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Posted: 10/11/2004 6:36:42 AM EST
OK, follow me here.

I bought a 16" M4 barreled LMT upper because I wanted to be able to remove the front sight to install a rail if I wanted one. This barrel plus the A2 FS makes it awefully long (both practically and aesthetically).

Now I've come to like the Troy MRF series of rails, so taking the FS and FSB off aren't a big deal to me.

But, I'm also thinking of going with the 9" rail to have a little more real estate and to get more coverage of the barrel. If I do this with a standard M4 barrel I'll need a flip up rail mount front and I'll have to shave the front sight. At which point being able to remove the FSB won't matter again because the rail can be installed over it.

Giffman is selling 1:7 midlength barrels (which I'm guessing will weigh about what an M4 weighs), so I could use that and keep the standard FSB. I wouldn't be able to shorten it though unless I go back to the MRF. Or I suppose I could cut it to 14.5", still shave the front and go to the flipup, which would allow me to install and remove whatever rail I want.

Either way, I'd love to have a 14.5" barrel with the Gemtech Bilock permanently attached, but I still want to be able to get the damn rail on and off if I want to. something tells me it's kind of silly to go through all of the SBR paperwork (not to mention the $200) just to be able to do this.

Anybody have a pic of a 14.5" barrel with permanent FS and a 9" rail? I don't care if it's a midlength gas system with a standard FSB, or if you've shaved the FSB and put on a flipup front. In fact I'd like to see both.

Shit, this post was supposed to help me work through all this nonsense.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 6:53:40 AM EST
So why dont you use the 14.5" barrel with Bilock and use the extneded 7" rail from Troy? THen you can have rails everywhere except the FSB. You will be 9" on the bottom and sides, can remove the rail and have the shortest and lightest overall packa not to metion it will be more rugged and reliable than the 9" with flip up front sight.

My question is this... why do you need more rail space than the regular 7" provides? There is room for a light, vertical fore grip, laser and whatever else you might want. What exactly will you use the extra rail space for? I have never understood the need for rails longer than the standard carbine length. To me its just dead weight.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:21:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
So why dont you use the 14.5" barrel with Bilock and use the extneded 7" rail from Troy? THen you can have rails everywhere except the FSB. You will be 9" on the bottom and sides, can remove the rail and have the shortest and lightest overall packa not to metion it will be more rugged and reliable than the 9" with flip up front sight.


I've thought of that, but truthfully I just hate the way those rails look. I know it's a silly reason, but it's my rifle and I can have whatever reason I want.



My question is this... why do you need more rail space than the regular 7" provides? There is room for a light, vertical fore grip, laser and whatever else you might want. What exactly will you use the extra rail space for? I have never understood the need for rails longer than the standard carbine length. To me its just dead weight.



A couple of reasons. One is that when shooting from prone I like to have my left hand a little further forward if I'm using it to support the rifle. I have long arms and it's what works for me. The other is that I like to have more of the hot-ass barrel coverec when transitioning to a sidearm and letting that barrel slap against my leg.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:29:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By DevL:
So why dont you use the 14.5" barrel with Bilock and use the extneded 7" rail from Troy? THen you can have rails everywhere except the FSB. You will be 9" on the bottom and sides, can remove the rail and have the shortest and lightest overall packa not to metion it will be more rugged and reliable than the 9" with flip up front sight.


I've thought of that, but truthfully I just hate the way those rails look. I know it's a silly reason, but it's my rifle and I can have whatever reason I want.



My question is this... why do you need more rail space than the regular 7" provides? There is room for a light, vertical fore grip, laser and whatever else you might want. What exactly will you use the extra rail space for? I have never understood the need for rails longer than the standard carbine length. To me its just dead weight.



A couple of reasons. One is that when shooting from prone I like to have my left hand a little further forward if I'm using it to support the rifle. I have long arms and it's what works for me. The other is that I like to have more of the hot-ass barrel coverec when transitioning to a sidearm and letting that barrel slap against my leg.



That last one is the best reason yet. My 14.5" M4/Bilock/MRE came to be partly because of the burn scar I have on my left thigh from a transition drill with a SMOKING hot weapon.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:33:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
That last one is the best reason yet. My 14.5" M4/Bilock/MRE came to be partly because of the burn scar I have on my left thigh from a transition drill with a SMOKING hot weapon.



Funny how you have to learn the hardway to understand that huh? I have a nice mark on my leg from the comp on my FAL slinging into me.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:39:16 AM EST
I think I get what you're saying. You want a 16" barrel with a carbine gas system and mid-length handguards covering the entire gas system (Recce style).
As long as you can get your gas block underneath your handguards, you're set. If you don't want to dremel your existing fixed front sight, check this out. YHM Low Profile Gas Block
After that you can just mount your mid-length rail and the low-height flip up sight on top of the rail. Hopefully that answers your question.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:49:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 8:52:33 AM EST by Yojimbo]
Norm,

Now you know why I switched to the FF-RAS MRE, shorts and weapon transitions, it can be a painful learning experience...

Personally, I would keep the 16" barrel and replace the A2 FSB with a PRI low profile gas block and use a MRF-MX on it with Troy flip up front BUIS. The the MRF-MX is a 10" fore end that goes past where the FSB would be on a mid-length. I believe this setup will give you enough rail space for the forward grip you prefer in the prone and cover enough of the barrel to protect against burns and as well as look good on the 16" barrel.

It would look kind of like this...


I figure this way you keep the extra velocity the 16" barrel gives you while saving the hassle of getting a SBR permit. Also, though you will be spending a bit to switch out the FSB and get PRI low profile gas block installed you will not have to buy another barrel and still maintain the ability to remove the bottom half of you rail system for cleaning.

On my next build I'm going to with one of giffman's 16", 1-7 mid-length barrels and probably a DD 9.0 rail or the Troy MRF-M(9"). Actually I'm still looking at the different rails and waiting to see if someone(Larue) comes out with a new mid-length rail in a by the time the barrels are ready for delivery...
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:59:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Norm,

Now you know why I switched to the FF-RAS MRE, shorts and weapon transitions, it can be a painful learning experience...

Personally, I would keep the 16" barrel and replace the A2 FSB with a PRI low profile gas block and use a MRF-MX on it with Troy flip up front BUIS. The the MRF-MX is a 10" fore end that goes past where the FSB would be on a mid-length. I believe this setup will give you enough rail space for the forward grip you prefer in the prone and cover enough of the barrel to protect against burns and as well as look good on the 16" barrel.

It would look kind of like this...
www.troyind.com/Finished/10inch%20Mid-Legnth.jpg

I figure this way you keep the extra velocity the 16" barrel gives you while saving the hassle of getting a SBR permit. Also, though you will be spending a bit to switch out the FSB and get PRI low profile gas block installed you will not have to buy another barrel and still maintain the ability to remove the bottom half of you rail system for cleaning.

On my next build I'm going to with one of giffman's 16", 1-7 mid-length barrels and probably a DD 9.0 rail or the Troy MRF-M(9"). Actually I'm still looking at the different rails and waiting to see if someone(Larue) comes out with a new mid-length rail in a by the time the barrels are ready for delivery...



That picture is more or less what I'm imagining, only I'd like to have the 14.5" barrel because it's less exposed hot metal, and it's a more compact package. While intellectually I know that the added 1.5" of barrel length will be a good thing, I also have to wonder just how often I'll need to take advantage of that added velocity while hunting carboard and steel.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:16:11 AM EST
Ok, who stole my barrel ?!
[ link to LARGER image ]
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:17:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 9:19:46 AM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By norman74:


That picture is more or less what I'm imagining, only I'd like to have the 14.5" barrel because it's less exposed hot metal, and it's a more compact package. While intellectually I know that the added 1.5" of barrel length will be a good thing, I also have to wonder just how often I'll need to take advantage of that added velocity while hunting carboard and steel.



Another reason to leave it at 16" is because you already have it. Why mess with cutting it or buying a new barrel? I guess the way I see it, it's simpler to keep it 16". Though if a 14.5" barrel is what you want then go for it! It is your carbine and you wanting it a certain way is good enough reason for me...
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 3:56:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 3:58:40 PM EST by norman74]
Thanks guys, I'm trying to work through the logic on this without dumping too many thousands of dollars.

I guess I'm kind of leaning towards the 14.5" barrel with the shaved FSB and the flipup front. Unfortunately that's going to be even more expensive, because I'm going to have to buy an extra $120 flipup front sight. I'll also have to get rid of the upper I have now, but that may not be a bad thing. I'm actually not fond of the T-numbers on the upper now that I have it, nor do I like the LMT logo on the side.

The other issue with the barrel length is that if I add the bilock it's even longer than the A2 FS. I already don't like the overall length now, let alone another 1/2" more.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get rid of this upper and the postban upper I have and wind up with enough total cash to build what I want. Gee, isn't this fun?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:05:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 7:07:50 AM EST by norman74]
Well, now I've done a little more digging, and even with a shaved front sight base I'll still need to remove it to install most of the floated front rails that screw on.

So, I guess I'm back to the MRF. Not a bit deal really, I'll just buy the MRF-MX and install it right over the shaved FSB.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:03:17 AM EST

Told ya so...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:30:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Told ya so...



But I still need a 14.5" barrel

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to buy another LMT to get it
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:38:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Told ya so...



But I still need a 14.5" barrel

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to buy another LMT to get it



You don't have to buy another complete upper. C4iGrant sells LMT 14.5" and 16" barrels w/FSB seperately.

gandrtactical.com/lmt_files/lmtm4.htm

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:39:23 AM EST
Norm,

Assuming you haven't fired the upper yet, can't you just ask the dealer you got from to exchange it with 14.5" model?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:52:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
You don't have to buy another complete upper. C4iGrant sells LMT 14.5" and 16" barrels w/FSB seperately.

gandrtactical.com/lmt_files/lmtm4.htm




out of stock :(
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:52:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Norm,

Assuming you haven't fired the upper yet, can't you just ask the dealer you got from to exchange it with 14.5" model?



I'm not sure, possibly. I'll have to call them & check. I have to make sure they can ship to Gemtech for the bilock though so I'm not holding onto a 14.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:01:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
But I still need a 14.5" barrel

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to buy another LMT to get it



CMMG, Colt.

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:46:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:46:48 AM EST by norman74]

Originally Posted By Feedingcannibal:

Originally Posted By norman74:
But I still need a 14.5" barrel

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to buy another LMT to get it



CMMG, Colt.




Hmm, CMMG seems promising.
14.5" M4 barrel for $225, chrome lined, 4150, 1:7

Stick that with a Bravocompany unmarked M4 upper for $90

and I'd have me a complete upper for $315 as opposed to $415 for the LMT. No T-markings, no silly looking LMT logo.....

I would prefer that a 'smith assemble the whole thing though. I wonder how much that would cost me....
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 10:50:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:51:48 AM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By norman74:


I would prefer that a 'smith assemble the whole thing though. I wonder how much that would cost me....



Hell, just take it over to new_arguy's place and give hime a few beers in payment... You could probably use his tools and do it yourself and make a learning experience out of it too.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:01:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By norman74:


I would prefer that a 'smith assemble the whole thing though. I wonder how much that would cost me....



Hell, just take it over to new_arguy's place and give hime a few beers in payment... You could probably use his tools and do it yourself and make a learning experience out of it too.



It would probably cost me over $100 in gas these days just to get there and back.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:03:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 11:04:01 AM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By norman74:

It would probably cost me over $100 in gas these days just to get there and back.



Doh! I thought you guys lived in the same town, nevermind...

How about just getting a 14.5" barreled upper from CMMG?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:03:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By norman74:

It would probably cost me over $100 in gas these days just to get there and back.



Doh! I thought you guys lived in the same town, nevermind...

How about just getting a 14.5" barreled upper from CMMG?



I see a promising ono on their site. I wonder how much they'll customize, or if they'll attach the bilock for me.....

So many options! The only good/bad news is that the MRF-MX doesn't appear to be available right now, thereby limiting my spending options.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:36:07 PM EST
No.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:59:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By fuzzywuz:
No.



you're still here?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:18:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 3:21:27 PM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By norman74:

I see a promising ono on their site. I wonder how much they'll customize, or if they'll attach the bilock for me.....

So many options! The only good/bad news is that the MRF-MX doesn't appear to be available right now, thereby limiting my spending options.



I'd ask CMMG if they are willing to custom build you an upper. I'm sure they'll be able to do something for as they offer A1 customer service!

Another option is to go with a longer but lighter 12" tubular railed fore end like the Daniel Defense model. This will give extra gripping space, barrel coverage and longer sight radius for irons. You loose the abillity to remove the bottom but it will lighter than the MRF-MX.

Checkout Capn_Crunch's sweet 14.5" carbine.

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:19:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 3:21:02 PM EST by Yojimbo]
Ooops double tap...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:28:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By norman74:

I see a promising ono on their site. I wonder how much they'll customize, or if they'll attach the bilock for me.....

So many options! The only good/bad news is that the MRF-MX doesn't appear to be available right now, thereby limiting my spending options.



I'd ask CMMG if they are willing to custom build you an upper. I'm sure they'll be able to do something for as they offer A1 customer service!

Another option is to go with a longer but lighter 12" tubular railed fore end like the Daniel Defense model. This will give extra gripping space, barrel coverage and longer sight radius for irons. You loose the abillity to remove the bottom but it will lighter than the MRF-MX.

Checkout Capn_Crunch's sweet 14.5" carbine.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/giffmann1/DDGUN.jpg



If I can ever get hiperform to answer their email, you're going to love my other project

I dropped Adco a post in their forum 'cause I know they stock alot of Troy gear. I might have to do the same with CMMG.

Is a 12" DD really lighter than a 10" MRF?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:41:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 4:47:26 AM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By norman74:


If I can ever get hiperform to answer their email, you're going to love my other project

I dropped Adco a post in their forum 'cause I know they stock alot of Troy gear. I might have to do the same with CMMG.

Is a 12" DD really lighter than a 10" MRF?



Yes, the 12" DD is lighter than the MRF-MX. The MRF-CX is about 17.5oz and it has a lot less metal than the MRF-MX. The the 12" DD rail weighs in at 13.1oz!

This info is from the chart rail that Eric from ADCO made, it's posted on the "FAQ: The Big Thread On FF & Railed Forends" on the Uppers, Lowers, Barrels forum.

All the extra weight is the only thing I don't like about the MRF's...

So, what's this other project...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:43:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 3:46:38 PM EST by norman74]
Damnit man, why do you have to confuse the matter so much!!!

ETA
The good news is I can get the 12" DD for $275, which is only $5 more than the Troy.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:00:39 AM EST
Barreling an upper is really not difficult, but you will need a receiver vice and a barrel wrench, which will add about $50 (but you'll have them for future builds!). On the other hand, CMMG are good guys and I'd be quite surprised if they could not accomodate your requests.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:55:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Yes, the 12" DD is lighter than the MRF-MX. The MRF-CX is about 17.5oz and it has a lot less metal than the MRF-MX. The the 12" DD rail weighs in at 13.1oz!

This info is from the chart rail that Eric from ADCO made, it's posted on the "FAQ: The Big Thread On FF & Railed Forends" on the Uppers, Lowers, Barrels forum.

All the extra weight is the only thing I don't like about the MRF's...

So, what's this other project...



If I'm going to go through all of that....
What's the weight on the 12" Larue?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:38:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

If I'm going to go through all of that....
What's the weight on the 12" Larue?



It's not listed on the ADCO's chart, though I think someone mentioned in some other thread which I can't recall...

IIRC, it was tiny bit heavier than the DD because the LaRue has a steel barrel nut while the DD has an aluminum one. I'll do some looking and see if I find the weight...
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:00:55 AM EST
By request, my M4MRE without the can mounted (before I painted it).
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