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Posted: 10/22/2004 12:23:18 PM EST
I am looking for some cheap training ammo to burn through my AR. Wolf seems to fit the bill for both price and reliability. Accuracay is not of paramount importance and neither is flawless function. My only concern though is the cumulative effects of buring a case or two of steel cased, polymer coated wolf through my rifle. Will this cause excessive wear or any residual buildup of polymer in the chamber that could affect funtion down the road?
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:32:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:35:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 2:38:12 PM EST by AndrewB]
I've started to believe that it may put more stress on your rifle then brass cased ammo, simply because the steel cases expand differently and AR-15s and such were designed to be used with brass-cased ammo.

I would imagine that the most noticeable effect (if any) would be faster extractor wear.

I've only had one malfunction with Wolf ammo, and it was using the older laquered stuff. The case stuck hard in my chamber and the rim was ripped off. Other than that, over 2k rounds with no other issues.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:23:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By gvidon212:Is there any Risk to Using New Wolf in my SHTF Rifle



SHTF rifles should not be the rifle you put most of the daily stress and wear on. If it breaks and the SHTF tonight are you good to go or up a creek? It's a matter of risk. It would be wise to have a spare rifle and/or enough spare parts to rebuild the one you have no matter what.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:32:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:34:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 3:34:41 PM EST by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:35:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If you can't abuse your SHTF rifle, how do you know it will work if the S were to HTF? I'm using the word "abuse" in the sense of not babying your rifle.



Then you should say, “SHTF reliability test.” Mostly that will be a weapon “design” test which the AR15/M16 already meets using M193 and M855 ammunition. Once those rifles pass the tests they are pretty worn out though.

For your personal AR maybe 500-1000 rounds is sufficient, plus whatever magazines you want to test. These personal tests should be done with milspec ammo to be accurate. Who knows what happens down the line when you use a different breed of ammo? Cheap steel case ammo has not be subjected to military trials in ARs and appears to vary lot to lot. Why risk damage to a rifle you will stake your life on?

AR15s wear just like any other firearm and parts can break unexpectantly. Metals get stressed with use, and flaws eventually work their way to the top. Everything eventually wears out or breaks. You might get through 10-15 thousand rounds without a problem if you use milspec ammo and practice like you are in combat. If you only do leisurely range shoots you might fire two or three times that before something breaks.

Some IPSC shooters keep two pistols and rotate them. The older one gets most of the use during practice sessions during the week, but on match day the new one comes out for the match. That’s an example of risk management. The pistol with the most metal fatigue and greater chance of failure takes the day off. Once the newer pistol gets to a certain wear/use/number of rounds, it becomes the practice pistol. A new pistol is purchased to take its place for matches and is fully tested for reliability. Then the old practice pistol hits the junk pile or gun show table. If you put a lot of rounds through your AR or abuse it on a regular basis the same practice has some merit.

We don’t know how much extra wear Wolf does yet. It’s a mystery. But some people are having major bad days with it. Maybe a thousand rounds of steel casings cause the same about of wear as ten thousand rounds of brass. There still has to be a lot of rounds fired before anything will show up. The same goes for extractors. Maybe a flaw that takes fifteen thousand rounds of M193 bump fired on a hot day will show up with 500 rounds of steel cases leisurely fired in the course of a month. Maybe it’s just extra wear. We just don’t know yet. The jury is still out. You can take the risk for a range gun, but for SHTF it’s not worth the risk. You don’t want it to break when you need it to save your life.

Wolf is fine for those who accept the risk of using it. Based on its record “I” would not use it in an AR designated for SHTF duties because indications are it abuses the AR. It's not wise to abuse your primary equipment, especially SHTF equipment. You don't want to risk that a weakened extractor or other part breaking just when the MZBs are coming down the street. No Wolf for me, except for AKs.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:38:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:46:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:50:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:53:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 5:54:03 PM EST by nationwide]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
If you want to use crap ammo for practice, that's fine with me.

Just don't use it for SHTF ammo.




Agreed! Well, except for the "crap" part.



You know, even if you wanted to use it for SHTF, why the hell not???
Folks bag on the wolf ammo all day and all night. I've shot it for over 3 years and have NEVER had a failure with it.

YES, the old laquer stuff could gum up an AR after a mag or 3 of bump firing. But the assertion that an ammo that goes "Boom!" every time I pull the trigger is not suitable to defend my life is ludacris.

Keep in mind, you do get what you pay for. Wolf is NOT THE BEST ammo for SHTF.

But if it makes you happy and comfortable, the hell with all these desktop commando's.

Oh yeah... and prepare for incomming!!!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:59:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:01:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By gvidon212:
I am looking for some cheap training ammo to burn through my AR. Wolf seems to fit the bill for both price and reliability. Accuracay is not of paramount importance and neither is flawless function. My only concern though is the cumulative effects of buring a case or two of steel cased, polymer coated wolf through my rifle. Will this cause excessive wear or any residual buildup of polymer in the chamber that could affect funtion down the road?



There was NEVER any risk to using ANY Wolf ammo, except in rifles with match chambers...
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:08:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

But hey, if you want to use ammo that is among the worst you can buy for defensive use, by all means, go ahead. Your life is your own responsibility. If you aren't intelligent enough to protect it, I certainly don't care.




Hey, I qualified my remarks by stating in plain english that Wolf is not the best you can get.

With regards to Wolf being the worst ammo for defensive use, I disagree. The ammo that works in your weapon, and that you have on hand is better than no ammo at all.

Additionally, if you believe that an individual using wolf as a SHTF load is lacking in intelligence, you should reassess your ideaology. Preparation above all, is the key to success. Have a plan. Have some kit. NO, Wolf ammo will not win you a sniper match. NO, Wolf is not the latest hi-tech gee whiz mil-spec, white-cotton-panty-wearing-teenage-girl of ammo.

But, it will get the job done, reliably.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:48:10 PM EST
Two things:

1) Unlike other ammo, I haven't heard of KABOOMs attributed to Wolf ammo. The occasional stuck case or whatever - yes. But I'd much rather have that when plinking than my rifle actually KBing.

2) Higher pressure loadings will wear out your barel faster due to throat erosion. I would be willing to bet that you'd shoot out your barrel with M193 or M855 before your extractor bites the dust from the steel-cased ammo.

I would not be pleased to own a rifle which couldn't digest Wolf easily when plinking.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:52:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:
With regards to Wolf being the worst ammo for defensive use, I disagree. The ammo that works in your weapon, and that you have on hand is better than no ammo at all.



Well - it's better than nothing at all, but seriously - given the choice of 1000 rounds of Wolf or 500 rounds of M193 - I'd go for the M193. Anyone seriously concerned about SHTF should have a few extra $$$ to buy decent ammo and stash some away. I'm honestly not that worried about TEOTWAWKI, but I just feel much happier with 1.5K of Q3131A in the closet. I get all jealous when I think about brou's stash.

My name is Zhukov, and I'm an ammo whore.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:19:13 PM EST

Alright Wolf ammo hoards, tell me this, is Wolf working in AR180s/AR180Bs which lack a chrome bore?



Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:45:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 3:12:02 AM EST by Zhukov]

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Alright Wolf ammo hoards, tell me this, is Wolf working in AR180s/AR180Bs which lack a chrome bore?



Don't know about AR180's, but it's been flawless in my RRA A4 20" without chrome lined anything.

[Edited to add] That rifle had mostly shot the lacquered stuff BTW.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:34:43 PM EST
People please stop making up stupid shit things about the Wolf ammo, ie 1 Wolf=10 XM193 for wear. You guys need to stop pulling some of this stuff outta your asses. This is good blasting ammo that won't hurt your rifle. Keep inspecting your rifle for noticable signs of wear and replace parts if necessary. Christ guys some of us want to SHOOT our rifles, not just stare at them.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:02:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
People please stop making up stupid shit things about the Wolf ammo, ie 1 Wolf=10 XM193 for wear. You guys need to stop pulling some of this stuff outta your asses. This is good blasting ammo that won't hurt your rifle. Keep inspecting your rifle for noticable signs of wear and replace parts if necessary. Christ guys some of us want to SHOOT our rifles, not just stare at them.



ALPHA, that's not a bullshit claim. I personally know Zhukov, and he's a smart guy as well as a smart ass

All of the Wolf ammo I get my mitts on is .223 Remington, not 5.56 NATO. As you may be aware, 5.56 is so much hotter than .223 that SAMI declared it an "unsafe ammuntion combination" for use in sporting rifles chambered for .223.

I think Zhukov's comment was based on Wolf not being as hot as .mil ammo.

Zhuk, what say you?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:42:02 AM EST
I own a Vepr K in 7.62x39 and a AR-15 that uses 5.56x45 NATO.

The Vepr K was designed to use lacquer coated steel case ammo - no doubt about it because that is standard issue ammo for those countries.

Brass is softer than steel, you do the math.

If I were you, I wouldn't use Wolf in an AR-15 because an AR-15 was really designed to use brass cased ammo (that is what soldiers are issued). Not for nothing, but the Wolf ammo isn't as good (spec-wise) as say Lake City XM193.

A lot of folks use Wolf/Barnaul through their AR-15s without any problem.
I would save the Wolf/Barnaul (which are one of the best brands of ammo you can buy for your AK/RPK/Vepr) for the AK/RPK/Vepr (I can get about 1.5 - 2 MOA at 100 yd using Barnaul through my Vepr K).
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:46:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:
I think Zhukov's comment was based on Wolf not being as hot as .mil ammo.

Zhuk, what say you?



No. fully concur wiyh brou. Wolf does not fragment, and is therefore quite inferior terminally speaking. Jacking up the velocity wouldn't make any difference - the jacket is too thick. Check the ammo oracle for more information - it's the first post tacked. M193 is about 50% more expensive than Wolf. but that's still only $50 more for a case. Buy one case, stash it, and you'll be set.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:54:11 PM EST
People AREN'T buying this for self defense. They are buying it for cheap practice ammo. Why do people keep bringing up how terminally effective this ammo is?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:58:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
People AREN'T buying this for self defense. They are buying it for cheap practice ammo. Why do people keep bringing up how terminally effective this ammo is?



Because it came up in discussion. Duh! Reading comprehension a bit off?

Ya know.... its the same topics month after month, year after year.

Quite frankly, I am surprised Brou spends to time to reply in all these threads.... but I am glad he does. Being an ammo guru is a tireless, thankless job.....
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:59:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 3:00:10 PM EST by FALARAK]
.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:11:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 8:12:16 PM EST by tatjana]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:22:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By tatjana:
www.btammolabs.com/images/wolfsiren.jpg
Come, dear sailor, and dally for awhile...




Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:39:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 8:41:09 PM EST by El_Roto]
Wolf ammunition - recommended by 9 out of 10 Sirens!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:01:17 PM EST
Hmmmm the Wolf wont fragment when it hits the target. I can almost vouch for this as I sometimes test rifle bullets by firing them at lawnmower blades. The wolf ammo will cut through a lawnmower blade like a hot knife through butter. That might be a good thing if the target had mild ballistic protection. So I guess since all of you guys want to shoot fragmenting bullets maybe you all should look into buying hollowpoint ammo. That would probably make all of the rest of the ammo including wolf drop in price. I shoot it all. I have always shot wolf in my AK. Never a problem. You guys talk about brass being softer and the steel is hard on your rifle. That logic is illogical. The steel case wont stretch as much as the brass and it wont expand nearly as tight against the chamber and extraction is no more difficult than for the rifle to extract brass. I for one dont give a damn what you shoot. When the shtf I am gonna use whatever I can get my hands on. If I aint got nothing left I'll throw rocks. I think even the lowly wolf might bite harder than a rock. Don't get me wrong though. I have a few hundrud rounds of milspec stuff put back myself. But I dont mind wasting the wolf or the wal mart winchester stuff.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:12:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lord_Vulcanizer:
So I guess since all of you guys want to shoot fragmenting bullets maybe you all should look into buying hollowpoint ammo.



Please read the Ammo Oracle for more info about fragmenting bullets and what makes some ammo more desireable than others.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:34:52 PM EST
I don't need to read the ammo orical pal...I was being cynical....however you spell that word.

I hunt, I shoot for fun, I spent eight years in the military. I use different bullets for different things. When I hunt deer I want the bullet to enter the animal, expand and blow a big hole out the back. On small game I just want the bullet to make a small clean wound so as not to destroy the food value. Birds...I use what works as required by gov agancies. Shooting people are quite different. Most people have a tendency to give up fairly fast when shot. I personally dont give a damn if it fragments. A clean hole in the head or heart is gonna kill'em just as dead as a messy one. I carry a pistol with hollowpoints for up close. If things are up close a shotgun is my first choice, epecially around the house. You guys take some of this shit too serious. I shot expert marksman and I still shoot good. I can kill a guy just as dead with my 10/22. Believe it. Now that we see eye to eye you can have scotty beam your ass back up.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:56:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:02:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:44:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

Originally Posted By tatjana:
www.btammolabs.com/images/wolfsiren.jpg
Come, dear sailor, and dally for awhile...







+1 That was an outstanding way of making a point!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:00:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:31:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lord_Vulcanizer:
I don't need to read the ammo orical pal...I was being cynical....however you spell that word.

I hunt, I shoot for fun, I spent eight years in the military. I use different bullets for different things. When I hunt deer I want the bullet to enter the animal, expand and blow a big hole out the back. On small game I just want the bullet to make a small clean wound so as not to destroy the food value. Birds...I use what works as required by gov agancies. Shooting people are quite different. Most people have a tendency to give up fairly fast when shot. I personally dont give a damn if it fragments. A clean hole in the head or heart is gonna kill'em just as dead as a messy one. I carry a pistol with hollowpoints for up close. If things are up close a shotgun is my first choice, epecially around the house. You guys take some of this shit too serious. I shot expert marksman and I still shoot good. I can kill a guy just as dead with my 10/22. Believe it. Now that we see eye to eye you can have scotty beam your ass back up.

Wes



Glad you have found what works for you. Too bad you are ignorant of the facts... and have no desire to learn. That's kinda sad, in a way.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:47:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:28:37 PM EST
I read the ammo oracle long time back smart asses. I dont need to read it again just because someone tells me too. My first post was a smart ass response just like you guys are doing all the time Thing is you guys aren't smart enough to see it. I promise if the need ever arises for me to use any of my firearms in any way against another human being I will be completely successful. You think what you want. I just laugh at some of you guys and your ideas on shooting is all. Most of you try to reinvent the wheel every time you post. Thats fine with me because if I post some cynical shit and you guys make fun of that because you actually beleive it then that is cool cause I am sitting here laughing at you. LOL you guys. I just fired 30 rounds of wolf through my AR and guess what...it still works and my extractor is still in one peice.

Morons.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:33:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:40:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:43:14 PM EST

brouhaha
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Originally Posted By Lord_Vulcanizer:
Blah blah blah
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Yeah. That's called trolling.



Damn....been ratted out. I was bored and this thread was going nowhere dude. Even I need to start a little shit occasionally. Was fun now I am off for serious things to do.

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