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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 7/7/2003 6:23:40 PM EDT
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JAMMED WEAPONS, DEAD SOLDIERS
The Progressive Review wrote:
ED OFFLEY, SOLDIERS FOR THE TRUTH - Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information. It now appears that the soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner in that now-infamous firefight shared a common misfortune. Their rifles had all jammed. blackwaterusa.com/btw/articles/jammed.html

ED OFFLEY, SOLDIERS FOR THE TRUTH - Buried deep within the latest news
report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co.
in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information. It now
appears that the soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner in that
now-infamous firefight shared a common misfortune. Their rifles had all
jammed.

Disavowing an earlier news report that had alleged Pvt. Jessica Lynch
had fired multiple clips of ammunition at the attacking Iraqis before
she was injured and taken prisoner, The Washington Post has now
published a more detailed account. The newspaper described how she was
seriously injured when the Humvee vehicle in which she was riding
crashed at high speed into an overturned Army tractor-trailer. Then, the
team of three Post reporters noted:

"Lynch tried to fire her weapon, but it jammed, according to military
officials familiar with the Army investigation. She did not kill any
Iraqis. She was neither shot nor stabbed, they said."

As the Pentagon proceeds with its official "after action reports" and
"lessons learned" effort from Operation Iraqi Freedom, troubling
information has begun to emerge from numerous sources that jammed
weapons were a serious problem in Iraq. Worse, it appears that this
happened because many American troops were equipped with a lubricant to
clean their rifles and side arms that was ineffective in the harsh
desert environment.

It wasn't just Pvt. Lynch in the 507th Maintenance Co. who fell victim
to a jammed weapon. An earlier report in The Washington Post on Apr. 14,
2003, contained the first detailed accounts of the ambush from the
just-rescued POWs:

"The bullets and explosions came from all sides. Some of the vehicles
flipped over. Other drivers hit the gas hoping to outrun the danger, but
ran into even heavier fire. In the swirling dust, soldiers' rifles
jammed. Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, from suburban Wichita, began shoving
rounds into his rifle one at a time, firing single shots at enemies
swarming all around. ... Finally, it fell to Sgt. James Riley, a
31-year-old bachelor from Pennsauken, N.J., and the senior soldier
present, to surrender. 'We were like Custer,' he recalled today, still
sounding shocked. 'We were surrounded. We had no working weapons. We
couldn't even make a bayonet charge ‚ we would have been mowed down.'"

The probable cause of this widespread weapons failure has been blamed on
a government-issued lubricant known as "CLP" that has been provided to
many ‚ but not all ‚ U.S. Army soldiers. A number of Army veterans and
contractors have denounced CLP as totally ineffective in preventing sand
and dust buildup in weapons in Iraq.

"The CLP and Breakfree brand oil the military purchases is worthless,"
said Aaron Johnson, a 10-year veteran of the Army and Army Reserve, and
author of a Defense Watch guest column on the Army M9 sidearm ("How to
Save the M9 Beretta," June 16, 2003). "I'm sure large amounts are
acquired [by the Army] at relatively low cost, but that's why it should
be done away with. That oil is too rich, and has little effectiveness at
keeping weapons clean." "The troops will tell you, CLP attracts dirt and
grit." Johnson continued. "It is also so thick it can reduce recoil
speed, resulting in stoppages. It thickens in the cold, and when in hot
weather areas it is usually attracting dust and sand."

In an e-mail forwarded to Defense Watch, retired Lt. Col. Robert
Kovacic, who works for a defense contractor in Kuwait that trains U.S.
military units, echoed Johnson's remarks. "I can say with complete
assuredness, from many, many observations [of training exercises], that
CLP does not work. I did not use it ... at Fort Polk (cause it did not
prevent rust, I don't care what the government says), and it sure as
hell does not work here."

What is bewildering to veterans such as these is that there is a product
that has proven effective in desert combat. MILITEC-1 Synthetic Metal
Conditioner, manufactured by the company of the same name, has been
approved for Army use and is already widely used by the U.S. Coast
Guard, FBI and a host of other federal police agencies. But the Army
apparently is still shipping CLP en masse to the troops and has resisted
ordering the synthetic lubricant, forcing unit commanders to pay out of
their own pockets to acquire it.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 6:34:11 PM EDT
So it's CLP's fault we have dead soldiers? [rolleyes] What happened to their sidearms? Radios to call for support?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 6:40:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 7:03:52 PM EDT by Horik]
Go to the Militec website and read the same type stuff there. They blantanly blame the US Army for killing those soldiers since they would not buy Militec1. Sounds lot like someone is trying to promote here? Hmmmmm! You can say all you want about CLP but Militec! is not worth crap for protection/corrosion PERIOD! Nor does is clean much! Lube yes I will say it is good at that! Plus: Progressive Review? Is that? www.prorev.com
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:05:56 PM EDT
Well, shoot! If CLP doesn't work, what the heck are we supposed to use?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:14:15 PM EDT
Boring [beathorse][beathorse][beathorse]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:14:33 PM EDT
Beef Jerky. Why do you think they sell it at gunshows?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:05:06 PM EDT
Why not use LSA? Works like a charm....
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:08:48 PM EDT
Ok...let me get this strait...You have hundreds of units who's M-16's worked in the Gulf, You have one rear guard unit who's M-16's almost all malfunctioned in the Gulf....Hmmm sounds like a individual unit problem rather than an M-16 problem to me. I'd sure hate to be the armorer for that unit.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:15:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Beef Jerky. Why do you think they sell it at gunshows?
View Quote
And it's a tasty treat too!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:17:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By P806:
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Beef Jerky. Why do you think they sell it at gunshows?
View Quote
And it's a tasty treat too!
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I love beef jerky!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:35:59 PM EDT
if there where keeping their weapons clean like they are supposed to be doing than their weapons wouldnt get jammed.
"The troops will tell you, CLP attracts dirt and grit.
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wont all gun oil attract grit if you give it a chance?. i think we got a bunch troops slacking on the gun cleaning. maybe they are putting too much on the weapons.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:46:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GUN N 4FUN: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAMMED WEAPONS, DEAD SOLDIERS The Progressive Review wrote: ED OFFLEY, SOLDIERS FOR THE TRUTH - Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information.
View Quote
How much did they pay you to post this horse crap?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:52:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By llanero: Well, shoot! If CLP doesn't work, what the heck are we supposed to use?
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Use Mil-Comm. This has/is being used out A-STAN from what I understand. It lubes like crazy and doesn't attract as much grit and debris. Even if you wipe it off it still retains its lubrication properties. Here's a link to a thread I started regarding this stuff...I think there's a SOLDIER in there that says his crew(?) vouches for the stuff. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=150945[/url]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 9:04:34 PM EDT
So, they could load them one at a time with no problem, but misfire when loaded from a magazine????
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 10:12:17 PM EDT
In that statement above as soon as they started their guns jammed. How could CLP make a clean unfired gun jam on the first shot. How could their guns have so much grit or dirt or clp in them to make them jam the first time out. The guns the maintenece troops had should have been clean as a whistle. The only way I could see this happening is if they loaded them with clp and them rolled them around in the sand or dirt and then didn't clean them for awhile and then when the column was ambushed they jammed. What bullshit, and their saying they all jammed! One person in that whole group should have had a clean well kept rifle.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 10:43:07 PM EDT
STANMAN, but they weren't shooting the rounds from magazines, they were shooting them from "clips." Me thinks you need to get in the know!! [:D]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 10:44:27 PM EDT
[BS2] Clean your fucking weapon you REMF's! The frontline guys had no real issues, because they cleaned their guns twice a day!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 10:53:03 PM EDT
I'm a ex-Marine. Used CLP for 6 years and never had a problem. Granted I was never in combat (missed Gulf 1 by 3 months), but my weapon never jammed once. I humped 29 stumps in sand and the weapon still worked. Not sure this story holds water. I agree, clean the weapon, twice. Marines clean their weapons until they are edible.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 1:39:46 AM EDT
There have been at least 2 VERY large threads that have beat this stinking pile of BS to death. And they are months old. So lets rehash this garbage all over again.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 3:28:08 AM EDT
Hey, I didn't get in on the last one. It's been my experience that aside from a part breaking on weapons that most malfunctions are directly related to the maintenance of the weapon. Alot of people for whatever reason don't clean them. They will carry it all year and after the first shot or so it won't work then have to stop to lube it. Of course, if you shot it more often, it might come out of the holster. I did an experiment one time. Took a brand new SW 9mm pistol, lubed it, shot it upwards of 8-900 rounds before it was cleaned. I kept a shot log on it, shot it everyway I cound think of to try and introduce a malfunction(Upside down, sideways, with a limp wrist, etc.)I used different lubes, including transmission fluid, 30w oil. I shot 12000 rounds through it before getting another pistol, switched from a double action only to a double single. I didn't have a single malfunction with that gun. I see guns run all day in the heat, rain, dust, full auto, etc. They have been maintained and work. My .02 Mark
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:10:28 AM EDT
The Progressive Review wrote: It now appears that the soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner in that now-infamous firefight shared a common misfortune. Their rifles had [red]all [/red]jammed.
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"All". What does that tell us? Did "all" of the M16s in Iraq "jam"? No. How about most? No. But all of the M16s found in one particular (non-combat arms) unit "jammed". Could it be a batch of defective weapons? Not likely. The most likely answer here, is that there was a lack of weapons maintenance going on. And that is a leadership problem.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:53:49 AM EDT
Does it strike anybody else as interesting that everytime one of these exposes at SFTT discovers some critical problem with a piece of equipment they have already identified a competitor who lost out on a contract as the solution? This reminds me of the expose they did claiming the ACOG was performing poorly and that one of the issues with it was (get this)... poor battery life. They then went on to recommend and provide links to the Leupold CQT as the solution.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:34:22 AM EDT
You would think that soldiers in a maintenece company would know how to "maintain"there weapons,di anything else they "maintained" fail,id like to see the maintenece records for equipment they "serviced"hope it wasnt something someone else had to depend on for their lives.They probably figure they would never see the enemy.In war expect the unexpected.Im not trying to flame them especialy the ones that lost their lives,but the lesson of dying because the weapon was not maintained has already been taught in a past war 35 years ago,only this time it cant be said they were told it was a self cleaning rifle,the ammo problem has been cleared up and I assume they were issued cleaning kits.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 6:14:09 AM EDT
Aside from all of the other stuff being posted about this issue, I have to say that I use CLP for cleaning and wiping down, and I lube all of the moving parts and contact points with Militec. I won a tactical match and along with a bunch of Blackhawk stuff, and other prizes I was given 2 bottles of the stuff. When the guys handed it to me they (they being NAM vets, current currrent Marines and Local P.O.) told me the stuff is priceless. I gave one bottle to my father and I use it sparingly on all of my high priced weapons. (H&K, AR15 etc. Nothing but the best) I think it works great and am impressed. It dows not gunk up at all, and I thought it would gather powder residue and other stuff. None at all. That is just my personal opinion. How it would do in the deserts of Iraq, I couldn't give you a clue, but in the harsh climates of Pennsylvania and Missouri it works great. :) (huh..huh.. harsh climate in pennsylvania, I crack myself up)
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 7:45:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Midiman:
Originally Posted By GUN N 4FUN: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAMMED WEAPONS, DEAD SOLDIERS The Progressive Review wrote: ED OFFLEY, SOLDIERS FOR THE TRUTH - Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information.
View Quote
How much did they pay you to post this horse crap?
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[size=3][blue]In defense of the post made by GUN N 4FUN I offer the following:[/blue][/size=3] [size=4][center][b]ArmaLite Technical Note 29, Rifle cleaning Dated April 10, 1999[/b][/center][/size=4] [red]"CLP is a compromise product and does nothing especially well. Some of the most experienced of the government's small arms engineers have concluded that the old combination of RBC (Rifle Bore Cleaner) and LSA (Lubricant, semifluid, Automatic Weapons) is the best combination of materials for the ArmaLite family Arms. We (ArmaLite) with the RBC/LSA combination as a starting point with other later products judiciously used if available."[/red] [b]Added comment from the same Tech Note 29: NEVER use more than one bore cleaner during cleaning as some will react adversely when used in combination.[/b] MAW (MAW is Mark A Westrom, ArmaLite's President)
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 7:54:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DigDug:
Originally Posted By P806:
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Beef Jerky. Why do you think they sell it at gunshows?
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And it's a tasty treat too!
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I love beef jerky!
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It gives me the wind something terrible. [;)]
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:01:14 AM EDT
that deer jerky the sell at gun shows is real good too!
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:10:05 AM EDT
I clean with solvent and then Remoil. That's me. I will guess that piss poor maintenance is at the root of this problem and that is a leadership problem, as noted, if so. Either that or they had these weapons very overlubricated. Sometimes less is more. In very cold or dusty environments the less lube the better. Hell, they would've probably been better off with no lube in these circumstances then overlubing. Be interesting to see when the entire true story comes out... The media has no area in which their technical expertise is more lacking than firearms.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:26:18 AM EDT
no body paid me to post this i got newsletter from the [url]http://blackwaterusa.com[/url] mailing list, and thought id pass it on to other members who might be interested in it. as for clp goes i have been using it my self for years on my weapons with no problems. Midiman 7/8/2003 12:46:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By GUN N 4FUN: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAMMED WEAPONS, DEAD SOLDIERS The Progressive Review wrote: ED OFFLEY, SOLDIERS FOR THE TRUTH - Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How much did they pay you to post this horse crap?
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:36:50 AM EDT
Maybe we can save some time here: Response 1: Those M16s are crap and we should have an AK-pattern rifle. Response 2: Those M16s are crap and we should have a G36-pattern rifle. Response 3: Those M16s are fine, this was an isolated incident. Supply columns get over-run in battles. It happens. Response 4: The problem is the 5.56. We should go back to the Krag-Jorgenson! (or M1 or M14). G23c
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 10:16:12 AM EDT
Guys, remember that the sandstorms were before the incident. They all should have had the dust covers closed, and a condom or something over the muzzle. I've seen dust storms in Nevada render Mossberg 590 pump shotgun actions useless in 15 minutes, (as they totally seized up) This isn't sand we're talking about here, the silica (dust) particles are much finer, accumulate incredibly fast, and stick to the pores in the metal with just a hint of lubrication on them, and then to each other! The only firearms that didn't malfunction that day weren't my buddy's colt AR, or my Wilson combat AR type. They were HK pistols, (even revolver actions were extremely gritty!) and the, (always getting a bad rap), rifles designed to be shot with a handfull of sand in the action.(AKs, Hungarian and Russian) I think I should be able to write that since I own and love both ARs and AKs, but feel free to FLAME AWAY. I'm just reporting the facts of my experience. Cleaning the weapon IMO can only be done out of the brunt of the dust storm, as the dust accumulates quicker than one can clean it off. Solvent/brushing didn't work too well in getting the film off either. I had to use water/brush/Heavy duty air compressor/solvent/oil/ and repeated as necessary leaving the water out of the mix as much as possible. The compressed air seemed to work best with water to get the remaining film of silica off. Oh, why would we go out in those conditions??? In Vegas the dust was barely visible, but an hour away in Overton, when we pulled up to my buddies property we noticed much more dust in the air, but hated the thought of going all the way out there with all that fire power and not letting at least a few rounds fly. A few always turn into more! Just an experience that might help those who've never been in a dust storm understand what it's like. It's not sand per say, it's like talc that accumulates on itself and at minimum makes actions extremely rough, at worst seizes them like nothing I've ever seen.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 11:20:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Guns4Musenic: Guys, remember that the sandstorms were before the incident. They all should have had the dust covers closed, and a condom or something over the muzzle. I've seen dust storms in Nevada render Mossberg 590 pump shotgun actions useless in 15 minutes, (as they totally seized up) This isn't sand we're talking about here, the silica (dust) particles are much finer, accumulate incredibly fast, and stick to the pores in the metal with just a hint of lubrication on them, and then to each other! The only firearms that didn't malfunction that day weren't my buddy's colt AR, or my Wilson combat AR type. They were HK pistols, (even revolver actions were extremely gritty!) and the, (always getting a bad rap), rifles designed to be shot with a handfull of sand in the action.(AKs, Hungarian and Russian) I think I should be able to write that since I own and love both ARs and AKs, but feel free to FLAME AWAY. I'm just reporting the facts of my experience. Cleaning the weapon IMO can only be done out of the brunt of the dust storm, as the dust accumulates quicker than one can clean it off. Solvent/brushing didn't work too well in getting the film off either. I had to use water/brush/Heavy duty air compressor/solvent/oil/ and repeated as necessary leaving the water out of the mix as much as possible. The compressed air seemed to work best with water to get the remaining film of silica off. Oh, why would we go out in those conditions??? In Vegas the dust was barely visible, but an hour away in Overton, when we pulled up to my buddies property we noticed much more dust in the air, but hated the thought of going all the way out there with all that fire power and not letting at least a few rounds fly. A few always turn into more! Just an experience that might help those who've never been in a dust storm understand what it's like. It's not sand per say, it's like talc that accumulates on itself and at minimum makes actions extremely rough, at worst seizes them like nothing I've ever seen.
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Just curious if anyone has shot their AR-15s in these conditions with no lube?
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 12:22:42 PM EDT
You are assuming this story is true (it ain't). As we have seen since the war, the stories relating to Pvt. Lynch were pure BS. She did not attempt to fire any weapon, so she couldn't have had a weapon jam. The same goes for the other girl, Shoshanna the cook.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 12:26:20 PM EDT
To the question "What shall we use?" the answer is FP-10. In sandy/desert conditions any oily substance, including MPC FP-10 must be wiped dry. With FP-10, a lubricant is still there when the surface is apparently dry. In the ambush in question it is obvious that the REMFs' weapons were in no condition to fight, and it probably had little to do with what oil was used. After all, the enemy had full use of his automatic rifles, and he was outside in the elements, not riding in a vehicle. BTW, I am not affiliated in any way with MPC, but I use their automotive and firearms products, since they are the best I have found for their stated purposes.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:27:18 PM EDT
DrJarHead, both mine and my friend's ARs were lightly lubed with oil as were all of our weapons, not dry, unfortunately...in desert climates there's no need to go crazy with oil/grease coating as rust is not a problem. I never did get to duplicate the conditions, nor would I want to because cleaning took so much effort! Like 3 hours a gun. Not to mention the nylon gun cases, and that stuff is supposed to be hell on your lungs as well. The dust is so sticky and fine that the most powerful vacuum won't even budge it...nor would a great craftsman air compressor blow it off the metal surface without wetting it with solvent and blowing and rubbing it with a damp rag.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 3:35:46 PM EDT
Yo me gusto Beef Jerky very very mucho tambien!
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:17:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vatolocal: Yo me gusto Beef Jerky very very mucho tambien!
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Youre saying "You like yourself beef jerky very very much also.". study reflexive pronouns & reverse verbs. youre on the right track. A mi tambien Me encanta tanto beef jerky. GG aka Gun Güero
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:51:40 PM EDT
Did the 69/70 rice paddy/ highlands shit. Never had a stoppage on a 16, M60, M2, M79 or anything else. Is there something involving maintenance that is different today?
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 5:49:04 PM EDT
I know that Armorers don't like to fire all their weapons all of the time, so, guess what...their selected, old and beat up, loaned out, blank-firing and much abused rifles that everyone fires are the ones issued out to the un-suspecting rear eschelon soldier, who they think will never use it in combat. And that my friends is the real truth. Did you take a good look at the rag tag weapons they carried...bet you didn't see a one in that piss-poor condition being carried by an infantry soldier, now did you. My son is in Iraq with the 4th ID, he's also in a forward support unit, so God help the son of a bitch that issued him his weapon if it fails to fire for him. Sorry guys but this topic is personal to me.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 6:32:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattel_Gun_Vet: I know that Armorers don't like to fire all their weapons all of the time, so, guess what...their selected, old and beat up, loaned out, blank-firing and much abused rifles that everyone fires are the ones issued out to the un-suspecting rear eschelon soldier, who they think will never use it in combat. And that my friends is the real truth. Did you take a good look at the rag tag weapons they carried...bet you didn't see a one in that piss-poor condition being carried by an infantry soldier, now did you. My son is in Iraq with the 4th ID, he's also in a forward support unit, so God help the son of a bitch that issued him his weapon if it fails to fire for him. Sorry guys but this topic is personal to me.
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Definitely a point to consider. Even at that I suspect proper maintenance was lacking. Semper Fi [marines]
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 6:39:43 PM EDT
An M-14 would have fired under those sandy, dusty conditions, CLP or not. Any lubricant INCLUDING Militec, will attract grit. Some rifles can overcome grit and sand. The M14 is such a rifle. Hell, the M14 would have fired even if they were standing on the charging handle. There's a good reason Randy Shugart (Delta Force, Posthumous MOH)chose an M14 as his weapon of choice when everyone else was using an M16. Don't get me wrong, I love my AR15, and it has it's advantages, but if my life depended on a single rifle under any and all conditions, I would have to go with the M14.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 6:54:10 PM EDT
Yes, I agree. In 66-67, I carried the 14...felt as if we were defrocked, stripped of our weapons when half through our tour, we had to turn them back in for the 16 with a plastic stock and tiny bullets. We thought they seemed like a good ground hog rifle at the time, however, it soon gained the respect of most after seeing the results. At my age now 56, I should probably choose the plastic stock (lighter in weight), but if I had to do it over again, I'd prefer the 14 too....hands down.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:40:55 PM EDT
What about Hoppe's #9 it the only lub I've used in my 8 yrs of shooting and I've never had a problem with my ar15 or pistols. but then again I clean and maitain my weapons. I have never used any other product
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 8:29:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By david10066: What about Hoppe's #9 it the only lub I've used in my 8 yrs of shooting and I've never had a problem with my ar15 or pistols. but then again I clean and maitain my weapons. I have never used any other product
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Too heavy. With hard shooting it creates too much residue. When I got my first AR, a preban Colt I still have, I shot it with Hoppe's and found with heavy use my bolt had enough baked on residue that I couldn't see the finish. Actually never got 100% of it off to this day. I'd use something a little lighter
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