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Posted: 5/16/2013 6:27:00 AM EDT
Hi all,
I would like to replace the complete BCG of my Norinco AR15 with a DPMS one but I heard that Chinese parts could not be mil-spec and not interchangeble with mil-spec parts. I took measures of the DPMS and Norinco bolt (all measures are in mm.) Just comparing the measures do you think is it still safe for me to replace the Norinco bolt with the DPMS one ? Thank you. Here are the measures I took http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1479/boltnorinco.gif 
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Posted: 5/16/2013 6:50:30 AM EDT
[#1]
DPMS isn't mil spec either. I'd keep the Chinese one unless i had a problem with it.
The Chinese 1911's and M14 clones have an OK reputation, probably better than DPMS's. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 6:57:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for your answer, eodinert.
I thought DPMS was better than cheap chinese production. Only reason I got a Norinco AR15 is because I was looking for a 12" barrel and in Italy we can't receive barrels from USA shorter than 16". |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 9:14:29 AM EDT
[#3]
They have a reputation for breaking at the cam pin hole when run hard (at least the pre-cerebrus bolts do, they may be cross-polinating with with other freedom group manufacturers now, I don't know).
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Posted: 5/16/2013 11:31:00 AM EDT
[#4]
The Norinco bolt cannot be US military spec, since the Chinese don't have access to the official Colt/military specifications.
These are held close by the US government and Colt Defense, and only US government contract makers are allowed to have the plans. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 12:48:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Please post some close-up photos of your Norinco. I'm curious as to how they look inside and out. All I can find are blurry photos on the web.
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Posted: 5/16/2013 3:44:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
The Norinco bolt cannot be US military spec, since the Chinese don't have access to the official Colt/military specifications. These are held close by the US government and Colt Defense, and only US government contract makers are allowed to have the plans. Apparently you have never heard of reverse engineering. As noted already, Norinco made decent quality 1911's clones, M14 clones, and AK's. I would expect that your Norinco AR is fine and there would be no reason to replace the BCG. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 3:54:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Norinco does make underated stuff and I am sure it is decent but reverse engineering hardly means its qualified to call it "mil-spec".
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Posted: 5/16/2013 4:19:39 PM EDT
[#8]
If it head spaced correctly when gauged, the firing pin protrusion was in range, and it functioned correctly dry cycling it I would probably give a go.
I might hold it on the other side of the concrete bench away from my head the first couple of shots though. 
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Posted: 5/16/2013 6:06:12 PM EDT
[#9]
I would think they have a bunch of ARVN M-16s, only dropped once. So they must have plenty of M-16s and US made non military ones gotten on the open black market or shipped covertly from the USA. Just a matter of using inches instead of meters and making measurements.
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Posted: 5/16/2013 7:33:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Norinco bolt cannot be US military spec, since the Chinese don't have access to the official Colt/military specifications. These are held close by the US government and Colt Defense, and only US government contract makers are allowed to have the plans. Apparently you have never heard of reverse engineering. As noted already, Norinco made decent quality 1911's clones, M14 clones, and AK's. I would expect that your Norinco AR is fine and there would be no reason to replace the BCG. I think he was joking. I hope he was joking. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 7:54:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
The Norinco bolt cannot be US military spec, since the Chinese don't have access to the official Colt/military specifications. These are held close by the US government and Colt Defense, and only US government contract makers are allowed to have the plans. FN has the drawings/specs too. Of course, there's no such thing as industrial espionage, so there's no way the Chinese could suspect how to make an AR. Oh; oops! That's probably available somewhere in Wikileaks. Use the bolt. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 8:07:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Please post some close-up photos of your Norinco. I'm curious as to how they look inside and out. All I can find are blurry photos on the web. http://www.gunfactory.ch/langwaf/images/norinco_m4carabine.jpg Thank you all for your answers. I just bought a Norinco upper receiver only since I wanted a 12" barrel as I said above and we can't get here any barrel from America which is shorter than 16". Here are pixs of the Norinco upper receiver as it was when I got it, pixs being taken from dealer web site. 
http://www.tacticalsense.it/product.php~idx~~~2646~~Norinco+M4+12_+Upper+Set+Completo+_Upper_+Otturatore_+Canna+12~.html I disassembled all the upper receiver since I consider all chinese production really cheap and I only want to keep its 12" barrel and barrel extension, I would like also to replace the original BCG with bolt included, that's why I asked. I fitted the barrel over a Cerro Forge upper, with a Daniel Defense M1A RIS II forehand and a Hera Arms SL-C lineal compensator, lower receiver is of my Bushmaster. Here are the pixs of the Norinco barrel now assembled with new US components. 
Coming back to bolts comparison, I think head space is given by the difference of 2 measure : Bolt Lugs Hight - Round Recess in the front of bolt = R - T = 3.87 mm which is exactly the same in both compared bolts. So there should be theoretically no problems at all of head space. What do you all think ? Thank you again. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 8:18:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
The Norinco bolt cannot be US military spec, since the Chinese don't have access to the official Colt/military specifications. These are held close by the US government and Colt Defense, and only US government contract makers are allowed to have the plans. For sure a few details of Norinco are out of spec. For example I bought in the past from Brownells some AR15 spare parts included a pair of cam pins. I can perfectly fit a cam pin I bought in US into a bolt of my Bushmaster but I can't fit in the same Bushmaster bolt the Norinco cam pin which is larger and I think out of mil spec. The Norinco cam pin can't be also fit into the DPMS bolt I would like to use. Norinco barrel nut is also longer than a Bushmaster barrel nut. I can post later on in the day some close up pictures of all the Norinco parts I had sisassembled from original upper. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 8:21:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
If it head spaced correctly when gauged, the firing pin protrusion was in range, and it functioned correctly dry cycling it I would probably give a go. I might hold it on the other side of the concrete bench away from my head the first couple of shots though. That's for sure what I will do. 
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Posted: 5/16/2013 8:27:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Please post some close-up photos of your Norinco. I'm curious as to how they look inside and out. All I can find are blurry photos on the web. http://www.gunfactory.ch/langwaf/images/norinco_m4carabine.jpg Thank you all for your answers. I just bought a Norinco upper receiver only since I wanted a 12" barrel as I said above and we can't get here any barrel from America which is shorter than 16". Here are pixs of the Norinco upper receiver as it was when I got it, pixs being taken from dealer web site. http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3250/norincocanna1.jpg http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/285/norincocanna2.jpg http://www.tacticalsense.it/product.php~idx~~~2646~~Norinco+M4+12_+Upper+Set+Completo+_Upper_+Otturatore_+Canna+12~.html I disassembled all the upper receiver since I consider all chinese production really cheap and I only want to keep its 12" barrel and barrel extension, I would like also to replace the original BCG with bolt included, that's why I asked. I fitted the barrel over a Cerro Forge upper, with a Daniel Defense M1A RIS II forehand and a Hera Arms SL-C lineal compensator, lower receiver is of my Bushmaster. Here are the pixs of the Norinco barrel now assembled with new US components. http://imageshack.us/a/img811/3746/immagine012x.jpg http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7020/immagine014is.jpg http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2082/immagine015n.jpg http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7329/immagine016ur.jpg Coming back to bolts comparison, I think head space is given by the difference of 2 measure : Bolt Lugs Hight - Round Recess in the front of bolt = R - T = 3.87 mm which is exactly the same in both compared bolts. So there should be theoretically no problems at all of head space. What do you all think ? Thank you again. The DPMS bolt will work fine. The vast majority of Norinco CQs in Europe are already using DPMS bolts, imported by Nuova Jager IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 9:02:54 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:The DPMS bolt will work fine. The vast majority of Norinco CQs in Europe are already using DPMS bolts, imported by Nuova Jager IIRC.
Thanks for confirming me that, Mike_Anthony. I think all imported Norinco are using their own crap Chinese bolts. Nuova Jager is only building AR15 rifles using some Chinese components but Norinco CQA imported to Italy are completed with their own Chinese parts, as they come out of factory. Norinco were imported to Italy for the first time in 2009 by GunsTrade, now they are imported in large quantities by a few dealers and distributors like Palmetto, TFC. My Norinco upper 12" barrel comes from Palmetto. The DPMS bolt is going to battery without problems smooth like silk, it's just a little bit sharp when going out of battery and opening again. Will test it firing soon, hopefully. |
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Posted: 5/16/2013 10:39:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Here are detailed pictures of some Norinco parts, as you can see the finish is very cheap in most of them.
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Posted: 5/17/2013 2:20:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Actually, those parts don't look too bad. A little rough on the machining, but I'm sure they function as intended. Is that carrier chrome lined? And could you post a few photos of the barrel?
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Posted: 5/17/2013 2:51:46 AM EDT
[#19]
i'll be standing by for the forthcoming "my bolt exploded thread."
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Posted: 5/17/2013 2:55:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Actually, those parts don't look too bad. A little rough on the machining, but I'm sure they function as intended. Is that carrier chrome lined? And could you post a few photos of the barrel? The rough parts are not bearing areas, and the bearing areas, the rails, look fine. It isn't a "pretty" carrier, but it should work fine. As for how robust it is? That's a matter for testing and testing again. In for "torture test" results...but I'm not going to do those tests! |
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Posted: 5/17/2013 8:52:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Actually, those parts don't look too bad. A little rough on the machining, but I'm sure they function as intended. Is that carrier chrome lined? And could you post a few photos of the barrel? The bolt carrier it seems is gray park. The barrel is chrome lined. Unfortunatly I can't take photos of the barrel, I should remove the Daniel Defense forend to do that and I used Loctite to lock 6 screws of the plate. Sorry. I will take photos of the chamber and the barrel extension. |
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Posted: 5/26/2013 10:21:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
i'll be standing by for the forthcoming "my bolt exploded thread." I don't know if you use to do that in US either but in Italy we touch our nuts as a gesture against bad luck. 
I shot over 1,000 rounds with the new DPMS bolt and the Norinco barrel and BE and met no problems at all. Not even particular signs of wear over the star. Here is a short video View My Video |
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Posted: 5/26/2013 11:09:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
i'll be standing by for the forthcoming "my bolt exploded thread." I don't know if you use to do that in US either but in Italy we touch our nuts as a gesture against bad luck.
http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/15/938ace091738fb721bb486142bc91922/l.jpg I shot over 1,000 rounds with the new DPMS bolt and the Norinco barrel and BE and met no problems at all. Not even particular signs of wear over the star. Here is a short video View My Video Hey, that's great news!! Nice video. Oh, and the only place in America that people touch their nuts as a gesture is in New Jersey......but it's not because of bad luck. It's a Jersey thing 
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Posted: 5/26/2013 11:19:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Hey, that's great news!! Nice video. Oh, and the only place in America that people touch their nuts as a gesture is in New Jersey......but it's not because of bad luck. It's a Jersey thing
Thanks, Mike_Anthony. I think the headspace is given by (R - T) and in all the bolts I checked here (Bushmaster, Colt, Luvo, Norinco, DPMS) it is in the range of 3.85 mm +/- 0.05 mm tolerance. Until this measure is respected I don't see big risks for a kaboom. |
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Posted: 5/27/2013 1:30:50 AM EDT
[#25]
In short...no.
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Posted: 5/27/2013 2:08:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
In short...no. Do you mean to say "no risk" or .... ? |
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Posted: 5/27/2013 5:23:06 AM EDT
[#27]
The real question you need to ask is not "is my bolt milspec", but instead, "will a DPMS bolt headspace correctly"? This can be determined using head space gauges.
You can check this yourself if you buy the gauges, or take it to a gunsmith who has them: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/315921_.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)) As noted in a post above, you can also check firing pin protrusion, although if you are using a complete BCG from DPMS I don't think this is nearly as important: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=10379 NORINCO has made some good quality stuff in the past, although I know nothing about their ARs. I believe their m14 receivers were very good quality, but their M14 bolts had some issues with hardening, so who knows about their AR bolts. I will say that the pictures you provided would pass most AR15.com couch commando's standards for the most critical of all specs: staking, and lack of a MIM gas key! 
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Posted: 5/27/2013 7:50:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
The real question you need to ask is not "is my bolt milspec", but instead, "will a DPMS bolt headspace correctly"? This can be determined using head space gauges. You can check this yourself if you buy the gauges, or take it to a gunsmith who has them: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/315921_.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)) As noted in a post above, you can also check firing pin protrusion, although if you are using a complete BCG from DPMS I don't think this is nearly as important: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=10379 NORINCO has made some good quality stuff in the past, although I know nothing about their ARs. I believe their m14 receivers were very good quality, but their M14 bolts had some issues with hardening, so who knows about their AR bolts. I will say that the pictures you provided would pass most AR15.com couch commando's standards for the most critical of all specs: staking, and lack of a MIM gas key! Thanks for your answer, juslearnin. The original first question (" Is the Norinco bolt mil-spec ? ") arose since in Italy most of the AR15 owners use to say that Norinco are not mil-spec in many of their parts. Before proceeding to replace the original Chinese bolt with a bolt I bought in US market (at Brownells, being one of the few stores I know to ship overseas) I wanted to ask here. My intention was to keep of the original Norinco parts only the barrel with its BE. I used all other components bought in US (upper receiver, DD rail, BCG etc etc) I have a Forster Field 223" gauge but Norinco is chambered into 5.56 NATO and I would prefer not to remove any ejector from the bolt since I have not the proper tools to do that. That's why I wanted to take measures and compare both bolts before. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/headspace-gauges/colt-5-56-headspace-gauge-sku319418033-6646-15967.aspx Should the Chinese Norinco bolt be really mil-spec, any other after market mil-spec bolt should be interchangeble without problems without any need to check headspace, correct or wrong ? Thanks again. |
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Posted: 5/27/2013 7:56:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I have a Forster Field 223" gauge but Norinco is chambered into 5.56 NATO and I would prefer not to remove any ejector from the bolt since I have not the proper tools to do that. You can grind a bit off one side of the extractor groove to clear the ejector, and it will still work as a gauge. Also, a clamp and a socket that fits the bolt face (or a cut down case) can be used to hands free depress the ejector so that you can drive the pin out. |
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Posted: 5/27/2013 8:05:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Could you purchase a 16" U.S. manufactured barrel and have a Italian machine shop shorten it?
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Posted: 5/27/2013 8:11:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Could you purchase a 16" U.S. manufactured barrel and have a Italian machine shop shorten it? It would come very expensive since the barrel is 16" and must be tested with the official Proof Bank as it is. Then, once shortned to 12", it should be tested again. There is many burocracy behind and it is not an easy job like it is in USA. Difficult gay laws here... It would cost me as a complete AR15 rifle, no worth to do that. We also have in Italy some gun makers who use Italian made barrels, but I preferred a Norinco barrel since I was told it is not a low quality product and the complete upper Norinco was on sale a about $600. |
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Posted: 5/27/2013 9:17:41 AM EDT
[#32]
I can also add that nobody would send me from USA a barrel since I have no import license.
Whoever has an export license, like Brownells, can ship to me only $100 value of gun parts. No way to get one barrel directly from USA without going through an Italian authorized dealer who would cut my neck arising the sale price. |
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Posted: 6/11/2013 2:21:10 AM EDT
[#33]
500 rounds shot last Sunday, no problem at all.
My video BTW, I think [youtube] tag is not working or ... |
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Posted: 6/11/2013 8:33:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Bizio,
A little off topic...I was wondering how the .223/5.56mm ammo supply is there in Italy? That ammo is in short supply here in the US and has gotten more expensive. Can you run your 12" barrel without gov't approval? Thanks, openbolt |
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Posted: 6/14/2013 2:29:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Bizio, A little off topic...I was wondering how the .223/5.56mm ammo supply is there in Italy? That ammo is in short supply here in the US and has gotten more expensive. Can you run your 12" barrel without gov't approval? Thanks, openbolt openbolt, first of all I am sorry for my late reply buy I don't get notification emails to the topics when answered ... In Italy civilians can only use .223"Rem ammos and not 5.56 NATO wich are reserved to the Army. We have good stock here from S&B with 55 Grs FMJ bullet (? 55 for 140 rounds box ... $69 about) or from Fiocchi 55 Grs FMJ (? 20 for 50 rounds ... $25 about) We also can have cheaper ammos coming from Eastern Europe with steel cases but I never bought them for my AR15s. We can have 12" barrel withouth problems since according to European EEC law a firearm is considered a "rifle" when it's barrel is > 300 mm and its total lenght is > 600 mm. The barrel must be over limit of 11.81" which should almost match 300 mm. You're welcome. Bizio |
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Posted: 6/14/2013 6:02:03 AM EDT
[#36]
I doubt any Americans have any experience with Chinese bolts. Your best bet is to repost this in the Canadian hometown forums, since Canadians import new Norincos all the time.
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Posted: 6/14/2013 10:53:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I doubt any Americans have any experience with Chinese bolts. Your best bet is to repost this in the Canadian hometown forums, since Canadians import new Norincos all the time. Thanks, will do that. |
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