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Link Posted: 12/17/2021 11:23:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HenryKnoxFineBooks] [#1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:


You might have to order an authentic H&R lower from H&R, & transfer it through a local dealer @ a gunshow, harumph, harumph.
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H&R didn't make XM16E1s or XM177s ......  

One of the factors contributing to the popularity of retro IMO, was the guys who constantly raise the bar by making things very close to the original. NoDak supplied some of the tools to do that, and 80% lowers were one of the keys to very close approximations of the real thing. And it was a while before NoDak sold 80% lowers ... and unlike other 80%s, I drilled the selector detent  .....  waiting period of over a year .... That was the price of creating a replica of what I carried for real.

Typically, when a small speciality company gets bought out, there is the promise of nothing changing, only now there will be more resources to produce what made the small company attractive for the buyout. The small company is frequently successful because it will serve a market niche that large companies did not find profitable. A reason for that success is the investment in the cost of production and quality that results in a lower margin, but appeals to the market leaders that make the product popular. Within a year, the popular product is withdrawn and level of service quality declines - we shall see if this will be the exception.

I'm one of the guys who started down this path 10 years ago - lower forgings, Ghost Gunner 3 for accurate milling, and hunting down companies that could do type 3 hardcoat all finally came together this year, and one of the key components is at risk of leaving the market.
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 11:36:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 11:40:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 12:24:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By P0H0:
Great news and congrats!

I hope you were able to send Brownells some forgings recently — they are pretty much out of everything.
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I just bought (another) M16A1 retro lower this week and transferred it home on Wednesday.
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 12:39:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 12:46:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Congrats Mike.  I'll surely miss the personal service I always received but production must go on. What are Harlan's plans?  I saw no mention of him?
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 12:57:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 1:32:38 PM EDT
[#8]
I believe it was you, Mike, who said at some point you have had a plan for a new weapons system rolling around in your head for years but needed a bigger opportunity to make it work... So do we get to see yet?  
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 1:59:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 2:53:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Pretty excited for this and where it goes.  I wish the NDS family all the best!

I look forward to giving my HRA M1 Garand some cousins.  

A close-enough M16A1 clone is all I need, chromed barrel please, not nitride.
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 3:10:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:


Yes, I have a non-retro design that has been on the backburner for a few years.
It's 95% done and has around 1500 rounds down the pipe. Can't go into any more detail than that.
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Originally Posted By mike_nds:
Originally Posted By BenC:
I believe it was you, Mike, who said at some point you have had a plan for a new weapons system rolling around in your head for years but needed a bigger opportunity to make it work... So do we get to see yet?  


Yes, I have a non-retro design that has been on the backburner for a few years.
It's 95% done and has around 1500 rounds down the pipe. Can't go into any more detail than that.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 5:47:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Things like this usually end up being the beginning of the end.  But if anyone can make this work, it's PSA.
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 10:48:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Wow! Congrats.
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 11:48:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 1:17:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: techno_000] [#15]
I’m happy for you guys, I think psa is doing some cool stuff for the collectible AK and AR markets. They are really going all in.

It will be a good thing for everyone. I’ve always enjoyed working with you guys and using your uppers and lower blanks.
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 1:53:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Winning!
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 2:20:46 AM EDT
[#17]
@mlin
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 1:49:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 4:25:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Very exciting news!
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 7:23:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Congratulations, Mike. I hope all this works out well for everyone involved. I do have one question about something I had asked about a little while back- any plans/chance of working in another run of the correct prototype AR uppers and lowers, once you guys get set up and running again? I would still love to build one based on what you had. I was disappointed in the Brownells version as a prototype (although it has turned into a nice clone of the 601 for me, after some work) but what I have seen here built with your set turned out REALLY nice. Would love to get another chance at one, one of these days when my budget and your scheduling allows.

On a side note, my very first gun was a H&R Topper Jr. single shot shotgun in 28ga. Still have it, even.
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 7:43:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 7:53:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
I can't speak fully for Harlan. But he is going to retire.

Maybe he'll go on a craft beer tour or something.

View Quote


Wow - That is nice - Congrats to him and you both. I remember talking with Harlan on the phone for orders, etc since the Fed Arms days.
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 7:58:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Very interesting
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 8:00:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: matai] [#24]
Any plans for 10/22 stuff?

PSA10/22
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 8:04:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
The prototype lowers were our 601 forgings that were cut differently. It takes a massive amount of handwork to blend the left side and areas around the buffer tube.

It may happen, but I’m not making any promises.
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C7 uppers, please
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 10:58:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Just 2 words" game-changing".
I could see a point where H & R could eventually start producing high-grade AR-15 and retro M16 A1 copies. Myself I'd be just happy with some correct receiver with the H & R markings on it oh I can't wait dad is going to be today good luck Mike and Harlem. You guys have always done me right,
Link Posted: 12/18/2021 11:35:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:44:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
I plan on having more made, it’s going to take a while to get NDS products into the production schedule.
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Oh, god... I assume this is going to be all under the same roof as PSA production, and that's what the move is all about?

I don't think you can teach them, but can you send them all home when you run H&R parts?

As noted, NoDak has a well earned reputation for excellence and PSA... the opposite.

(Sorry for being negative- that's what everyone is thinking!)
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 4:02:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Well if H&R why dont you guys resurrect the T 223 rifle aka HK93 from the 60s-70s that would be killer!
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 7:21:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 8:23:09 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 31stMEUSOC:
Well if H&R why dont you guys resurrect the T 223 rifle aka HK93 from the 60s-70s that would be killer!
View Quote


I wish someone would make .223 HKs. I've been kicking myself for not buying a C93 when Cabela's was blowing them out. Now they're almost triple the price.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 8:50:15 AM EDT
[#32]
Nice.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 8:56:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:

This is extremely exciting for me and I have big plans for H&R, and not just in the retro AR15 market.

The biggest thing I ask is to have patience, as there will be a transition and learning curve for my new crew.
View Quote

I'll take a T48.  Thanks!  
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 8:56:23 AM EDT
[#34]
Redesign H&R .45 ACP Model 60 semi auto carbine to use Glock mags.

CD
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 9:02:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 9:21:17 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:


And I don’t want to be harsh, but I would guess that you have not purchased any current PSA
products?

I have, and they are solid. I have also been in multiple facilities and seen their products go from start to finish.

Their AK’s are beautiful.

What people need to understand is percentages. Their blem/defect rate is probably lower than ours.

They are just putting out 1000 x the products.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101:


Oh, god... I assume this is going to be all under the same roof as PSA production, and that's what the move is all about?

I don't think you can teach them, but can you send them all home when you run H&R parts?

As noted, NoDak has a well earned reputation for excellence and PSA... the opposite.

(Sorry for being negative- that's what everyone is thinking!)


And I don’t want to be harsh, but I would guess that you have not purchased any current PSA
products?

I have, and they are solid. I have also been in multiple facilities and seen their products go from start to finish.

Their AK’s are beautiful.

What people need to understand is percentages. Their blem/defect rate is probably lower than ours.

They are just putting out 1000 x the products.


That's a huge compliment coming from you knowing the way your shop handles stuff.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 10:57:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:


Yeah, I was already thinking about that one. It’s an overlooked delayed blow back system because of the reliability issues associated with the magazine.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
Redesign H&R .45 ACP Model 60 semi auto carbine to use Glock mags.

CD


Yeah, I was already thinking about that one. It’s an overlooked delayed blow back system because of the reliability issues associated with the magazine.


Extended 1911 mags would preserve the look of the original, but it's never going to be a big seller.  M3A1 GreaseGun pistol and rifle would be cheap enough to make if you actually made stamping dies.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 1:05:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sputnik556] [#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:


Extended 1911 mags would preserve the look of the original, but it's never going to be a big seller.  M3A1 GreaseGun pistol and rifle would be cheap enough to make if you actually made stamping dies.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
Redesign H&R .45 ACP Model 60 semi auto carbine to use Glock mags.

CD


Yeah, I was already thinking about that one. It’s an overlooked delayed blow back system because of the reliability issues associated with the magazine.


Extended 1911 mags would preserve the look of the original, but it's never going to be a big seller.  M3A1 GreaseGun pistol and rifle would be cheap enough to make if you actually made stamping dies.

A semiauto grease gun would be awesome, but I doubt we’ll see one.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 1:46:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sputnik556:  A semiauto grease gun would be awesome, but I doubt we’ll see one.
View Quote


It's been done, but small production, which is not the way to make a Grease Gun.  If made in quantity, it would be as cheap as a HiPoint.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 1:59:33 PM EDT
[#40]
I had a tranny Reising and even with new production mags, it was never bombproof.  I no longer own said rifle as a result.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:05:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sputnik556] [#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:


It's been done, but small production, which is not the way to make a Grease Gun.  If made in quantity, it would be as cheap as a HiPoint.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By Sputnik556:  A semiauto grease gun would be awesome, but I doubt we’ll see one.


It's been done, but small production, which is not the way to make a Grease Gun.  If made in quantity, it would be as cheap as a HiPoint.

Do you think there’s enough demand to produce them in the kind of quantity?

I’d love to have one (or a STEN), but I’m not sure how many people feel the same.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:23:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:27:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:
A semiautomatic grease gun is a boat anchor imho.

I seriously doubt sales would justify the cost to tool up for it.

View Quote

I assume you have the same opinion of the Sten?
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:50:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Didnt....Valkerie (?) arms make a semi-auto M3?

No one in the real world buys shit like that. The arfcom retro forum is probably the least representative group of gunowners to ask new gun ideas from. This is a small niche group.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 2:55:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Didnt....Valkerie (?) arms make a semi-auto M3?

No one in the real world buys shit like that. The arfcom retro forum is probably the least representative group of gunowners to ask new gun ideas from. This is a small niche group.
View Quote

🤫

Link Posted: 12/19/2021 3:10:45 PM EDT
[#46]
I've handled a couple of Val's semi-auto grease guns. Aside from the goofy-looking 16" barrel, they didn't seem all that bad (although I never owned or shot one, so that opinion comes with a salt lick's worth of grains) and her biggest issue as I understood the story was more of a personal nature (with the ATF?) rather than the weapon itself.

So yeah, a semi-auto grease gun would be pretty cool, except the dies for the different stampings would probably be cost prohibitive unless you were selling a LOT of them. Maybe? Might be worth pricing them to see, or if at least some of it could be 3d printed or machined? Of course, then you would have the purists who would balk at the idea that you weren't using the original GM dies, etc. Hell; we ALL know how that goes, right? Guilty myself of that one.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 4:05:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Did the H&R brand include any of the historical tooling, drawings, etc?
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 4:10:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Me thinks the M3 would be best marketed as a pistol. I can imagine how goofy it would look with a 16" barrel. Would be cool with a brace but there is some uncertainty with their future as they are currently marketed.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 4:27:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mike_nds:  A semiautomatic grease gun is a boat anchor imho.

I seriously doubt sales would justify the cost to tool up for it.
View Quote


Fair nuff.  You're the expert.

But of all the service weapons of the 20th Century you could reproduce, that would be the cheapest one to make - in quantity.  Stamp out 50k receivers and assemble at leisure as orders came in.  Introduce an AR-45 lower that took Grease Gun mags, now you have another product consuming the same mags, and a natural draw for folks to buy Grease Gun pistols & rifles.  Given how cheap you could make em, you could undercut HiPoint's .45 ACP carbine.
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 5:08:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kalalp:
Did the H&R brand include any of the historical tooling, drawings, etc?
View Quote


I’m guessing that stuff all got s#itcanned in 1986……
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