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Posted: 6/18/2014 1:14:24 PM EDT
I bought a stripped lower from a buddy of mine a few months back. He had planned on building a rifle with but never did. It is a virgin lower and the first part has not been installed yet. I don't know what was written on the 4473 when he picked it up but I could probably find out. Would it matter either way?
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 1:29:51 PM EDT
Should have been 4473'd as "Other." So long as it was not made into a rifle (or transferred as rifle), it may be made into a pistol.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 1:39:20 PM EDT
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 1:57:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By X-CaptHook:
Should have been 4473'd as "Other." So long as it was not made into a rifle (or transferred as rifle), it may be made into a pistol.
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Everybody "says" that, but it just ain't so.

Doesn't matter ultimately what it was transferred as, if indeed it was a virgin lower. Neither mistaken or even correct notation by FFL changes the legal classification of a firearm, or what it can legally be configured as.

- OS
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 2:42:45 PM EDT
Thanks for the info guys. Out of curiosity, I may check and see what it was listed as. The FFL that the lower was originally shipped to is a good friend of mine.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 2:53:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DUH556:
Thanks for the info guys. Out of curiosity, I may check and see what it was listed as. The FFL that the lower was originally shipped to is a good friend of mine.
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Polishing brass on the Titanic but if it makes you sleep better...
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 2:57:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 2:59:07 PM EDT by AR45fan]
So, if a person was to turn a rifle into a pistol and plopped a pistol / SBR upper on it and somehow got "caught" what would the crime be? Illegal SBR? That severe? Once a rifle, always a rifle regardless of the shoulder thingy installed on it? Or is there a law about turning a rifle into a pistol?

Question didn't sound as dumb in my head....
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:15:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 3:16:01 PM EDT by DWood]
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:24:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DWood:
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
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Please read the OP...
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 3:28:38 PM EDT by DWood]
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Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Please read the OP...
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Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
Please read the OP...


Please read the question from AR45fan in the post above my response.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:29:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 3:32:44 PM EDT by OhShoot]
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Originally Posted By AR45fan:
So, if a person was to turn a rifle into a pistol and plopped a pistol / SBR upper on it and somehow got "caught" what would the crime be? Illegal SBR? That severe? Once a rifle, always a rifle regardless of the shoulder thingy installed on it? Or is there a law about turning a rifle into a pistol?

Question didn't sound as dumb in my head....
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I believe the actual charge in words, aside from the appropriate cite of exact USC or CFR, would be "making an illegal firearm from a rifle" or "possession" of same. Or hell, maybe both.

- OS
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:36:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DWood:


Please read the question from AR45fan in the post above my response.
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Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
Please read the OP...


Please read the question from AR45fan in the post above my response.
It would have helped if you had quoted to whom you were responding...
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 3:46:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
It would have helped if you had quoted to whom you were responding...
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Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
Please read the OP...


Please read the question from AR45fan in the post above my response.
It would have helped if you had quoted to whom you were responding...


Then why would you assume it was directed to the OP when I answered him previously that his lower was good to build as a pistol? It is called a "thread" for a reason. Follow it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 4:20:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DWood:


Then why would you assume it was directed to the OP when I answered him previously that his lower was good to build as a pistol? It is called a "thread" for a reason. Follow it.
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Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
Originally Posted By DWood:
If a virgin lower was built first as a rifle, it can not have a barreled upper less than 16" without the SBR paperwork, approval, and tax stamp.
Please read the OP...


Please read the question from AR45fan in the post above my response.
It would have helped if you had quoted to whom you were responding...


Then why would you assume it was directed to the OP when I answered him previously that his lower was good to build as a pistol? It is called a "thread" for a reason. Follow it.
Quote it...
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 4:22:11 PM EDT
Let it go...............
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 5:47:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 5:48:34 PM EDT by CashOutlaw]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DWood:
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.
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How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?

Link Posted: 6/18/2014 5:59:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:



How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?

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Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:
Originally Posted By DWood:
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.



How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?



That is the law and your question shows how ridiculous it is. Buy a virgin lower and you can build it into a pisol or rifle. Make a pistol first, and you can legally go back and forth between pistol and rifle. Make it a rifle first and you can't put a barreled upper less than 16" on it without the SBR stamp. What you build first is not documented, SO no one can prove what you built first.

Make sure you can prove that you purchased a virgin lower, and that you own a pistol upper, and someone else will have to prove you didn't put the pistol upper on first. Of course, there is no way for them to do that.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 6:21:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 6:30:34 PM EDT by OhShoot]
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Originally Posted By DWood:


That is the law and your question shows how ridiculous it is. Buy a virgin lower and you can build it into a pisol or rifle. Make a pistol first, and you can legally go back and forth between pistol and rifle. Make it a rifle first and you can't put a barreled upper less than 16" on it without the SBR stamp. What you build first is not documented, SO no one can prove what you built first.

Make sure you can prove that you purchased a virgin lower, and that you own a pistol upper, and someone else will have to prove you didn't put the pistol upper on first. Of course, there is no way for them to do that.
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Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:
Originally Posted By DWood:
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.



How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?



That is the law and your question shows how ridiculous it is. Buy a virgin lower and you can build it into a pisol or rifle. Make a pistol first, and you can legally go back and forth between pistol and rifle. Make it a rifle first and you can't put a barreled upper less than 16" on it without the SBR stamp. What you build first is not documented, SO no one can prove what you built first.

Make sure you can prove that you purchased a virgin lower, and that you own a pistol upper, and someone else will have to prove you didn't put the pistol upper on first. Of course, there is no way for them to do that.


However remote any gotcha is, the most obvious one is buying a used lower, unless you somehow absolutely know its history. Even done through FFL, he would still mark it as "other firearm" and "receiver", but it would still be illegal to make a pistol from it if it had begun life as a rifle, and easily determined if it initially left a retailer that way.

Just one of the examples of how what's on a 4473, while it might be of interest, is not the actual legal determination for the firearm.

- OS
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 6:44:15 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies, I've been wondering about this question for awhile.

Link Posted: 6/18/2014 7:00:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:


However remote any gotcha is, the most obvious one is buying a used lower, unless you somehow absolutely know its history. Even done through FFL, he would still mark it as "other firearm" and "receiver", but it would still be illegal to make a pistol from it if it had begun life as a rifle, and easily determined if it initially left a retailer that way.

Just one of the examples of how what's on a 4473, while it might be of interest, is not the actual legal determination for the firearm.

- OS
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:
Originally Posted By DWood:
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.



How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?



That is the law and your question shows how ridiculous it is. Buy a virgin lower and you can build it into a pisol or rifle. Make a pistol first, and you can legally go back and forth between pistol and rifle. Make it a rifle first and you can't put a barreled upper less than 16" on it without the SBR stamp. What you build first is not documented, SO no one can prove what you built first.

Make sure you can prove that you purchased a virgin lower, and that you own a pistol upper, and someone else will have to prove you didn't put the pistol upper on first. Of course, there is no way for them to do that.


However remote any gotcha is, the most obvious one is buying a used lower, unless you somehow absolutely know its history. Even done through FFL, he would still mark it as "other firearm" and "receiver", but it would still be illegal to make a pistol from it if it had begun life as a rifle, and easily determined if it initially left a retailer that way.

Just one of the examples of how what's on a 4473, while it might be of interest, is not the actual legal determination for the firearm.

- OS


That is one reason I thought about checking to see what they listed it as. If I had bought this stripped lower from someone I did not know, there is no way I would even think about building a pistol. I know mine is a true virgin lower because if it had been built into a rifle, I would have been the one that did the work for him. No one else works on his rifles but me.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 7:13:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DUH556:


That is one reason I thought about checking to see what they listed it as. If I had bought this stripped lower from someone I did not know, there is no way I would even think about building a pistol. I know mine is a true virgin lower because if it had been built into a rifle, I would have been the one that did the work for him. No one else works on his rifles but me.
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Originally Posted By DUH556:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:
Originally Posted By DWood:
It is good for a pistol build as long as it was never built as a rifle. It should have been transferred as "other" but even if it wasn't, you are OK for the pistol build. That's a recording issue for the FFL.



How would they know it was built into a rifle then switched into a pistol?



That is the law and your question shows how ridiculous it is. Buy a virgin lower and you can build it into a pisol or rifle. Make a pistol first, and you can legally go back and forth between pistol and rifle. Make it a rifle first and you can't put a barreled upper less than 16" on it without the SBR stamp. What you build first is not documented, SO no one can prove what you built first.

Make sure you can prove that you purchased a virgin lower, and that you own a pistol upper, and someone else will have to prove you didn't put the pistol upper on first. Of course, there is no way for them to do that.


However remote any gotcha is, the most obvious one is buying a used lower, unless you somehow absolutely know its history. Even done through FFL, he would still mark it as "other firearm" and "receiver", but it would still be illegal to make a pistol from it if it had begun life as a rifle, and easily determined if it initially left a retailer that way.

Just one of the examples of how what's on a 4473, while it might be of interest, is not the actual legal determination for the firearm.

- OS


That is one reason I thought about checking to see what they listed it as. If I had bought this stripped lower from someone I did not know, there is no way I would even think about building a pistol. I know mine is a true virgin lower because if it had been built into a rifle, I would have been the one that did the work for him. No one else works on his rifles but me.


Then there's no reason to really care what the FFL put down. Of course he should have checked "other firearm" on question 18, but there are still some dumbass dealers out there. But on the other hand, he has to write in what it is under field 29, and he'd have to be outright lying for some reason to put anything there but "receiver" or "AR lower" or similar.

But again, what he put down is ultimately immaterial anyway, if you're sure of its lineage.

- OS
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 3:44:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2014 3:47:03 AM EDT by DUH556]
For kicks and giggles, I sent my FFL buddy a text last night and asked him about it. He said he always lists them as "other". The info here has helped a lot. I have been throwing around the idea of buiding an AR pistol for a little while since I have been seeing the arm brace being used and I just wanted to make sure I cover all the bases from a legal stand point because i am not big enough to play chase in a prison shower

Link Posted: 6/19/2014 5:18:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2014 5:23:57 AM EDT by DWood]
That's what all FFLs are supposed to put in the answer to Question 18 and, as OP pointed out, write a descriptive term in 29. He did it correctly.

Open Letter To FFLs 2009
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