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Posted: 7/3/2014 7:42:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 4:13:43 PM EDT by WILSON]
When the Brownells tool is only $40 and does nearly the same thing.



With the exception that it isn't designed to fit easily in a vice. You have to put the upper in blocks, then use two wrenches to accomplish the same goal.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 7:48:29 AM EDT
buy once cry once
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:00:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
When the Brownells tool is only $40 and does nearly the same thing.

http://i.imgur.com/XCOSjPf.jpg

With the exception that it isn't designed to fit easily in a vice. You have to put the upper in blocks, then use two wrenches to accomplish the same goal.
View Quote



Your last sentence is why, for me at least. The reaction rod is easy as hell to use.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:04:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2014 8:05:56 AM EDT by doaarms]
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:07:06 AM EDT
If your vice has pipe jaws the Brownells should work fine. Mine doesn't so I spent the extra money and got the Geiselle. Love it - makes it very easy to do any upper work. Some people feel these rods put stress on the upper via the barrel alignment pin when torquing a barrel so they recommend something like the DPMS upper receiver action block. It works pretty good also.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:16:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:30:42 AM EDT
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:42:33 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?
View Quote



Have access to a welder? Weld it to a receiver hitch...then use the hitch on the vehicle as a vice.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:44:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?
View Quote


Just get a vise for $30 and do it the right way. Home Depot, Lowes, Harbor Freight, etc. Harbor Freight even has torque wrenches for $20.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:46:00 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?
View Quote



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 8:49:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:41:36 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/3/2014 10:26:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2014 10:27:58 AM EDT by VBC]
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Originally Posted By glockr:
so they recommend something like the DPMS upper receiver action block. It works pretty good also.
View Quote


If my DPMS Panther Claw didn't work so well, I would get the reaction rod.

I have put some, at least what I think is, serious torque on the Panther Claw and it's performed wonderfully each time. This is specifically the DPMS Panther Claw, and not the other similar type blocks that are missing the insert part that goes up into and supports the upper.



Link Posted: 7/3/2014 10:56:46 AM EDT
With Brownell's tool, the barrel wrench goes in the vise, the Brownell's tool doesn't. That's why it doesn't need flats. Watch the video.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 11:34:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:41:27 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/3/2014 12:11:15 PM EDT
I like my Reaction Rod quite a bit. It makes working on uppers very easy.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 12:23:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2014 1:14:57 PM EDT by Justintime2]
Get the cheaper one then go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a $4 square drive socket cap set, 1/2" square drive side clicks into the tool and the 3/4" hex side clamps up firmly in the vice, works perfectly!
ETA: the price!

Link Posted: 7/3/2014 1:05:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jlficken:



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......
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Originally Posted By jlficken:
Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......


I hold one wrench and get the dog to pull on the other.

seriously though, the instructions say you can do it without a vice, but it basically just says use 2 wrenches and turn. I figure you just need to immobilize the Brownell tool somehow and it should work just the same as in a vice. So, if I can't do it just by holding the wrenches in my hands I guess I'll try something else to hold it solidly.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 1:08:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nehi:


I hold one wrench and get the dog to pull on the other.

seriously though, the instructions say you can do it without a vice, but it basically just says use 2 wrenches and turn. I figure you just need to immobilize the Brownell tool somehow and it should work just the same as in a vice. So, if I can't do it just by holding the wrenches in my hands I guess I'll try something else to hold it solidly.
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Originally Posted By Nehi:
Originally Posted By jlficken:
Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......


I hold one wrench and get the dog to pull on the other.

seriously though, the instructions say you can do it without a vice, but it basically just says use 2 wrenches and turn. I figure you just need to immobilize the Brownell tool somehow and it should work just the same as in a vice. So, if I can't do it just by holding the wrenches in my hands I guess I'll try something else to hold it solidly.


Please post a video of the attempt.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 1:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2014 1:12:36 PM EDT by DWood]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Justintime2:
Get the cheaper one then go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a square drive socket cap set, 1/2" square drive side clicks into the tool and the 3/4" hex side clamps up firmly in the vice, works perfectly!

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_24678.jpg
View Quote


Now that is interesting and I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I have heard of grinding flats on the Brownell's tool, but this would be far easier. The tool is made for a 1/2" drive, but that doesn't mean it can't be the part held in the vise.

PS I have the Reaction Rod and really like it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 1:14:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DWood:


Now that is interesting and I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I have heard of grinding flats on the Brownell's tool, but this would be far easier. The tool is made for a 1/2" drive, but that doesn't mean it can't be the part held in the vise.

PS I have the Reaction Rod and really like it.
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Originally Posted By DWood:
Originally Posted By Justintime2:
Get the cheaper one then go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a square drive socket cap set, 1/2" square drive side clicks into the tool and the 3/4" hex side clamps up firmly in the vice, works perfectly!

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_24678.jpg


Now that is interesting and I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I have heard of grinding flats on the Brownell's tool, but this would be far easier. The tool is made for a 1/2" drive, but that doesn't mean it can't be the part held in the vise.

PS I have the Reaction Rod and really like it.


It works great, I've built more than few AR's and wouldn't go back! The Reaction Rod is awesome too but there is absolutely no reason to spend the extra money in this case...
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 1:23:13 PM EDT
I just built two with the brownell tool. Just locked the forend wrench in the vice and installed with the tool. Easy as can be. Used the UTG PRO slim handguards. They came with a special wrench for them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 2:35:02 PM EDT
I like the G too. Its better.. but I saved my $50 for a G trigger instead.

Brownells tool is good to go.

Link Posted: 7/3/2014 2:54:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
I like the G too. Its better.. but I saved my $50 for a G trigger instead.

Brownells tool is good to go.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Ar15/Vice%20stand/22faeea7-3aa2-4468-867d-4cf9a5411c62_zps49b72ce5.jpg
View Quote


Does your wife know you're building ARs on her kitchen counter? You've built some VERY nice rifles, btw.

I use the Brownell's Upper Action Block for torquing down my forged uppers, but I use a Brownell's rod for billet uppers (e.g. VLTOR MUR) and muzzle devices. I picked up a short steel 1/2" square rod at the local Ace Hardware for a few dollars and clamp that in my vice.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 2:57:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
I like the G too. Its better.. but I saved my $50 for a G trigger instead.

Brownells tool is good to go.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Ar15/Vice%20stand/22faeea7-3aa2-4468-867d-4cf9a5411c62_zps49b72ce5.jpg
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That's exactly how I use my Brownell tool. Having a 1/2" breaker bar in the vise solves the problem.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 2:59:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By usptactical:


Does your wife know you're building ARs on her kitchen counter? You've built some VERY nice rifles, btw.

I use the Brownell's Upper Action Block for torquing down my forged uppers, but I use a Brownell's rod for billet uppers (e.g. VLTOR MUR) and muzzle devices. I picked up a short steel 1/2" square rod at the local Ace Hardware for a few dollars and clamp that in my vice.
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Originally Posted By usptactical:
Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
I like the G too. Its better.. but I saved my $50 for a G trigger instead.

Brownells tool is good to go.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Ar15/Vice%20stand/22faeea7-3aa2-4468-867d-4cf9a5411c62_zps49b72ce5.jpg


Does your wife know you're building ARs on her kitchen counter? You've built some VERY nice rifles, btw.

I use the Brownell's Upper Action Block for torquing down my forged uppers, but I use a Brownell's rod for billet uppers (e.g. VLTOR MUR) and muzzle devices. I picked up a short steel 1/2" square rod at the local Ace Hardware for a few dollars and clamp that in my vice.
The only thing my wife detests is when I cure Cerakoted AR's in her oven - have to do before she gets home from work. Need a curing oven - bad.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 3:56:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Justintime2:
Get the cheaper one then go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a $4 square drive socket cap set, 1/2" square drive side clicks into the tool and the 3/4" hex side clamps up firmly in the vice, works perfectly!
ETA: the price!

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_24678.jpg
View Quote

This idea makes the Brownell's tool work pretty close to as well as the Reaction Rod. Not perfect, but pretty close.

In actual use, the Reaction rod works best at a 30º or so angle above horizontal, so the Brownell's rod on a 3/4" bolt head won't be quite as stable because of the decreased contact surface in the vise, but it's still very doable.

OP, using two wrenches is NOT a "doable" way to get accurate torque. You need at least one stable base to torque against, or whatever torque you're trying to reach won't be what the wrench reads - your other arm will be the "variable" because it will either give a little or not give enough. A decent, inexpensive vise is pretty much essential to doing any upper work that involves the barrel.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 4:04:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By doaarms:
I have both. The Brownells version is round all the way down the length of the tool and spins if I lock it in the vise. The Geissele one is longer and has square edges on the end... it does not rotate in the vise. Very helpful when installing a barrel nut. With the reation rod you dont have to use an upper block, it takes the pressure off the upper receiver which under pressure can be damaged.
View Quote


This. Reaction Rod wins.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 4:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:41:19 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/3/2014 4:32:37 PM EDT
Magpul:

Link Posted: 7/3/2014 4:40:55 PM EDT
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 4:49:01 PM EDT
The reaction rods are good for muzzle devices, not so much for barrel nut installation...
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:34:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wools10:
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).
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Originally Posted By wools10:
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).

Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
The reaction rods are good for muzzle devices, not so much for barrel nut installation...


Can you guys elaborate on why they are no good for the barrel nut?
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:36:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wools10:
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).
View Quote


You Sir don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've used my Geissele reaction rod to assemble many uppers and it works far better than the receiver blocks.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:38:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
The reaction rods are good for muzzle devices, not so much for barrel nut installation...
View Quote


You're another one that doesn't know what the hell you're talking about. Like I just mentioned I've used my reaction rod to assemble several uppers. Works way better than blocks. Usually the people putting the reaction rod down have never used one or are too cheap to buy one.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:40:16 PM EDT
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Vaporware.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:43:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CitizenSoldier556:


You Sir don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've used my Geissele reaction rod to assemble many uppers and it works far better than the receiver blocks.
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Originally Posted By CitizenSoldier556:
Originally Posted By wools10:
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).


You Sir don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've used my Geissele reaction rod to assemble many uppers and it works far better than the receiver blocks.


I'm sure you have more than 44 years experience making up threads, and are also a licensed engineer. lmao.
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:46:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:41:10 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/3/2014 5:47:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wools10:


I'm sure you have more than 44 years experience making up threads, and are also a licensed engineer. lmao.
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Originally Posted By wools10:
Originally Posted By CitizenSoldier556:
Originally Posted By wools10:
The rods are bullshit. Anyone that knows how to "make up" threads knows you have to hold on to the part that's threaded (the receiver) amd the part threading onto it (the barrel nut).


You Sir don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've used my Geissele reaction rod to assemble many uppers and it works far better than the receiver blocks.


I'm sure you have more than 44 years experience making up threads, and are also a licensed engineer. lmao.


How does the machined shoulder of the barrel extension with a press fit alignment pin that interlocks the barrel and the upper receiver in the threaded area of the upper reciever impact thread "make up" in this application.

Thanks
Wes
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 6:06:11 PM EDT
With a rod, youre transferring torque from the barrel extension, to the receiver, to the nut. Holding the receiver, youre transferring torque from the barrel nut to the receiver, and the barrel extension is not involved other than providing resistance, (it goes straight in, it's not turned) In it's simplest form. =W
Link Posted: 7/3/2014 6:12:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:40:58 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/4/2014 5:25:39 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CitizenSoldier556:


You're another one that doesn't know what the hell you're talking about. Like I just mentioned I've used my reaction rod to assemble several uppers. Works way better than blocks. Usually the people putting the reaction rod down have never used one or are too cheap to buy one.
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Originally Posted By CitizenSoldier556:
Originally Posted By AlabamaPaul:
The reaction rods are good for muzzle devices, not so much for barrel nut installation...


You're another one that doesn't know what the hell you're talking about. Like I just mentioned I've used my reaction rod to assemble several uppers. Works way better than blocks. Usually the people putting the reaction rod down have never used one or are too cheap to buy one.
I'm not putting it down; I just prefer not to place all the rotational stress directly on the upper, with no support, when installing a barrel nut...
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 5:34:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jlficken:



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......
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Originally Posted By jlficken:
Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......


Put a long mag in your rifle, set it on a chair, sit on it. I can actually do it faster that way than with a vise.
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 5:48:50 AM EDT
If you are breaking a pin you are applying way too much torque.
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 7:40:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VBC:


If my DPMS Panther Claw didn't work so well, I would get the reaction rod.

I have put some, at least what I think is, serious torque on the Panther Claw and it's performed wonderfully each time.

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Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By glockr:
so they recommend something like the DPMS upper receiver action block. It works pretty good also.


If my DPMS Panther Claw didn't work so well, I would get the reaction rod.

I have put some, at least what I think is, serious torque on the Panther Claw and it's performed wonderfully each time.



^^^ x100. Almost ordered the rod, but after looking at the Mega recommended installation tools I bought the DPMS and have used it twice now with no issues. If ever I feel its needed I would get the reaction rod.
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 8:03:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
When the Brownells tool is only $40 and does nearly the same thing.

http://i.imgur.com/XCOSjPf.jpg

With the exception that it isn't designed to fit easily in a vice. You have to put the upper in blocks, then use two wrenches to accomplish the same goal.
View Quote


Because I bought my Reaction rod when it was $60?
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 8:14:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2014 6:40:48 AM EDT by Skillshot]
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Link Posted: 7/4/2014 8:45:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By codypc:


Put a long mag in your rifle, set it on a chair, sit on it. I can actually do it faster that way than with a vise.
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Originally Posted By codypc:
Originally Posted By jlficken:
Originally Posted By Nehi:
hmmmn, I just bought the Brownell's tool and don't have a vice or an upper block. Still doable without a vice?



How do you plan to torque anything to possibly 80 ft/lbs without a vise? Just curious......


Put a long mag in your rifle, set it on a chair, sit on it. I can actually do it faster that way than with a vise.


Dear god
Link Posted: 7/4/2014 8:48:27 PM EDT
Jesus, the stupid in here regarding this tools effectiveness is painful
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 3:13:41 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Skillshot:

I'm sorry GHPorter, but that is not correct. Holding the tool with a wrench in your hand or locking it in the vise provides the same opposing moment to counteract the moment of the barrel nut wrench.
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:

OP, using two wrenches is NOT a "doable" way to get accurate torque. You need at least one stable base to torque against, or whatever torque you're trying to reach won't be what the wrench reads - your other arm will be the "variable" because it will either give a little or not give enough. A decent, inexpensive vise is pretty much essential to doing any upper work that involves the barrel.

I'm sorry GHPorter, but that is not correct. Holding the tool with a wrench in your hand or locking it in the vise provides the same opposing moment to counteract the moment of the barrel nut wrench.

In theory, yes it's mechanically feasible. But in practice it's almost impossible to do this with any real control. When the better solution is a $30-$40 vise on a modest bench (or even clamped onto a dining table), if one is spending hundreds of dollars on parts to build an upper, it seems to be a poor sense of economy to try to torque your barrel nut without a vise.
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 3:24:29 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:

There you go. Agree.
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By wools10:
With a rod, youre transferring torque from the barrel extension, to the receiver, to the nut. Holding the receiver, youre transferring torque from the barrel nut to the receiver, and the barrel extension is not involved other than providing resistance, (it goes straight in, it's not turned) In it's simplest form. =W

There you go. Agree.

Since the torque spec for a barrel extension is something like 140 or 150 ft/lb, and since the index pin is also supposed to lock the extension onto the barrel, using a device that secures the barrel by the extension to apply no more than 80 ft/lb of torque to a barrel nut should not be an issue.

On the other hand, there is a whole lot of discussion about how there is torsional stress applied to various parts of the barrel/pin/extension/upper system during torquing, and it seems that most of this discussion ignores the fact that, by the time you're torquing the nut, nothing is moving except the nut.

Whatever you're using to secure the assembly, the nut turning on the upper is the only part that moves, so the part that receives torsion depends on how you're securing everything. If you're using a barrel vise, the barrel is what experiences torsion. If you're using a clamshell upper block, then the entire forward end of the upper receives the torsion. If you're using a "pivot lug only" block (like the DPMS Panther Claw), it's all on the pivot lug. With a Reaction Rod, or Brownell's tool, you're securing the barrel and only the barrel (through the extension) receives torsion. Unless you apply way more than the specified maximum torque to the barrel nut, either receiver extension tool will work safely.

My armorer instructor, who is a fairly large scale AR manufacturer, recommends a variety of tools to secure the parts when installing a barrel, including clam shells AND the Reaction Rod.
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 3:31:44 AM EDT
I would love to get one, but so far my upper vice block has done well for me. I wish I had one for an old rra that I took apart. They must have put that barrel nut on with an impact wrench! Most of my barrel nuts line up around 40 or so pounds and I haven't damaged an upper yet.
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