. /S2
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:57:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you know Joeken is bad and still order from him, Its still your fault.
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Wrong again!
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 9:59:13 PM EDT
As the old saying goes: THe customer is always right...
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:41:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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=[:K]DU
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:15:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Yute: As the old saying goes: THe customer is always right...
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That saying seems to get lost here on ar15. I know there are quite a few vendors that live by that rule (mstn comes to mind) but there are a few vendors here that act like they are doing you a favor by selling you a product. your wallet is your best weapon, if you think that the customer service is subpar, take your business elsewhere and tell ALL your friends, family and whoever will listen not to frequent that business. You'd be surprised how effective word-of-mouth can be. Just reading the original post will ensure that I will never do business with Joeken again (and none of my friends or family will either and I'm sure they will spread the word as well). Same goes for SAW sales as well.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:16:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you know Joeken is bad and still order from him, Its still your fault.
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FUCK YOU! [:K] [:K] [:K]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:07:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jedi_rifleman:
Originally Posted By mattdvk: If you didn't want it you shouldn't of ordered it, I have to side with Joeken.
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=[:K]DU
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I don't think he's from the DU, I think he's from gunznut. For some reason they think Joeken walks on water over there. Go figure.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:57:33 PM EDT
I almost got kicked off another board once for warning someone about JoeKen and their crappy Hesse ARs. Needless to say, I never went back there. On top of that, the mods on the board convinced the poor newbie to go with the Hesse. I wonder what ever happened to that guy. I hope he got a fluke and got one that actually worked. If I were the ones that were scammed by the mods, I would be pissed. Of course, JoeKen was a site sponsor, so I understand why they stood up for them. However, a board that would ally themselves with Hesse/Vulcan/Joeken is not worth anyone's time, trust, or attention. And for the mods to actually push the product, that seems unethical to me, very unethical. I know everyone is biased to what they like, even the mods here, but to defend a company that so obviously doesn't give a damn about their customers or the quality of their product is ridiculous. Around here, sponsors who would do that on a regular basis would be given the cold shoulder and eventually allowed to fade away quietly.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:54:15 PM EDT
Thanks to all for the encouragement except for the one fool. I just don't want any other unsuspecting people to make this mistake. I have disputed my credit card, but its been a while now. JoeKen sucks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:42:43 AM EDT
We all hear horror stories, but AR15.com has turned me on to four members of EE who have given me EXCELLENT service: G and R Tactical (GREAT price on Eotech, prompt) ammoman.com (5 mags, exactly as expected...) Adco Firearms (good correspondence, perfect...) Quantico Arms (Above and beyond, impressive...) I would recommend any of these guys from personal experience. Here's to the "good guys"... [beer]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:38:28 AM EDT
I might also add: Georgia Precision (the only gripe is that they should let people know when they won't be in town and that their orders might be delayed) but other than that, the parts were excellent! Brownells is a company I can't rave enough about...they have everything and the customer service is superb and fast! Ace ltd is also a company I want to give Kudos to. I'm sure there are more (just haven't dealt with them yet) on this site that deserves equal praise.
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