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Posted: 5/6/2004 8:03:44 AM EST
Just curious.

Corey

PS It doesn't matter one way or another for me. I just never thought that the MRF was involved in that trial, but in another thread (IIRC one of the YHM threads) someone mentioned that "Troy" was involved in the new "RIS II" trial.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:22:42 AM EST
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:27:59 AM EST
[quote]Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.


Wrong, who ever told you that is smoking something or worse. There are three systems in that program as discused here several times. KAC, ARMS, and D.D. period.
Jack
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:38:11 AM EST
How can Troy Ind. MRF be considered for any govt. testing when they only have one prototype, unless that lucky som bitch Corey is doing the evaluation.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:48:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.



Lee, why does it sound like the POF claims
Jack
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:51:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
How can Troy Ind. MRF be considered for any govt. testing when they only have one prototype, unless that lucky som bitch Corey is doing the evaluation.



That was what surprised me about the info that they were part of the selection process.

Well, not that I have the only Gen1 model in civilian hands, but the fact that by all accounts the Gen1 needs improvement and the Gen2 is only now ready to ship.

And I'm probably slightly less qualified to evaluate the MRF that than monkey that use to throw around suitcases in that old Samsonite commercial.

Corey

PS Jack, which DD model is being considered? Does DD have a "secret system" that they're holding back on? I thought the requirements included a continuous rail and removeable lower rail. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 9:52:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.



Lee, why does it sound like the POF claims
Jack



May I have your attention. "Good Shootin' Jack" has left the building.

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:09:34 AM EST
All I know is that it was rumored that 4 had submitted and LMT, was eliminated, leaving those three. What ever any of them submitted is anyones guess.
Jack
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:19:44 AM EST
Why was LMT eliminated? (If you know.)

Corey

PS Just giving you a hard time. I for one am glad you're posting again.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:47:26 AM EST
I think the two programs, the SCAR and the CQB kit are being confused. The CQB kit items had to be submitted by the 23rd of April. The Troy Ind. unit was submitted. To my knowledge the LMT was not. The CQB kit items are to be installed at unit level. Rail system, flashider, multiple magazine holder, compact cleaning kit, camo kit, tactical sling and a couple of other things. The LMT MRP systems is being considered in the SCAR-L and in my view the one to beat. What ever rail system is chosen on either program will have to be MIL-SPEC 1913, that is a given. BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:52:18 AM EST
LarryB...

I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation.


Don't hold out on us bro... let's see some pics!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:57:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By LarryB:
I think the two programs, the SCAR and the CQB kit are being confused. The CQB kit items had to be submitted by the 23rd of April. The Troy Ind. unit was submitted. To my knowledge the LMT was not. The CQB kit items are to be installed at unit level. Rail system, flashider, multiple magazine holder, compact cleaning kit, camo kit, tactical sling and a couple of other things. The LMT MRP systems is being considered in the SCAR-L and in my view the one to beat. What ever rail system is chosen on either program will have to be MIL-SPEC 1913, that is a given. BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry




That is the correct info.


Larry, Good to see you on line.

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 10:59:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 10:59:37 AM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 12:27:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By LarryB:
BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry


good to see ya here larry. actually, the one you have isn't the 2nd gen one - it was still a prototype/gen I, but done up for the benning presentation. no 2nd gen ones are out yet.
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 12:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
[quote]Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.


Wrong, who ever told you that is smoking something or worse. There are three systems in that program as discused here several times. KAC, ARMS, and D.D. period.
Jack



I thought ARMS was eliminated already and filed a protest law suit?
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 2:50:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By LarryB:
BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry



Well ain't that a bite in my ass. Wow two MRF's exist. Only thing is, I've seen more pictures of the Yeti and Loch Ness monster than the MRF. Just need to see a UFO and I will be thoroughly convinced the MRF exists.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 2:54:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
[Well ain't that a bite in my ass. Wow two MRF's exist. Only thing is, I've seen more pictures of the Yeti and Loch Ness monster than the MRF. Just need to see a UFO and I will be thoroughly convinced the MRF exists.


ok, 3.
www.militarymorons.com/weapons/weapons.1.html#troy
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:08:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By militarymoron:

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
[Well ain't that a bite in my ass. Wow two MRF's exist. Only thing is, I've seen more pictures of the Yeti and Loch Ness monster than the MRF. Just need to see a UFO and I will be thoroughly convinced the MRF exists.


ok, 3.
www.militarymorons.com/weapons/weapons.1.html#troy
cheers,
MM



I guess you missed my sarcasm.

Personally, I do not feel it is right to display something at an industry show and tout is availability, but do not have all the pieces together. At least the automakers say it is a "concept car". Put my order in (mid March) and patiently waiting for a rifle length MRF, but I will be pissed as hell to find out that they geared up production for a possible govt. contract while I continue to hear "shipping next week". Rather be told "really not sure when" so I can cancel the order and buy something esle.

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:55:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
I guess you missed my sarcasm.
Personally, I do not feel it is right to display something at an industry show and tout is availability, but do not have all the pieces together. At least the automakers say it is a "concept car". Put my order in (mid March) and patiently waiting for a rifle length MRF, but I will be pissed as hell to find out that they geared up production for a possible govt. contract while I continue to hear "shipping next week". Rather be told "really not sure when" so I can cancel the order and buy something esle.


nah, i knew you were being sarcastic
it's my fault for not putting a at the end of my post.
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 4:48:23 PM EST
Hm, I guess you don't pay much attention to Apple and its products, not that you should. Apple would introduce a new PowerBook, PowerMac, whatever, but it's never available for 30 days or more. Also the first iterations of its models, like many other first year models (even Mercedes) have teething problems.
I just wish manufacturers would get their stuff done right before releasing it for sale, AND THEN fix the problems they most likely have known about. As I stated in the past, I'm spoiled by KAC and ARMS, whose products rarely see revisions or fixes because they're done right the first time around.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:49:07 PM EST
MM, how did you get ahold of the Troy strike flashhider and when/how can I get one???

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:56:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By LarryB:
I think the two programs, the SCAR and the CQB kit are being confused. The CQB kit items had to be submitted by the 23rd of April. The Troy Ind. unit was submitted. To my knowledge the LMT was not. The CQB kit items are to be installed at unit level. Rail system, flashider, multiple magazine holder, compact cleaning kit, camo kit, tactical sling and a couple of other things. The LMT MRP systems is being considered in the SCAR-L and in my view the one to beat. What ever rail system is chosen on either program will have to be MIL-SPEC 1913, that is a given. BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry



Outstanding info LarryB!!

But please refresh my recollection on what SCAR is versus the CQB kit. Sounds like the CQB kit is a unit retrofit for customizing M4's (ala RAS and the SOPMOD kit) whereas the SCAR is a special forces rifle possibly hinting at future direction in rifles? Am I close?


Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

PS Jack, which DD model is being considered? Does DD have a "secret system" that they're holding back on? I thought the requirements included a continuous rail and removeable lower rail. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes...


C4



Oooooh, why oh why did I even ask that question??

You can't leave us hanging Grant! Any hints? Detachable lower rail?

I'll be good and won't tell another soul....


Originally Posted By 223Rem:

Originally Posted By LarryB:
BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry



Well ain't that a bite in my ass. Wow two MRF's exist. Only thing is, I've seen more pictures of the Yeti and Loch Ness monster than the MRF. Just need to see a UFO and I will be thoroughly convinced the MRF exists.



I have one upstairs. Can't say the same about Bigfoot or Nesi.


Originally Posted By 223Rem:

Personally, I do not feel it is right to display something at an industry show and tout is availability, but do not have all the pieces together. At least the automakers say it is a "concept car". Put my order in (mid March) and patiently waiting for a rifle length MRF, but I will be pissed as hell to find out that they geared up production for a possible govt. contract while I continue to hear "shipping next week". Rather be told "really not sure when" so I can cancel the order and buy something esle.




As I understand it, the MRF wasn't really suppose to be debuted at the SHOT Show. The story I heard is that it was suppose to be under the table for a few VIP's to see (some of which have probably posted to this thread), and one thing led to another and....

So, the impression that I got was that the MRF's debut was unintentionally premature.

I wasn't there, so I don't have any first hand knowledge. But after getting Gen1, I do believe that it seemed that Troy was rushing these things out the door to meet consumer demand, and that they might have let it go a little too soon.

If the info here is correct, I should be getting a Gen2 sometime next week. Unless of course Troy decides to get it in the hands of others (i.e., people who know what they're doing) to give them some user input on Gen2 before releasing it to the general public. Does anyone know if this type of "road test" has been done yet with Gen2?.

FWIW, with Troy Ind. trying to make the 4/23/04 entry deadline for the CQB kit, I can understand why they made that a priority over civilian sales. (Heck, I'd rather the MRF be a military adopted item so I have the HS/LD go fast gear.)

Corey
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:59:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.



Wrong, who ever told you that is smoking something or worse. There are three systems in that program as discused here several times. KAC, ARMS, and D.D. period.
Jack




Originally Posted By LarryB:
I think the two programs, the SCAR and the CQB kit are being confused. The CQB kit items had to be submitted by the 23rd of April. The Troy Ind. unit was submitted. To my knowledge the LMT was not. The CQB kit items are to be installed at unit level. Rail system, flashider, multiple magazine holder, compact cleaning kit, camo kit, tactical sling and a couple of other things. The LMT MRP systems is being considered in the SCAR-L and in my view the one to beat. What ever rail system is chosen on either program will have to be MIL-SPEC 1913, that is a given. BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry



Well, who's right here?
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:00:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By HKocher:
MM, how did you get ahold of the Troy strike flashhider and when/how can I get one???




WOW! I didn't notice that first time through. I thought it was a Phantom.

That looks nasty!!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:28:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corey:

Originally Posted By HKocher:
MM, how did you get ahold of the Troy strike flashhider and when/how can I get one???


WOW! I didn't notice that first time through. I thought it was a Phantom.
That looks nasty!!



the carbine MRF and midlength were loaners from troy for me to check out - i sent them back (i know, i'm nuts)
the troy flash hider is part of their CQB suppressor kit which includes the can mounting sleeve and hider. i guess you could get the hider by itself - check with troyind for pricing/availability.
and it IS nasty! those points are sharp, but they work both ways. one thing that came to mind was if you had to go to your secondary weapon and let your rifle hang, and the muzzle of the rifle was swinging about - that could take a chunk outta your knee. ouch! i'm sure i'm not the only one whose had the end of a hot barrel bang a knee or shin.
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 2:42:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By militarymoron:
....
the carbine MRF and midlength were loaners from troy for me to check out - i sent them back (i know, i'm nuts)



You always get to play with the coolest toys long before the rest of us. That might be worth the pain of having to send it back.



the troy flash hider is part of their CQB suppressor kit which includes the can mounting sleeve and hider. i guess you could get the hider by itself - check with troyind for pricing/availability.
and it IS nasty! those points are sharp, but they work both ways. one thing that came to mind was if you had to go to your secondary weapon and let your rifle hang, and the muzzle of the rifle was swinging about - that could take a chunk outta your knee. ouch! i'm sure i'm not the only one whose had the end of a hot barrel bang a knee or shin.
cheers,
MM



I have a friend with an older style Phantom and he says that has a tendency to catch on clothing, etc. So, I don't think this style FH is for me, but it's interesting to see how far the industry is taking this "strike" capability (from FH's to flashlight bezels).

I wonder if it wouldn't just make more sense to modify a bayonet with a "less than lethal" strike surface, that way it can be removed and installed only when the situation dictates (I dunno, crowd control, CQB??). It wouldn't work with a suppressor, or certain rail systems, but it's a thought.

But I digress....

I'm still interested in the details behind the SCAR program versus the CQB kit. Hopefully someone (Larry, Chen, Jack?) will be back online today and can answer that.

Corey
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:25:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 6:29:36 AM EST by giffmann]
The muzzle brakes are available seperately and are currently in stock at Troy. Retail price on them is $40.



The pic above is one of MilitarMoron's. Thanks for the use MM!

Feel free to drop me an IM if you are interested.

GIFFMANN

edited to add a pic
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:25:52 AM EST

But please refresh my recollection on what SCAR is versus the CQB kit. Sounds like the CQB kit is a unit retrofit for customizing M4's (ala RAS and the SOPMOD kit) whereas the SCAR is a special forces rifle possibly hinting at future direction in rifles? Am I close?



The CQB kit is for issue to troops being deployed to a combat zone. It is a M16/M4 compatable kit for unit level installation. Quantites are 847 per month with surges up to 3000. The SCAR is new Special Operations rifle. One of the main SCAR requirements is the ability to change barrels in 30 minutes (threshold), 5 minutes (objective). Changing barrels can be accomplished by changing uppers, but the LMT has this main requirement hands down.


Originally Posted By 3rdtk:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By SMGLee:
The MRF are being consider for the SOCOM CQB program. I am not sure to what extend.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Wrong, who ever told you that is smoking something or worse. There are three systems in that program as discused here several times. KAC, ARMS, and D.D. period.
Jack
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By LarryB:
I think the two programs, the SCAR and the CQB kit are being confused. The CQB kit items had to be submitted by the 23rd of April. The Troy Ind. unit was submitted. To my knowledge the LMT was not. The CQB kit items are to be installed at unit level. Rail system, flashider, multiple magazine holder, compact cleaning kit, camo kit, tactical sling and a couple of other things. The LMT MRP systems is being considered in the SCAR-L and in my view the one to beat. What ever rail system is chosen on either program will have to be MIL-SPEC 1913, that is a given. BTW, I have one of the Troy Ind. rail systems installed on an M4 and it is sweet. Mine is a second generation. Larry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Well, who's right here?



I am speaking to the SCAR rifle specs and to the Big Army CQB kit. As to the SOCOM CQB kit I don't have any knowledge, nor have I heard of it as current program.

Larry
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:28:41 PM EST
Corey,

Our RIS II submission does have a detachable lower rail. In fact, a user can detach the lower rail and FF mount an M203 in its place in less than 30 seconds without tools.

southern
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:39:04 PM EST
Southern,

Thanks for taking time to discuss barrels last night!

What's the chance of a pic of the submission just to wet our appetites??

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 2:35:46 PM EST
Marty,

Will we civilians be given the chance to see/purchase your RIS II in the future

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 3:58:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 4:43:38 PM EST by Corey]

Originally Posted By southern:
Corey,

Our RIS II submission does have a detachable lower rail. In fact, a user can detach the lower rail and FF mount an M203 in its place in less than 30 seconds without tools.

southern



So, let me get this straight.

Daniel Defense has a FF rail coming to the market that has a detachable lower rail?

WOW!!

WHEN??

How about something in the 9.5FSP flavor?

I presume it will be typical DD lightweight. Even if it is only installed by removing the front sight assembly and barrel nut (i.e., Wes ), who cares with the removable lower rail?

Something tells me that this is going to be the Year of the AR15!!

(Well, at least AR15 accessories, full capacity mags, etc. etc. etc.)



Corey

EDIT to correct typos. (Hey, I was excited, okay?)
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:03:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 4:45:42 PM EST by Corey]
This was a double tap from above. I hit "quote" instead of "edit."

Edit incorporated above, this changed to save space.

Corey
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:56:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By giffmann:
Southern,

Thanks for taking time to discuss barrels last night!

What's the chance of a pic of the submission just to wet our appetites??




You're welcome Giffman! The pleasure was mine.

We are not releasing any detailed info or pics until NSW Crane decides which candidate(s) will get the go ahead.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:09:54 PM EST
[quote]Originally Posted By Corey:
Originally Posted By southern:
Corey

So, let me get this straight.

Daniel Defense has a FF rail coming to the market that has a detachable lower rail?

WOW!!

WHEN??

How about something in the 9.5FSP flavor?

I presume it will be typical DD lightweight. Even if it is only installed by removing the front sight assembly and barrel nut (i.e., Wes ), who cares with the removable lower rail?

Something tells me that this is going to be the Year of the AR15!!

(Well, at least AR15 accessories, full capacity mags, etc. etc. etc.)



Corey

EDIT to correct typos. (Hey, I was excited, okay?)
[/quote
]


The Crane SOPMOD MD/NS program solicitation required the candidates to accept a grenade launcher that allowed it to be free float. The three candidates that anyone is aware of that did/do that are KAC, DD, and ARMS. They are evidently the three advanced systems the gov't down selected to choose from.
Jack
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:55:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/7/2004 6:58:10 PM EST by IPSC_GUY]
Ya know,
I bought one of the Troy suppressor mounting kits. Here is my quick story. I saw a tread with the contact info for Troy ind. and a picture of the collar and flash suppressor. Now this was just about the time I was getting my SPR close to finishing and I thought "HEY that might be an alternative to the OPS brake and collar" so I emailed Troy ind. and they said yeah we got em they are $85.00 so I sent a postal money order because that is what they wanted.
This was September of last year. One week goes by and email to see if they have received my payment and shipped my kit. No answer. One week turns into two and then into four. So now I start calling and the lovely Miss Wescott has no idea who I am or that have placed an order, with the "I'll have to get back to ya on that." Come to find out I am like the third person ever to order one of these and they aren't done in fact not even close.
February rolls around and I am told it will ship next week for three weeks in a row. At the end of the third week I am told the flash suppressor has to be sent out to be bead blasted??? Then it dawns on me that it is supposed to be a muzzle brake and not a flash suppressor. I quiz miss Westcott about this and she assures me it will be right.
TWO weeks later a package shows up in my door and I open it to find the BRIGHT SHINY CHROME PLATED looking collar and and a rusty A2 flash suppressor... So I call Troy and ask WTF it's not black it silver in fact it is BRIGHT silver and where is the muzzle brake. Miss Westcott relays all this to the owner who will not get on the phone till I DEMAND to talk to someone who has a clue. Finally the owner gets on the phone and explains that the collar is Nickel Boron plated because that is the sealing surface for the rear chamber of their suppressor... and the muzzle brake, we thought you wanted a flash suppressor. Anyway finally he agrees to send me out a muzzle brake which is what MM has on his website. Anyway the production collar is not black it is plated and bright and shiny. I was told that it will become black once you fire it with the suppressor on it. Ya know if they had sent me ANY info with the brake abd collar that would have explained that would have been nice. So that is my tale of dealing with TROY IND. I "figger" six months from now they will have it worked out or they will be out of business.

IPSC_GUY
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:24:24 PM EST
I think I've heard enough, on top of my little issue about no returning email (not a big deal, only I view it as an indication of the attention they pay to a potential customer with a credit card in hand)....I'll buy KAC, ARMS, and DD. Troy Ind. seems to have quite a bit to learn regarding customer service, till then I'll go with well proven and reliable manufacturers.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 10:27:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By giffmann:
The muzzle brakes are available seperately and are currently in stock at Troy. Retail price on them is $40.

www.hunt101.com/img/150650.jpg

The pic above is one of MilitarMoron's. Thanks for the use MM!

Feel free to drop me an IM if you are interested.

GIFFMANN

edited to add a pic



GIFFMAN,

So it's a muzzle brake, not a flash hider?

Is this a one piece design, or is the threaded suppressor 'collar' a separate piece? If so, what is the price of the brake plus the collar?

The one in the pic looks black to me. Any idea if the current models are coated black, or are they silver as IPSC_Guy received?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:36:00 AM EST
HKocher,
I specifically asked whether it was a flash suppressor or a muzzle brake and was told it is a brake. The brake itself is a seperate piece from the suppressor adapter. It's alternate name on the price list is the "MEDIEVAL MUZZLE DEVICE"

The entire supprssor mount kit is available as a complete kit which includes the guide, brake and thread protector. Pricing on it is $125.

I will have to get with Cheryl on Monday to see if they are now coated black.

GIFFMANN
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 8:14:11 AM EST
Duffy,

I do apologize if I have not responded to an email you may have sent. We recieve hundreds of emails a day, which can be difficult to respond to each and every one on a timely basis. Yours may have gotten lost in the shuffle. If there is anything I can do to help you or answer any questions you may have, please give us a call. (413) 243-9315.
Best Regards,

Cheryl
Troy Industries, Inc.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 8:19:42 AM EST
HKocher,
I spoke with Cheryl this morning and the brakes and the suppressor mount kits are nickel boron coated. The example that Military Moron posted has not, as far as I know, been coated with anything else except for the nickel boron. While it is not a true black, it does appear to be rather dark.

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