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Posted: 10/9/2011 8:33:57 PM EDT
Looking to build and IDF AR-15 Carbine Clone.

Understand a lot of them have "odd" length barrels like 13 inches or so. Also understand that a lot of these barrels started life as A1 20" barrels, which the Israeli's later shortened. Is this correct?

Do any of the Israeli carbines have "standard" (non converted) 14.5" pencil barrels?

Thank You in advance. All answers/knowledge appreciated!
Link Posted: 10/9/2011 8:57:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OlSarge2K:
Understand a lot of them have "odd" length barrels like 13 inches or so. Also understand that a lot of these barrels started life as A1 20" barrels, which the Israeli's later shortened. Is this correct?

Yes. The "Menusar"
ref: http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/4nGde/IsraeliMenusar.html

These were M16A1s provided as foreign military aid, which were converted into carbines by the Israelis. They cut off the 20" barrels just behind the gas port, rethreaded the muzzle and apparently made a minor profile cut to fit the FSB at the carbine length position. The resulting barrel is roughly 13" long. Carbine handguards and gas tube, along with a telescoping stock completed the transformation into a unique, handy carbine.
Link Posted: 10/9/2011 8:58:54 PM EDT
I think you could throw pretty much anything together and call it an IDF carbine. They're even easier than USAF carbines!
Link Posted: 10/9/2011 9:03:34 PM EDT
I think the only 70's and 80'e-era 14.5" piped carbines they have are actual Model 653's, which they received from the US in addition to the 603's we sent them. Different photos and footage I've seen seem to indicate that the Israelis have all of the different carbine barrel lengths, from 11.5", to 12.5", and 14.5" in both 653's and M4's.

I have a friend who has one of their 11.5" conversions from a 603, complete with Colt carbine handguards and a 2-position aluminum stock with vinyl acetate. I posted pics of recently. It would be a great project to build one of those starting with an 80% lower, and including both the Colt logo, nomenclature, and Israeli Star of David stamps.

Colt Commandos are the go-to service weapons of most of their Light Infantry and Commando units, like most of the rest of the thinking world.
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 4:40:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2011 4:43:18 AM EDT by TexSquirrel]
Actually the katsar is the 14.5" barrel.

But yes, almost anything goes in the IDF.
They only require that it work well.


Top is menusar (cut down)
Middle is katsar (short)
Bottom is standard 14.5" m4
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 7:13:27 AM EDT
Tex,

What's the difference between a katsar and a 653, (other than the Israelis named another foreign invention with one of their words in Hebrew)? Does anyone have a good handle on the FMS schedule that would indicate whether they specifically received 653's, or is it looking like they received upgrade kits to convert 603's into carbines without having to turn-down 20" pipes like with the menusar? They obviously got the Colt Commando handguards and stocks from somewhere, whether it was from existing war stock in Southeast Asia or Central America...or direct from the US, I don't know. The stories some of these guns could tell. This one's stamped specifically for export, from what I'm able to gather, and ended up an 11.5" menusar.







Link Posted: 10/10/2011 11:43:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2011 11:50:09 AM EDT by TexSquirrel]
Katsar is just what the armorers call the short barrel.
Everything gets mixed and matched, so there is no way of knowing the origin of any part on any rifle.
The lowers could be a mixture of Colt 603s, 613s, and 653s, etc.
There are also some c7 and flattop uppers.
You can pretty much put anything together, distress it and have an IDF clone.







I'm no expert on the IDF.
But the four armorers I've talked to have never seen a non-forward assist upper.
They mix and match anything.
They have seen the DOD stamps on older lowers, but none knew what the DOD stamp was until I told them.
The names of the barrels come from three armorers...and it was what was taught to one of them by someone who had been an armorer for a long time.
The only thing I'm certain of is my memory is failing!

Link Posted: 10/10/2011 11:59:44 AM EDT
Those pics just tell me that we need to set up an exchange program with the IDF and trade them two M4 stocks for one aluminum.
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 12:23:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
Katsar is just what the armorers call the short barrel.
Everything gets mixed and matched, so there is no way of knowing the origin of any part on any rifle.
The lowers could be a mixture of Colt 603s, 613s, and 653s, etc.
There are also some c7 and flattop uppers.
You can pretty much put anything together, distress it and have an IDF clone.

http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/IMG_2150.jpg

http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/IMG_2151.jpg

http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/Brandonp_635-3.jpg

I'm no expert on the IDF.
But the four armorers I've talked to have never seen a non-forward assist upper.
They mix and match anything.
They have seen the DOD stamps on older lowers, but none knew what the DOD stamp was until I told them.
The names of the barrels come from three armorers...and it was what was taught to one of them by someone who had been an armorer for a long time.
The only thing I'm certain of is my memory is failing!



Those are nice looking, refinished black?
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 12:23:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2011 12:25:24 PM EDT by xm177e2687]
Originally Posted By Z09SS:
Those pics just tell me that we need to set up an exchange program with the IDF and trade them two M4 stocks for one aluminum.


I believe we already got back some of their stocks, I think thats what sarco was selling. I had one, it was kinda beat up but in pretty decent shape, looked exactly like the stocks in the pictures with the wear mostly on the edge of the buttplate of the stock body
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 12:42:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2011 12:44:54 PM EDT by TexSquirrel]
I don't think they are refinished, just cleaned.
The Israelis won't spend the money to refinish combat rifles just to make them look pretty.
Have you ever refinished a hammer handle?
Replace? Yes
Refinish? Why, it works just fine as-is.
As long as it shoots well they're happy with them.
Remember, they have to always be ready to repell an invasion.
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 1:05:12 PM EDT



Link Posted: 10/10/2011 2:08:08 PM EDT
I'm not going in there!
Drop a CS in there and let them come to us!
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 3:37:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
I'm not going in there!
Drop a CS in there and let them come to us!


I was thinking the same thing...only CS, then frag, then CS...Is that wrong?

Link Posted: 10/10/2011 4:33:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
You can pretty much put anything together, distress it and have an IDF clone.


By 'distress it', Tex means tie it behind your truck and drag it 3 - 4 miles...
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 4:58:09 PM EDT
I'd love to get a skinny 14.5 or 14.7" midlength upper if I don't go the SBR route.
Would give a close-ish approximation of a carbine 12.5" barrel
Link Posted: 10/10/2011 6:11:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By postino:
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
You can pretty much put anything together, distress it and have an IDF clone.


By 'distress it', Tex means tie it behind your truck and drag it 3 - 4 miles...


Actually wire brush mounted on a drill works pretty well.
And you don't have to swerve for road kill.

Link Posted: 10/10/2011 6:25:48 PM EDT
If our military were more like Israel's, we could save money and still keep this country safe. I'm not putting down the professionals who are doing such a great job right now, but really, if Israel can defend themselves against all comers - WTF would we worry about? The Swiss have done pretty well with this concept as well, and frankly, having some people walking around in this country with M16's over their shoulder might not be such a bad thing. Just an idea, that of course would never float, with the bloated budget we pay to the current military industrial complex. Great pics BTW Tex!
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 5:50:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Morg308:
If our military were more like Israel's, we could save money and still keep this country safe. I'm not putting down the professionals who are doing such a great job right now, but really, if Israel can defend themselves against all comers - WTF would we worry about? The Swiss have done pretty well with this concept as well, and frankly, having some people walking around in this country with M16's over their shoulder might not be such a bad thing. Just an idea, that of course would never float, with the bloated budget we pay to the current military industrial complex. Great pics BTW Tex!


Morg,

I agree with you on the one hand, but on the other hand, I did hear an interesting analysis by a CT (academic - PhD. Int'l Relations type, not OMFG CAGSASGRU-type) expert once that gave me pause-

The Israelis are well known for their hardline approach to Islamic terrorism, the kind of "no holds barred" "give no quarter" philosophy of CT that's often considered to be a positive example of a population with an understanding and devotion to CT. Yet, for all their efforts, terrorism in Israel continues, and that the Israeli approach is not the "we should be like them" kind of an example, but a "what doesn't work" illustration. Israel has essentially been dealing with the same problem for sixty years and has never significantly changed their hard line approach or eased up in their CT efforts, yet the same thing has been going on for decades. While they may be constantly protected, it requires a stringent and pervasive force protection posture that is constant, and still bus bombings and suicide attacks continue. The lesson of the Israeli model is that a solely kinetic approach to CT does not stop the terrorists at all.

Granted, it may sound awful hippie-liberal, especially since it comes from an academic, but this was not a statement made by a particularly "hugs and kisses" type of fellow. He was simply saying that the Israeli model does not seem to work. The terrorists may fear Israeli reprisal, but they don't stop.

Back on topic though....

Israeli girls with retro SBRs?

~Augee
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 7:05:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2011 7:06:19 AM EDT by TexSquirrel]
Yes, the Israeli CT strategy doesn't eliminate all terrorist acts in Israel.
I think if Israel adopted our current "let's make our enemy feel good about themselves and become friends with them until they love us" strategy would eliminate all terrorism in Israel.
But only after the destruction of Israel itself because they dropped their guard.

Another picture to keep on topic:


Link Posted: 10/11/2011 7:21:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
Yes, the Israeli CT strategy doesn't eliminate all terrorist acts in Israel.
I think if Israel adopted our current "let's make our enemy feel good about themselves and become friends with them until they love us" strategy would eliminate all terrorism in Israel.
But only after the destruction of Israel itself because they dropped their guard.

Another picture to keep on topic:
http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/Yarzans_rifle.jpg



next time i run into the guy that owns lone star ordnance, i gotta ask him if he exported the grips to israel or if he knows how they got there and how popular they are. what do they keep in the grip?
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 8:54:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
Yes, the Israeli CT strategy doesn't eliminate all terrorist acts in Israel.
I think if Israel adopted our current "let's make our enemy feel good about themselves and become friends with them until they love us" strategy would eliminate all terrorism in Israel.
But only after the destruction of Israel itself because they dropped their guard.

Another picture to keep on topic:
http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/Yarzans_rifle.jpg



Is there something "different" about that bolt release, or is it just the photo? Looks odd to me.

Nice dimpled takedown pin.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 9:10:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
Yes, the Israeli CT strategy doesn't eliminate all terrorist acts in Israel.
I think if Israel adopted our current "let's make our enemy feel good about themselves and become friends with them until they love us" strategy would eliminate all terrorism in Israel.
But only after the destruction of Israel itself because they dropped their guard.

Another picture to keep on topic:
http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/Yarzans_rifle.jpg



next time i run into the guy that owns lone star ordnance, i gotta ask him if he exported the grips to israel or if he knows how they got there and how popular they are. what do they keep in the grip?


Link Posted: 10/11/2011 9:11:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
I don't think they are refinished, just cleaned.
The Israelis won't spend the money to refinish combat rifles just to make them look pretty.
Have you ever refinished a hammer handle?
Replace? Yes
Refinish? Why, it works just fine as-is.
As long as it shoots well they're happy with them.
Remember, they have to always be ready to repell an invasion.


They do look awfully black to have never been refinished. Maybe Israel refinished them black when they first imported them?
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 9:56:04 AM EDT
There was an IDF soldier who posted a photo of his rifle in one of the AR Discussions picture threads a while back. I hope I can remember which one it was.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 10:15:03 AM EDT
Based on what I've seen the IDF rifles seem to have mostly started out as 603s and 653s.

Obviously there's a lot of photographic evidence of "stock" 603s with both triangle and A2 handguards out there. All of the lowers I've seen have either been U.S. PROP marked M16A1s or commercial / export marked M16A1s in the "late" style (like the picture LRRPF52 posted) that were "factory" for the R653.

Spare parts like stocks and barrels have never been hard to get from Colt if you're a foreign military seeking to buy components to upgrade your existing systems. The IDF doesn't seem too terribly concerned about about matching period parts so you'll see replacements of whatever Colt has in stock - i.e. M4 stocks replacing the old vinyl acetate stocks and M4 double heat shield handguards replacing CAR handguards.

I've yet to see any non-forward assist uppers used by the IDF on any barrel length, pretty much almost exclusively A1 uppers and flattops. C7 uppers were also USGI replacement M16A1 uppers for a while so would have come with USGI M16A1s. Also, in the late 70s / early 80s a lot of M16A1s were arsenal refinished in flat black - most likely the 603s delivered to the IDF were more or less randomly taken from stores of M16A1s that had just been through depot, meaning they'd've been refinished and C7 uppers could be present as USGI M16A1 replacement uppers.

While it's true that basically any combination of parts probably exist or have existed in the IDF inventory at some point in time, there are a couple of configurations that I would venture to say are somewhat "archetypal" of IDF rifles:

- USGI M16A1 configuration with either A1 or A2 handguards
- Stock R653s
- Stock R639s (no moderator)
- R653 lowers with vinyl acetate stock and 14.5" M4 uppers with either CAR or M4 handguards
- U.S. Prop marked M16A1 lowers with M4 stocks and handguards and Menusar barrels

Again, lots of room for mix and match variety there, but in a "general" sense, it fits with the program:

M16A1s issued "as is."

Katusars issued "as is," at some point in their liftimes though, since the Israelis like optics as much as any modern fighting force, some get flattop uppers and/or 14.5" M4 barrels - the newest replacements.

To fulfill a need for more carbine configurations, M16A1s are refurbished - have the barrels cut down as Menusars - handguards replaced with newly purchased M4 handguards and new stock assemblies in the M4 pattern.

Again, I'm not saying this is the hard and fast rule, but it seems to be the "general" state of affairs based on the documentation available.

~Augee
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 11:48:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2011 11:49:47 AM EDT by TexSquirrel]
I agree with Augee's post.
No hard and fast rules, but general expectations are "correct."

A few more pictures:










Link Posted: 10/11/2011 11:50:35 AM EDT
...one more...The prototype for the CornerShot.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 12:02:26 PM EDT
Lone Stars are retro?





I just got that grip from Fulton because of Yarzan's pic. It feels odd after getting so accustomed to the A1 grips.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 12:20:51 PM EDT
I don't know about it being "retro", but it IS unique.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 3:10:16 PM EDT
Those Lone Star grips are my favorite of all.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 4:24:59 PM EDT
LSO made the stowaway and stowaway 2 grips, basically with and without the finger bump.

notice how they use a lot of CAA parts too.
Link Posted: 10/11/2011 8:06:03 PM EDT
The inspiration for many an IDF build. Well, it inspired mine.

Link Posted: 10/11/2011 8:21:12 PM EDT
Willmar,
Yeah, that's a beautiful carbine.
Can't beat a well worn C7 upper and and nice full fence A1 lower.
Ahhhh...
Link Posted: 10/12/2011 5:22:47 AM EDT
What carbine?

~Augee
Link Posted: 10/12/2011 6:10:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
What carbine?

~Augee


Right there in front of the fence!

Link Posted: 10/12/2011 6:44:34 AM EDT
rethinking my stance on tattos...
Link Posted: 10/12/2011 6:48:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2011 6:49:02 AM EDT by Augee]
Nope. Still not seeing it. Sure wish I could get rid of that silly black and gray thing blocking my view though.

~Augee
Link Posted: 10/12/2011 6:48:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexSquirrel:
...one more...The prototype for the CornerShot.
http://pullig.dyndns.org/pics/weapons/IDF/m4brokenuy1.jpg


Anyone know the story behind this? Is it just bad photo shop editing or is the barrel really that bent? Also - is it just my elderly eyes or is the flashhider also tweeked?

Link Posted: 10/12/2011 7:22:08 AM EDT
It is really that bent.
Link Posted: 10/12/2011 8:22:49 PM EDT
Thank you all. The information and clarification really helped. Hope to post my IDF clone soon.
Link Posted: 10/13/2011 5:10:04 AM EDT
I think the story was that when he exfil’ed his vehicle he landed wrong and the carbine barrel was bent.
Not being there when the picture was taken I can’t confirm or deny.
Link Posted: 10/17/2011 2:30:43 AM EDT
I showed that pic to a buddy who happens to be Jewish, his response was, "What's a nice Jewish girl doing getting tattoos?"

He said they're not supposed to.
Link Posted: 10/17/2011 6:20:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Z09SS:
I showed that pic to a buddy who happens to be Jewish, his response was, "What's a nice Jewish girl doing getting tattoos?"

He said they're not supposed to.


Without getting into the whole religious thing - there's a lot of things more orthodox practicers of any religion are "not supposed to do" that less strict practitioners do not.

Agree or disagree, FWIW, I know plenty of Jews with tattoos.

~Augee
Link Posted: 10/17/2011 5:45:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Based on what I've seen the IDF rifles seem to have mostly started out as 603s and 653s.

Obviously there's a lot of photographic evidence of "stock" 603s with both triangle and A2 handguards out there. All of the lowers I've seen have either been U.S. PROP marked M16A1s or commercial / export marked M16A1s in the "late" style (like the picture LRRPF52 posted) that were "factory" for the R653.

Spare parts like stocks and barrels have never been hard to get from Colt if you're a foreign military seeking to buy components to upgrade your existing systems. The IDF doesn't seem too terribly concerned about about matching period parts so you'll see replacements of whatever Colt has in stock - i.e. M4 stocks replacing the old vinyl acetate stocks and M4 double heat shield handguards replacing CAR handguards.

I've yet to see any non-forward assist uppers used by the IDF on any barrel length, pretty much almost exclusively A1 uppers and flattops. C7 uppers were also USGI replacement M16A1 uppers for a while so would have come with USGI M16A1s. Also, in the late 70s / early 80s a lot of M16A1s were arsenal refinished in flat black - most likely the 603s delivered to the IDF were more or less randomly taken from stores of M16A1s that had just been through depot, meaning they'd've been refinished and C7 uppers could be present as USGI M16A1 replacement uppers.

While it's true that basically any combination of parts probably exist or have existed in the IDF inventory at some point in time, there are a couple of configurations that I would venture to say are somewhat "archetypal" of IDF rifles:

- USGI M16A1 configuration with either A1 or A2 handguards
- Stock R653s
- Stock R639s (no moderator)
- R653 lowers with vinyl acetate stock and 14.5" M4 uppers with either CAR or M4 handguards
- U.S. Prop marked M16A1 lowers with M4 stocks and handguards and Menusar barrels

Again, lots of room for mix and match variety there, but in a "general" sense, it fits with the program:

M16A1s issued "as is."

Katusars issued "as is," at some point in their liftimes though, since the Israelis like optics as much as any modern fighting force, some get flattop uppers and/or 14.5" M4 barrels - the newest replacements.

To fulfill a need for more carbine configurations, M16A1s are refurbished - have the barrels cut down as Menusars - handguards replaced with newly purchased M4 handguards and new stock assemblies in the M4 pattern.

Again, I'm not saying this is the hard and fast rule, but it seems to be the "general" state of affairs based on the documentation available.

~Augee


This info is amazing.

+1

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